BREAKING! - 744 S/Os Shafted....
 

So what is the AOA planning on doing about the fact that all Second Officers on the 400 are now being held back from upgrade so that the company can hire and train more DEFOs?

All upgrades have apparently been delayed by 9-12 months. These poor ba$tards will be forced to stand by and watch while colleagues junior to them on the Airbus are upgraded and join the JFO pay ladder. This will obviously cost people money for the rest of their careers.

Que?
 

What exactly are you referring to? Is there an NTC or AOA update I've missed???

Are you suggesting the company is recruiting DEFOs to a HK base OR:
that 744 SOs are being "held back" until more junior SOs on the Airbus are upgraded instead? (which makes no sense whatsoever)

:confused:

quacker and all,

I'm interested in knowing how and where you've find out the seniority numbers of those JFO you mentionned to determine they're upgrading SO out of seniority. I would like to check it out for myself...

Just go online on intraCX and check the Sen.list and then go to the Flight Crew training site and see the names on the current/upcoming courses..

You guys should really demand the AoA to address this issue. It must be yet another breaking of the CoS that the AoA for once should persue instead of just writing letters! Put the lawyers on it! :ok:

If you think it is bad now, just wait until 2008 when apparently things will really slow down for Boeing S/Os. Several of my friends have had their courses delayed from Jan/Feb to Oct/Nov due to 777 direct entry FO recruitment.

Good luck with that. One does have to wonder what the point of membership is if they can't even address blatant violations of conditions. :confused:

If the AoA dont have the eyes on the ball on this one and manage to protect our S/Os that will be my final drop. Its a clear break of the CoS. The company is just doing what it wants and we are sitting back left with "our" AoA and doing nothing but writing letters. What a waste.

More to ponder!
 

Add to all this great news next year the plan is to hire 300 flight crew. They also plan to hire half as many SOs next year as they hired this year. We still need SOs so you know what that means.....get used to being an SO for awhile. The training department will be busy training DEFOs not spending more time and money upgrading SOs. WHERE ARE YOU AOA?!!!!!!!

Also from our COS:

"Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for approximately eighteen (18) months."

In the past this time has been extended due to 911, SARS, etc... But those times are behind us now, and with new A/C arriving every month and a huge order book, there is no reason that it should take 3 years for promotion to JFO!

With all the SO's suitable for upgrade at the moment, it's downright demoralizing to see all these DEFO's hired ahead of us. Not to mention in direct contradiction to our COS.

I guess the AOA is out of office for the holidays... I'm sure they'll sort this out for us in the new year...:oh:

I'm no lawyer, but I'll attempt to string together a few of CX's COS paragraphs, hopefully to highlight how SOs are ALL being shafted, not just those on the 744.

This is clearly not the case, so 6.3 is being used
Pretty clear that promotion is to be in seniority order.
The magical company requirements... The company requires FOs (and SOs)
Note that for the payment of bypass pay, the COS says SUITABLE, not selected as in COS para 7.1 above. So how does one become "suitable"?
From Vol 7, you need:
This is where the 18 months as an SO comes from; 12 months to complete modules 1 through 6 and achieve Grade A, plus 3 more modules at Grade A level. The individual is now SUITABLE for upgrade to JFO, hence bypass pay is required to be paid when DEFOs are recruited.
Note that the tech assessment is NOT a requirement of being a SUITABLE SO. The tech assessment is a function of being SELECTED and allocated an anticipated course date.

Hmmmm....
 

O.K. - before I join the angry mob that seems to be picking up burning torches and pitchforks whilst on the way to the AOA headquarters/CX third floor I have a few questions for those in the know. I would like to try & independently verify the pretty damning suggestions being made here:

1. How do I see who is on JFO course in Crew Direct? (I admit I'm a computer quamby & can see no such info in the many links provided on the Trg page.)
2. How did you guys deduce that -400 SOs are being delayed in comparison to Airbus SOs when the Seniority list is quite clearly a seldom updated and poorly administered database? (granted, that may be part of the CX "obscure & conquer" gameplan)
3. These claims should be easily verified by the SO joiners who were of "mixed course" about 2 years ago: ie there is often an even mix of 'bus & -400 SOs who all joined on the same day and within a few seniority numbers of each other: so are there any 'bus SO joiners who can confirm being recently favoured for JFO upgrades by 2-3 months over their -400 joiner comrades??

Before anyone asks, no I don't belong to management!!! I just like to get the facts before I follow the lemmings over the cliff...:uhoh:

well put Ex Douglas Driver!!

Well Well Well.

Just to let you young chaps in on a little secret. We realize some of you are rather new in the company and may not have noticed.

So here it is in the simplest way I can put it: “We do what we want, when we want and there is nothing You, the AOA or a Lawyer can do about it”. Quite simple really, your COS is just a piece of paper.

You will get nothing until you are Cat A’d. We will not Cat A any S/O until a course is selected so no bypass pay until that happens. This may be 3 months before your course starts.

Enjoy the view from the back seat. With DEFO’s and age 65, you will be there longer; you may as well start enjoying it.

To my Bonus and a very nice one indeed.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every pilot for helping US maximize our bonuses. We realize some of you are away many nights but I am home every night and keep regular sleeping hours, so thank you for reducing physiological rest. We realize it is legal and no one uses fatigue as an excuse and get the job done. From the bottom of my bonus, I thank you.

Merry Christmas and enjoy this festive season.

The Management

Hmmmm...

The Management is starting to blow his (or her) cover! He's got the SO upgrade process backwards. The actual process is:

- Cat A is granted after 1 year of mods, and more specifically, after the first Mod 6, assuming that the mods went reasonably well. (Cat A doesn't mean that you are going to be upgraded, just that you are elligible to be assessed - just another one of those silly CX hoops).
- Assessment is typically being done one or two months before the upgrade course date is granted.

Both of these facts can be confirmed by perusing Vol 7 or a call to real management.

Thus, The Management obviously isn't a manager, nor is he an SO... So, that leaves us with a disgruntled FO or Capt...

And all of you folks out there who thought he was a real manager... ha! (Still, too bad his sarcasm so often rings true...)

With S/O upgrades being out to 4 year’s(longer with DEFO's and RA 65) have you known any S/O receiving bypass pay for a year or more?

Enjoy the view.

To my bonus!

The Management

That's my point. Being Cat A'd (or more correctly, Grade A'd) doesn't mean you receive bypass pay as an SO. Semantics, I know, but any manager would know that (especially as most of our managers seem particularly good at semantics!).

Cover blown!

The Management Quote:

COS means nothing to CX
 

This is not a joke people. Airbus Second Officers ARE being given JFO courses before more senior Second Officers that are on the Jumbo. Why because the Jumbo guys have to do a full type course, whereas the Airbus guys are already CCQ on the A330, meaning a very abbreviated course. What is next? Commands only being given to First Officers already endorsed on type? :mad:
And they are NOT getting bypass pay because they are not being assessed. Despite the fact they are Grade A. Despite the fact they have done their Upgrade Interview. Even if they were getting the money, it is capped at First Year JFO. So a colleague that joined after them, but by luck went onto the A340, will be making a lot more when they are QL after six months or so. :{
Why is all this happening? Is it because the company doesn’t have sufficient capability to conduct training. Or is it just trying to save money? Why train a SO when you can just recruit a new FO and train them. It means you don’t have to then train someone else to replace the SO. Are they now having trouble finding people that are willing to join as a Second Officer? :hmm:
And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

Near Miss,

And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”.

Interesting, just went through the incoming mail for the last month. Only 2 from SO's neither giving us any information about any breaches of COS. Both replied to with requested information.

The GC can't do anything if they aren't told and then they have to fit it in between flights and home life. The sooner you pass on info the sooner it will get looked at, or perhaps you're not a member.:confused:

Well surely the AOA should be proactive in spotting and taking action against alleged breaches of COS and not soley relying on letters from S/O's etc. After all this is why people pay there subs is it not?

BusyB, there are more ways than just letters for SO's to contact the AOA. I have been told that when they have phoned, they got the "We have sent a letter to the company on your behalf". Maybe I should tell them to write it as well.
Oh and my membership is not the issue here. It is the way the company is treating it’s Second Officers.

Yeah blame it the NON-members - are they not entitled to having their CoS followed or what?? And if the AoA has already had two emails from "members" is that not enough - do you need 10 or a 100 letters or what??

I know for a fact that the AoA has been contacted in the past with regards to keeping a finger on the pulse w. regards to the S/O upgrade and transparency! Now lets get the AoA to try and work FOR the members and non-members for that sake - instead of just sending letters!! A lot of us are starting to get fed up with "letters here and letters there". It seems to me that all the AoA is doing is just that. A lot of talk and NO action. Now get onto it! :ok:

I hate to add facts to an angry thread but here goes. Disclaimer: it is midnight and I spent about 30 seconds looking at crewdirect

The junior 777 FO on the seniority list is 1607, the junior Airbus Fo is 1660.

There are currently 11 -400 SO's with seniority numbers lower than 1660. If you look at the master roster you will find at least 5 of those 11 rostered for a 777 or a 330 yup a 330 course in January.

Sorry for the logic, flame away:ok:

Exezy,

How can you be proactive against alleged breaches. Think about it! Your subs pay for the office, Ifalpa membership and Insurances. In fact if an SO we are probably subsidising you. No GC member gets a cent of your subs its all done in our own time.


Near Miss,

Emails are best then the entire GC has the opportunity to read them. Phone calls will get an off the cuff reply from anyone in the office but not everyone who may have knowledge in that area necessarily hears about it.

The issue here was your whinging about the AOA.

CBC

The 2 emails weren't about this subject. If you want to help let us know. As for helping non-members, they already benefit from any improvements we secure. If they want individual attention I suggest they join.
Yes, SO upgrades and bypass pay are regularly monitored and any irregularities questioned but this thread appears to feature a new problem so give the facts in an email to the AOA and we'll look into it.

Interesting what Ex Douglas Driver brings up...being SUITABLE (and getting bypass pay more importantly) happens by holding CAT A for 3 modules over 3 months...nothing to do with the "board assessment".
Quote:
This needs further investigation...

Semantics I know, but we decide who is suitable and when. This directly affects your bypass pay. Easy really, saves us great amounts by not paying bypass pay and this is reflected in my bonus.

You don’t need to read the contract or our Volumes, we do what we want. “Suitable” is a very ambiguous word.

Enjoy being in the back seat for longer.

To my bonus

The Management

BusyB,
Fair enough, instead of whining on pprune, affected SO's should write an email to the AOA.
In the meantime, if you are on the GC, can you chat with the other members and point them towards this thread?

The Management, your posts about your bonus are getting really old and boring. Piss off.

To all others, Happy Holidays! And don't forget to thank your SO for making your bed.

Throw me a bone here...

Where in the COS does it say SO's get by-pass for extendees???

...The same place where it says SOs on the 744 are to make the bunks!!!:}

I can confirm that guys who started 2 weeks ahead of me in Adelaide are upgrading 2 months behind me. The only reason being that they are on the 744 and me on the bus.

It's about to become a lot more than 2 months I think.

A friend on the Airbus who joined several months behind me has been given an JFO course early Mar. I have yet to hear about a 777 course for myself...the rumour is end of April or beyond.
So, there definitely is a problem with 744 SOs being delayed for upgrade.
I too am wondering why I am a member of the AOA and seriously beginning to wonder why I am in this airline.
However, Merry Christmas to everyone anyway...:sad:

The 2 bus guys directly behind me have JFO courses in Jan and I was told to expect mid April for 777. Wasn't given the Bus option(not that I wanted it). Also when DH was showing me what I concluded was the 777 training plan for 08 and the number of 777JFO courses over the first half of the year, I questioned him on the first column which read 777 Induction(NAM) and after asking what that was he sheepishly said DEFO 777 for North America, a quick glance showed several every month for as far as I could see down the page, at leat 10-12 for the first half of the year. I am on bypass pay and will be on it for almost 7 months by the time I get a course, which also will be almost a year after my upgrade interview. So delayed course will mean delayed Ql and delayed FO1 pay, and there is no bypass for that!!

I was told all year that assessment for me was in December, course on the 777 in February or March.

So far I have not received an email or letter regarding assessment, but an Airbus S/O who joined the same week has me has.

Most recently I was told course in June or July.

777 SO's
 

Are the 777 SO's in the same boat as the 400 SO's or Airbus SO's? First 777 SO's should be getting close to hearing something.

Amen brutha!:D

If the company is so short on training resources - give the jumbo SO's a short course to upgrade on the jumbo!!

777 S/O Upgrade
 

Same team, same dream, right?

Yes, it looks as though those few are being delayed as well. I think my mate said April/May, then recently, when he inquired, was told late 3rd Quarter 2008. So far, at least 5 months delay.

Now you're really flying. :ok:

DrunknSailor

You must have been looking at the HK based list. The most junior FO on the Airbus is most likely the most junior pilot in the company.

I vote that all 400 SO's should go on strike - by not making the bunks - until this issue is resolved. That'll show em'!

I must have missed the bunk making ground school. Surprising considering all the other sh!t Cx makes you do as an S/O.

Just do a sloppy job of it, untucked corners and no chocolate on the pillow.

:E

MAX:cool:

Or...
 

Well this is just another "biting off the nose to spite the face" idea of CX management. Short term ideas men who pat themselves on the back everytime they think they have shafted the pilot body and saved a few cents.
So, if i were a S.O, pissed off at the delay in my up-grade, pissed off at a 3% pay rise and most definitely pissed off at an extended time as an F.O due to R.A 65, well i would get my F.O endorsement and start looking elsewhere. With your time as an S.O and your new shiny endorsement there would be plenty of airlines willing to hire you. As an Australian, well we know whats happening down there, nice to have a 777 endorsement now. (covers 787 too luckily).
So what i am saying to you all is that, this is CX, this is their M.O, it aint going to change, so, unless you just love living in Hong Kong, LEAVE!!!!!
One of my buckets is nearly full, am preparing myself mentally and educationally for a future outside of this profession. (Just in case)
Things to look out for in the future, 3 man long haul to Europe and 20 hour duties. R.A 65 wont be a problem, it will be guys keeling over at 60!!!!!!