Capt,

That golf cart is in far too good condition!!!!

Yes I've decided to give my SELF a payrise. By quitting the AoA I will get another 1% more. Show some teeth you bunch or a lot shall follow. Face the fact.

Good morning everyone,

I think CXflyer has given an excellent overview of the events of the last few years. Given the events, I think it is an excellent indication of what we can look forward to, and it isn't pretty.

The sole reason that our pay and benefits have eroded over the years is because pilots keep coming to CX to do our jobs at lesser pay. It started with the B scale and if you take a peek in the Headland, it is full off of new joiners willing to accept, what are we at, an H scale.

CX couldn't care less if you are unhappy in your job, just as long as you are going to work. He will of course take notice, if you leave and go elsewhere. Dakotas, the Lion Rock are full of whining pilots who do nothing, just whine.

Probably the biggest reason the AOA hasn't been able to win anything at the bargaining table is because we are all willing to take from one group to achieve something for another. The B scales want to whittle down A scales, yet they joined saying they would do our job for less. ASL did the same thing to the B scales. The bases lost the 13th month for a meagre gain for the HKG pilots. I could go on but I think you get the message.

The important thing is to think for yourself, don't be swayed by the outspoken halfwit beside you. It has been my experience that they are the first to turn and run. If you see a better offer out there, take it, otherwise quit whining. Moreover, tell the AOA what you want and hold them to account.

Nuff said!

westcoastcaptain
 

It is very easy and somewhat expected that we will look to blame other groups amongst us for our lack of personal financial progress. The truth is we are run by an organisation that uses phrases like CRM and HRM the same way I jumble up the letters when I play scrabble - purely for point scoring.

We work in a 3rd world country with 3rd world environment with 3rd world taxes in a 1st world company taking advantage of 3rd world labour protections.

The 'imposed' payrises equate to around 1 - 1.5% of our fuel burn - that should put into perspective how much effort and thought has gone into this payrise imposition. Fuel costs have gone up several hundred % over the last few years....the salary/PF cost per pilot has gone down!

We are just a cost item on the ledger...nothing more.

westcoastcapt,

Good morning to you.

Let's see. You're on a YVR base, making CDN$, and you've just been given 10 more years on A scale.

No wonder you're not whining!!

A bit of a win for a select few isn't it? And he's sick of hearing the rest of us whine... :yuk:

Back to you 2 Cents,

I don't recall CX having obligatory service, so may I ask why did you join at lesser pay. Me thinks you are part of the problem.

?
 

Pleb88: "Have credibility. Don't include those who lack judgment"


NC: get the facts straight. His best friend is a sim instructor
NC: with CX and slept with her before I did.


Hmm ... well that's Ok then?
Apparently your point is made Pleb.
The Committee has an idiot.

West Coaster, you just trying to wind me up aren’t you.:hmm:

First of all grow some balls, you allowed B Scale to come in the first place. Didn’t you get a raise for it? If YOU didn’t allow this to come in, we would not have this problem.:mad::mad:
Your group would not stand up to CX. CX said wow, pilots are spineless. Let’s keep trying them on, and they did. It didn't affect me attitude.:D:D

Same as your A Scale brothers helped train the ASL pilots and it’s the ASL pilots fault. So when the new joiner F/O’s arrive on the new Unified pay scale, it is their fault because WE don’t have the balls.:ok:

Typical of your group.:mad:

Play time is over children now lets start to focus on the schoolyard bully and not each other!:ok:

Mr Bloggs,

Rather than take personal shots I suggest you stick with the real issues.

What do you mean we allowed the B scale to come. That is probably the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard. What do you suggest we should have done. Stood at the airport, physically grabbed you and sent you back to your home port.

Using the same profound logic, one could say that you allowed ASL to form or you let CX hire DEFO's. The Headland is full of new hires ready to do your job at even lesser pay. On my next trip over hopefully I'll see you in the lobby, ready to wrestle them to the floor and then out the door, never to be seen again.

It is this same elementary level of thinking that is allowing this mess in the first place. So responding to your opening remark, if your balls are tied to your use of logic, then me thinks........

Ya gotta laugh!!
 

Well once again a post has turned into a slagging match b/w pilots. The company would love this stuff, well done guys. So when our union seeks us to stand together to fight the company they can count on us........yeah right!!! Stop blaming others, it is our own fault and by the looks of things, it aint changing soon!

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to send this out in the hope that some of our committee members might just by accident see it and hopefully they may start to do what is demanded of them. I know that NC is doing the best that he can and we seem to always dump everything on him, and he is only one of the group..and getting onto the aoa forum, well thats moderated and so if they dont like what i type it doesnt go online so i guess this is a good medium, if only more of the comittee would take a look here..

I just wanted to know why the communication from the AOA is almost non-existant? We used to get lots of good comms a while back but recently i hardly see jack from them, except the normal bs from ST..sorry but i dont trust that guy as far as i can spit!! And could we possibly be more privy to what you guys are actually thinking about when you go forth to negotiate for us? And i would pay a little extra to get some proper and professional negotiators to help us get what we are really worth. Our guys tried but it hasnt worked so why cant we look at other options here? Maybe we could take the A scale salary that we pay JF and put that towards our negotiator kitty?

This post i understand isnt quite inline with this thread but it sort of is as well...hope that we can all start to smile one of these days, remember when you used to enjoy going to work? THey were the good ol' days, i am sure alot of you will say that will never happen again, and maybe thats true but as that famous dude said, years ago..."I have a dream, that all pilots will be paid a fair and respectful wage, that pilots will work overtime and not want to be paid for it, where pilots will do all they can to minimise costs to the company"..M.L.King...

Iwanna
 

My 2 cents worth.
I don't believe that 'professional' negotiators would make any difference as it is not an IQ/logic contest. If it was we would win hands down every negotiation. It is about power. We have no power as we have no weapon other than reason. We demonstrated that several airlines from our source countries earn more and have received greater payrises but at the end of negs they just ignored that and came up with their predetermined figures.

Having said all that, I don't think anyone on the GC has any objection with professional negotiators. I don't think CX will negotiate with non pilots though.

The new GC has been sorting out what we collectively think is the best way forward. Unfortunately this has resulted in an apparent comms blackout but is just the natural consequence of seeking consensus amongst 19people before publicly transmitting.

For what its worth I trust ST - I couldn't work for him if I didn't! It is difficult to write something that represents the disparate views amongst the membership and the GC.

We went in asking for a reasonable payrise - just to cover some CoL changes and exchange rate losses. We asked for in excess of 30%(Jul 01-Jul10) and we got 3% imposed instead. EK has had 41% in payrises over the last 5 years and we have had......

JF's salary is SFO B scale - and thats after 15 years of service.

Our thoughts now....well we have a wide cross section of pilots covering much of our demographics. We are looking at many options...contract compliance, legal contest etc etc.

I think about half the GC look at PPRUNE(well thats how many have told me off for what I say here;-) - but we are cognisant of the 'squeaky wheel' bias of this site. Best thing to do is write to the GC with what you would like to see happen...all emails are treated confidentially! CX have a pretty good idea who most people are on here and I can ASSURE you they read PPRUNE.

NC,
Well I guess JF can't complain, by the looks of things I'll have been here for 15 years and still be on SFO B Scale wages too.
As an aside if ST is so trustworthy why does he keep endorsing !!!!ty deals??

REALITY CHECK!!!!!

First of all NC; apologies for my remarks. History will prove them to be true or false.

First of all - A scalers let the B-scale happen!
Sorry A scalers! We all know that the only force able to stop the hiring of crew on lesser pay scales is the currently employed group of pilots.
We all know there is always someone out there who will do your job for less money, if not for free.

A scalers, B scalers - You are all responsible for ASL, integrated patterns, C scale, Veta, COS 99, etc....

Do you see the patten here?
When I hear an A scaler, B scaler, ASL pilot complaning about a pilot joining on lesser conditions than him... and blaming that person for taking the job it makes me sick!!!!!!

It is up to the CURRENT pilot group to maintain the standards they currently enjoy.
The only time here at cx that my cos did not go backwards was from the day the 49ers were fired, until MG got the presidency of the aoa.

We had CX tied up from all angles, rostering, contractual, etc... all we needed was time!

MG won a huge rostering case in the HK courts and damages were awarded to over 900 cx pilots but MG squandered the opportunity to make any improvements.

Then there was the 49ers deal!

NEED I SAY MORE!!!

The lack of transparency and communication from the aoa since MG and ST have been in charge has been terrible.
We used to get weekly updates (at least) with all the details with past presidents.

(Is everyone aware that an aoa member is seeking legal counsel to clarify an alleged rule breach by our beloved union?)
Has this been communicated to us in any of our recent newsletters?
This is a very important allegation!!!!!
If you call the office they will downplay it to the extreme.

ACCOUNTABILITY, and TRANSPARENCY, Where are they?????

NC, you and your comittee are in major !!!!!
The fact that you have identified yourself on PPRUNE as a comittee member is a disgrace in itself!
Your number crunching is great, but the fact that you made it known that you were a serving comittee member reeks of stinky politics and is extremely unprofessional!!!!!!

WAKE UP AOA!!!!! You are losing it! Get some new leadership that represents your membership.

It is up to US membership!

Is the CPU going to be my only option?
If so, bring it on. At least they have put out a few newsletters in the last few months.

AoA members????

Raise HELL and storm that office!!!! Make JF earn his B+ scale salary. (plus P-fund)

Make our Leaders accountable!!!!!
Phone and ask lots of questions about the RULE BREACH!

WAKE UP!!
PLEASE!!!

Numero,

Pardon my question - this is not an attack, just asking for your opinion/thoughts....

In your previous post you state that you don't think the GC would have any objections in having professional negotiators nor would CX be willing to negotiate with non pilots. Is this fact or your personal thought ?

I ask this because firstly, I am not happy with the results of what the GC has come up with and secondly, I for one, would be willing to pay extra to have professional negotiators to represent us. If CX is not willing to speak to 'non pilots', then why is it ok for a 'non pilot' to be the current DFO ?

Would it hurt us in at least trying another avenue (professional negotiators) ?

If not, then why not try this ?
If so, then what is the point of belonging in the AOA or, even the AOA existing ?

NC

Do you or any GC members you know of regret having given up on the 49'rs or atleast the ability for the AOA to fund their legal fight after this last blow to the goodwill we have shown?

SAD,

There is so much more involved that it is not something that can be openly written about on here.

Yes, I think it could have been handled better by ALL involved. Managerial quarterbacking is merely pointscoring and totally unconstructive.:bored:

some answers
 

19 weeler,
my identity was the world's worst kept 'secret' - it was brought up during negotiations by CX. I have always tried to post under the assumption that everyone knows who I am. That helps restrain me from saying things like
"NC, You are PATHETIC!
Always have been, and always will be."

You have the benefit of anonymity, I do not. I liked CPRUNE as at least we knew that almost everyone on the forum was a colleague. ON PPRUNE we do not have that certainty. But at least you have one viewpoint of the GC in the public domain...people want transparency....I am transparent!

SAD,
I was not on the GC when the 49ers deal was done. I can say that I was very unhappy with the double vote...as I was last year with the RP07 double vote. I believe we should live with the consequences of our own rules even though they are somewhat undemocratic.
Anyway, those issues are a can of worms...so I will leave them unopenend!

The rule 'breach' that 19 weeler refers to...I don't think it is any secret that some(many) are unhappy with what happened last year with RP07 - some have contested that it was illegal. I am no lawyer but I must admit I saw nothing illegal in the path that was taken. As far as I can tell it was within the rules...but then thats law for you, 2 opposite opinions for the same rule.

Hellenic,
not sure if it is their policy or an unwritten rule. I remember the abacus wouldn't negotiate with JF as he really disliked/hated JF. There are many issues that are quite difficult for an outsider to negotiate/appreciate. My point is that negotiations are not a game of poker or 21. Negotiations, in my experience, are about the company legitimizing the impending imposition of whatever changes they wish to implement. We went in wanting to discuss salary and salary only. What do you do when the other side says that there are other agenda items and that the deal requires recommendation from the other team? It wasn't a negotiation...it was 9 weeks of time wasting to make the final lowball numbers look semi legitimate because of the length of time it took to reach them.

As to what is the point of being in the AOA? I ask that question of myself every day. I can't see how things can be better if there was no AOA! We have little influence with an AOA - but I can't see that things would be better if we had no AOA. There are the ancillary benefits of LoI insurance and some help in cases of D+G etc. But joining the AOA is not the panacea to our industrial weakness. Are the 40% of nonmembers any better off than us? I am probably one of the more cynical amongst us but that is because I have spent more time dealing with CX than most!

sirhcttarp
SO bypass pay seems to rely on being 'assessed' - but not sure as I havent read that anywhere recently. FO command bypass pay is dependant on you NOT being cat D. So assessed or not, you are eligble for bypass pay as long as you are not cat D.
You will hear many people say that they are not getting bypass pay even though they are coming up for command. That is because there are only 20 or so pax CN extendees that generate bypass pay and there are at least that many Cat B and Cat C FOs.

But looking ahead...lets assume every CN extends to only 60...in late 2012 there will be between 270-300CNs beyond 54 - ergo there are potentially 270-300 SFOs eligible for bypass pay. Now here is the gotcha...if you sign over to CoS08 you do not get any bypass pay and no one else gets it in your stead. SO if the most senior 300 SFOs included 150 on bases, only 150 FOs would get bypass pay -those on CoS99.

So if you are more than 5 years away from command now, as you get close there could be between 250-500(if everyone extends to 65) extendee CNs which means that at even 100 commands a year you could be getting bypass pay for up to 5 years. Every year on command bypass pay is worth over $400K HKD plus you are entitled to CN's benefits...so housing and J class FOC presumably!

clear as mud?

NC asks: Yeah, we are about 1-3% of our salary better. :cool: