COS 08 - This is not about pay
 

This is not about pay
It's easy to miss the point here. For the company, this is not about a pay deal. This is about solving their long term crew shortage. We simply gave them a viable method to negotiate this in, and they ran with the ball.

Here's a few truths:

They are not favouring A scalers!
Look at it from their perspective. They need pilots, and they need them now. The easiest solution is to extend the retirement age, and yes, it happens to be A scalers that form that group. Many A scalers are C and T, and most will stay on for another 10 years. Maintaining their current pay and even offering a small rise is chicken-feed in order secure such a large group of pilots.

DEFO is another easy and fast way to crew new airplanes.
The sticking point here ( as with other items ) is that they want us to endorse it for them. They can then say that it was ratified by the members, and they are seen to maintain harmonious crew relations.

B scalers are easy to deal with.
The company doesn't need to offer most of you a pay rise of any consequence. Most B scale F/O's are not experienced enough to take commands with other airlines ( you'd be there already otherwise ??) , and those that are will be close to command here, and will get a pay rise then. B scale captains will get a pay rise when they move into C and T.

We simple made a big mistake when we allowed the pay talks to evolve into conditions of service talks.

Rice Pudding me old chum what a load of c:mad:
How many A scalers refused the offer of extension on B scales, even to fly the clapped out freighter????????????? not f:mad: many
They don't need to offer the A scalers A scale to extend, they would sell their mothers to stay, even on the B scale.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.....................
what ya smoking? some have even been offered direct entry command in KE for goodness sake. And a lot of F/O's have considerable jet command time before they came here.

It is about pay my friend, B scale NEEDS a pay rise. A scale doesn't ( not until we catch up to you, which may happen in 17 years!! )

What a load of crap.....


Thats is probably the stupidist thing I have seen on these forums in ages. You need to get a life pal.

Finally some common sense.

No, this is not about pay, but solely about crewing an expanding airline. They need the 55+ crowd to stay on and pax / freighter integration to make the freight side work. Nothing more!!!!

Turn it down and walk away. If CX says there will be chaos, so be it!!!

ACMS dear chap, I think that you've misinterpreted what Rice Pudding is trying to say. If you read your own post you're actually agreeing with our friend!!

"How many A scalers refused the offer of extension on B scales, even to fly the clapped out freighter????????????? not f many
They don't need to offer the A scalers A scale to extend, they would sell their mothers to stay, even on the B scale.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating....................."

As you said, not many A scalers are refusing to fly as a Bscaler..so why, would the company decide to extend their terms on an A scale basis? They are EXTENDING the A scale by ten years..Please ask yourself, if it was about the pay..why on earth would CX go down this path, if as you stated, they could indeed crew the aircraft with the A scale deciding to extend on the B scale?

Rice Pudding, totally agree with you. Its the Big picture strategy that CX is taking and they've nearly got checkmate.. UNLESS all the A scale are going to vote no..chances of that happening??

yes the company are desperate to keep the A scalers and they think this will do it. My god the A scalers were accepting B scales to extend so why offer A scales? Don't forget a lot of 3 rd floor managers are extendees on B scale wages. The GMA will reap a fortune when he goes back to A scales, and he was on the negotiating team!! go figure.:=

It might not be about money to the company in the first instance, but it most definitely is to the B scale community.

They should give all B Scales an immediate 15% payrise and at 55 A scales come down to B scale. The A scalers would still be better off than they accept today. ( ie B scale, no PF, no education, no housing, fly freighters etc etc )

Nice logic ACMS, i mean it really is, no sarcasm.
I feel the only problem is, if the A scalers are willing,(or probably out of necessity) willling to extend above 55. Then what is the likelihood that they won't take a massive offer like this. And boy, is it a massive offer!

With the likelihood of a GUARANTEED 10 years at A scale, as opposed to a MAYBE better terms and conditions for everyone if its a UNANIMOUS NO vote, then most guys would take the 10 years offer. Not that people don't care, but as you said, to the pilot body, its about the money.

If everyone can get their head around the fact that CX is trying to keep the experience, AS WELL AS to divide and conquer the pilot body(they've succeeded on this front)..then..people will be more convinced that a stand together is going to bring CX to its knees..

Now ACMS, go and convince everyone to stand together, and its going to be bloody hard with everybody hating each other!

I agree. My feeling is that this vote will fail miserably and the A scalers wont get A scale after 55, they're dreaming.
So isn't in their interests to accept a good package of current B scale + 15% WITH ALL THE COS instead of the crap they are all accepting now?
It's what the 3rd floor like to call a 'win win"
-A scalers get a guaranteed extension to 65 if they want it on quite a good salary WITH all the perks.
-B scalers get a good pay rise of 15% + and don't feel they've been screwed once again.
-CX get a unified pay scale

seems fair to me?

ACMS....you just don't get it do you boy? The company has offered the deal they have to A scalers for one simple reason...they have to. There are too many legal and operational implications looming to do otherwise. The problem is that they feel they don't need to offer a good deal to B scalers. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Why don't you direct your seemingly limitless anger and envy against the REAL enemy....the management. They are the ones with the obscene bonuses, the fat pay and all the other benefits that, seemingly you only seem to resent when it is fellow pilots that seem to enjoy some of it...

The company is very clever in how they have put this together. Most of the Captains (including many B-scale Captains) will vote for it. Many of the more senior FO's will also vote for it. Regardless, even if the package is voted down, the company will still implement age 65 and UFO.

Why don't you (and your other misguided colleagues) figure out how to draw ALL the pilots together and find a way to send a message to management. Remember, the management is responsible for your present pay and conditions....not the A scalers. Grow up a bit.

don't call me boy.................................you condescending ...d:mad:

That's right Freight dog, the company wont be forced into giving A scales. The A scalers are just using that as an excuse to hide behind.
They could do the honorable thing a vote no, but I suspect the offer will be too good to pass up.
They could accept my proposed B scale +15% AND all the COS perks to stay here till 65 and it would be in a legally binding contract which they accepted,
there wouldn't be any "legal and operational implications"
Of course the selfish sods wont do that.

ACMS (boy...:E). you must be a really pleasant guy to fly with....:eek:

I fly with an All B scale crew now, and 99% of them agree.
I used to fly with old and crabby A scale Captains, got sick and tired of them talking about their Ferrari. ( I am not joking mate, they always dropped into the conversation something or other about their cars or houses or boats )

you're right though, I need to take a chill pill.

But for some reason this just grates on my nerve.

If they'd have given us a half decent payrise of say 15 to 20% then I probably wouldn't care too much about the A scale extension.

...can't resist the irony?

to quote ACMS... 'I used to fly with old and crabby A scale Captains'...

What type of Captain do you think YOU will be, based on your attitude demonstrated here on PPRUNE...?

I'll be the A scalers poor cousin, just like you. And doing the same job as them.

You know what really ticks me off......Pilots who say they will do our job for less pay, then whine and complain about the conditions they have accepted.

Surely you, ACMS, read the contract before you signed it!

I thought basic reading and comprehension skills were a prerequisite for a job at CX.

The problem with ACMS is that he is one of the first B scalers, B+ at that. So close to the elusive A scale. I suggest also a cat D F/O, hence a little miffed with CX and all those crusty old A scale Captains. Can't wait to fly with you. I know who you are, and with your attitude can see why you will never make command, here or your next airline. Kind of explains his venom and a chip on both shoulders.

Actions Not Words
 

Guys, I think it is fairly obvious that this deal is unacceptable to most cx pilots. We are at a crossroads, if we don't at least try to get a better deal, we are as sealing our fates for ever as well as those of our colleagues to follow.

I would normally agree that CX will only take notice of people leaving, but in this case, they have offered a huge pay rise to a group that have repeatedly demonstrated willingness to continue on any terms available. This doesn't make sense. I suspect they believe they can keep the expansion on track simply by keeping the A scalers happy.

But extending the A scalers will only work if they have us on side as well. I think we actually have an opportunity here to influence the deal. I believe we should demonstrate that all B scalers are unified in opposition to tiered pay scales past 55. I am suggesting a very polite but firm letter to the company, with as many B scale signatures as possible indicating that this proposal is simply not on. The actual details could be sorted out by online editing until we get the finished product.

What do you think? We have to do something, this deal is like a thief in the night stealing our futures.

PS I would be proposing a merging of the scales somewhere in the CN increments

Get this back to being a pay negotiation
 

Can I suggest we all band together for a 3 tier strategy:

1. Write to [email protected] and politely tell them you do not support this proposal.

2. Send a circular email to your collegues, telling them you do not support the proposal.

3. If it goes to the vote, then vote NO.

We need to get this back to being a pay negotiation.

IMAWINNER

I think you will find ACMS is a TC or at least a line captain on the B777.

ACMS

Mate like you I am a “B” scaler but only an FO. I am far from pleased at what has been offered but your shots at “A” scalers will result in a friendly fire incident. While I concede some “A” scalers will jump at this offer, we need to keep everyone onside. United we stand, divided we fall.

Personally I feel the AOA should reject the offer but still put it to a vote. That way it sends a clear message to both the company and the AOA GC that they need to do better, substantially better, especially when it comes back with a resounding “NO” vote.

Regarding retirement age 65. After reviewing contract law from my uni days and getting off the phone to a legal friend of mine that I went to school with we are both of the opinion that if the HK government does introduce age discrimination laws, it won’t make our contracts for retirement age 55 null and void. We all signed our contracts of our own free will so they stand, period. All it does is allow those that want to, to approach the company to up their retirement age to 65 i.e. COS08. I think it is the job of all “B” scalers to try and convince our senior “A” scale colleges that it is in all our interest to reject this offer until the company comes back with a substantially improved one.

The more I think about this the more I am sure the company has deliberately set the cat amongst the pigeons so as to cause division. Gentlemen and women we must refrain from going down this path for if we do it will lead us nowhere.

Not about pay?

Absolutely! It smells like the Dragonair offer. All about an increase in productivity with the minimum of a pay increase (reduction in the KA case!)

Swire have realised the pilot shortage is going to bite!

correct, it's about Pay. It's about how little they can give us but keep us interested enough to stay. It is only their first offer. It will get better.

GMA
 

If GMA is a direct beneficiary of this biased offer, can't we pass it to the ICAC?:ok:

Please excuse the emotive rant; I've been up for 32 hours now (4 hours in the bunk doesn't count) and if they ever talk about 3-man ULH I'll cry.

ACMS, as much as I like where your head's at, when I talk to people who have been here longer than I (most people), the result of turning down the first offer will either mean it will be imposed anyway as an improvement to COS or be thrown out completely as we had rejected it. I wish I could believe otherwise.

Although PPrune is sometimes a haven for malcontent, it does offer valuable insight into the wider issues affecting not just one group of aircrew. As an AOA member, I await the outcome of the GC's decision whether or not to support the proposal.

Hong Kong is all about making money. To that end, the local population is encouraged to be part of a compliant, efficient, money-making team. "Same Team, Same Dream" (wasn't that communism?) Enter Jo Pilot, a member of an educated profession taught to question everything and all of a sudden questions like, "Why are we not given even inflationary pay rises when the Company is making record profits?" don't make any sense. Apart from the obvious cynical responses, that about sums it up for me.

Put another way, the Company (I really dislike using generic terms, I'd much rather use individuals or bodies) arguably didn't need to pay us any more in the past and so, as has been the case for the last 14 years, our conditions have eroded, or become more efficient dependant on which office you occupy. There's an air of change at the moment. We are told people are leaving, there will be a pilot shortage and that the Company (there I go again) will need us in the coming years. Is this really the case?

BB

Stick to the facts, Please!
 

One of the main reasons I have always avoided anonymous forums such as Pprune or the AOA, is the continuous mindless ranting and drivel. My sole interest in COS 08 is due to the fact that given the circumstances, this is indeed a dismal proposal.

A few facts;

1. Pilots continue to accept reduced contracts saying that they will do your job for less money. A...B...ASL...DEFO. So if you were the employer, why would you up the ante. The sole reasons that they are extending pilots on A Scale salaries is a) they are already on that salary and
b) many are not accepting the reduced package and are choosing to go elsewhere. They need these pilots to facilitate expansion.
Have a peek inside the Headland. It is full of potential recruits willing to accept an even lesser package, just like many of you did in 93. And no, these pilots are no less capable. Many have come from the same squadrons as many of us. Don't overvalue yourself.

2. CX will only respond if pilots choose to leave. Most companies, airlines included, expect a turnover of staff at least 10%. For a pilot body of 2000 at CX, that is 200 pilots. A trickle of even 25 pilots is not even a concern.
Nick Rhodes doesn't care if you are upset about your contract when you go to work. What matters is that you are going to work. So again, if you are that upset, why are you still here. Or better yet, why did you join in the first place? See my first point.

3. In order for B scale salaries to rise, A scale salaries have to continue to rise. It is simple economics, but given the ranting, many of our colleagues cannot seem to grasp that. Force my salary down and yours is reduced in the long term.

4. CX uses the excuse, changing legislation in many jurisdictions, to justify 55+. Ironically, there is lots of other legislation that is just as important that they choose to ignore. Paternity leave and employment equity are just a couple of examples.

5. This is not about pay but crewing an expanding airline. They need the pax / ASL agreement to solve the freighter issues.

6. Yes, they may impose a pay rise, but they cannot facilitate contract changes without your agreement. And that is what they need!

7. No, don't even consider any kind of job action. I recall quite clearly our last action that caused the dismissal of many capable pilots. Ironically, some of my former air force colleagues were the most vocal and talked a great line. Yet, when the chips were down, they were the first to turn and run. They know who they are. Pilots say many things when they can be anonymous but are rather timid when they have to say their name.

8. Don't make a bold demand unless you are willing to follow through. Imagine sending CX a strongly worded letter, signed by many members, saying that they must up the ante or these pilots will quit. If CX says thank you for you resignation, what do you do now? Ask the AOA for help.

There it is ladies and gentlemen, the facts

To be honest, given some of the mindless drivel, poor spelling and grammar one might think we are overpaying some of our members.

Cheers!

Some very sage advice on this forum. The reality is simply this. Any (ANY) contract offer that has ANY improvement is a gain. From what I have been able to ascertain from others who have been here far longer than I, many times in the past the AOA/membership have rejected contract offers that have included improvements in pay and benefits, only to find that the next offer is far less valuable. This has happened several times over the past 15 years.

Other than the Luddites such as ACMS. most of us should realise that this contract includes some definate improvements. Is it the contract that we want....no, it is not. Is it overall an improvement, one could argue it is. I would rather take what is on the table now, and then build on that in future negotiations. Anything we reject now is something we may not attain for a long time to come. Any improvement to pay raises the base that the NEXT negotiations must improve on. It seems that many of the people on this forum seem stuck on the idea that somehow the A scalers are the real problem in this offer. As a B scaler, I would rather see the upper end of the scale continue to improve...becuase history shows that that is the only guarantee that our own conditions will follow suit. The offered contract has improvements to my pay NOW. As of Jan 08 I will be earning more than I am at the moment. Take what they are offering, and then immediately start agitating for more. Don't turn down more money. The history of this airline shows that it always results in a lesser offer the next time round.

ps. the issue of 65, the A scale and DEFO will happen regardless,...so explain to me why I should turn down a pay rise being offered...?

Yup, looks like the scare tactics worked on you. Do you actually know how many offers have been re-presented with the second being lower than the first, or are you just taking your soon to be extendee Captains word for it?

JTR. Instead of adhominem attacks....why don't you address the 'facts' that I stated. Since 94 CX has, on several occasions, offered lower secondary contract offers after initial rejection of the first offer. That is a fact. What 'strategy' do you happen to have up your sleeve that will result in a 'better' package for us? At my previous airline, we always took any improvement that was on offer....then went on the attack for the next gain. So answer my question: ' why should I reject a pay raise that is on offer'...and what leverage do you suggest we have to force a better deal out of management at this time..?

ps. regarding my 'soon to be extendeed Captain'....what airline in the world pays it's most senior pilots LESS...and what exactly is the benefit to those of us on B scale to see that happen...? Sometimes working for CX is like being Alice in Wonderland!

...further thoughts: we seem to be under the impression that we have CX management on the run. This is a rather comfortable illussion that has frequently led to miscalculations in strategy and negotiation. I suggest that many of you consider that the recent turbulence in the US markets could become a full blown recession. It only takes a few weeks for the world economies to reverse course. If this should happen, any suppossed leverage we may have against the management will vanish. Better to take the pay raise now, then start work on improving the other areas of dispute. In a few weeks, we may all wish for the 11% average they are offering.....

ATY. Instead of adhominem <sic>attacks...why don't you ATFQ?
In a little over a decade I can only think of one "deal" that has been re-presented at a lower level. More than happy to be proved wrong, but lets not run scared hey?
You speak of gains and improvements. From your post I get the feeling you have not been here that long i.e. not in the LHS or close to it. Are you happy to see your time to move seats blow out 3+ years for each step in return for a paltry rise?

- You really are new aren't you?

If age 65 is legally forced in then the company has to continue paying bypass pay to ALL who are entitled INCLUDING those not yet on the payroll. How about looking out for others? Ever wondered what housing benefits S/O's used to get before the current deal? Perhaps those in the fold looked out for those yet to come?

Market forces will likely force them into paying A scale for extendees due to the other choices around.

Bear in mind this is bigger than just your pay packet right now and the alleged -3 to 11% par cut/rise.

At the time losing 5-4-3 was not a big deal to the 777 guys as it meant they could get better rosters, I wonder how they will feel about it when they start doing long-haul?

All I am is asking is don't vote because you are scared of what someone told you the company might do. Vote for your future.

yawn....:zzz: let's make is simple for you. Two questions:

1. Why should I not take the raise on offer?

2. What strategy (details please) do you have to 'force' CX to offer more?


Couldn't care less about your attempt to belittle and demean. Whether I have been here one year or 20, common sense still applies. I have studied the history of this company since the mid 80's, and one thing is exremely apparant, and that is that CX never gives in to pressure or threats. In 99 they were prepared to shut down the airline and use wet lease if need be to break the pilots. They have decided to do what is necessary to operate the airline safely into the next period of it's growth. Many of us here seem be fixated on a resentment of their seniors, rather than a resentment of the real problem, which is a rather mean and arbitrary management.

So, answer the two questions with clear logic and reason. If you can 't do that...well,.....:oh:

ps. a rather pointed example of 'cutting off our own noses to spite our faces' was when Nick was offering A scale Captain for ALL captains...but we decided not to take the package it was contained in. I wonder what all the present B scale captains think of that brilliant strategic decision now. Take what we can...fight for more later. :E (just love these smilies)

Imagine, trading away your only trump cards, a unified pax/freighter deal and 55+, for a measly raise tied to productivity. Pretty cheap!!!!

West coast. Refer to my two questions above....answers on a post card please?

Apple Tree Yard
Because the company has also shown in the past that when it is required it can sweeten a deal. Housing and DEFO pax/freight comes straight to mind.
We don’t have to do anything except vote no and sit on our hands. Even if age discrimination laws are introduced in Hong Kong it will have no effect on our contracted retirement age of 55. The company needs this more than we do and I will bet my left testicle they are prepared to come back with a better offer. This company is training constrained. Even if none of us were to resign before the age of 55 they still couldn’t undertake all the training that is required to drive the expansion.

Westcoatcapt and Apple Tree Yard = Management.

Come back and chat when you have some idea what you are talking about.

404 Titan,

You keep stating "United we stand, divided we fall" we did not do that for the 49'rs so now with all this we are getting what we deserve. Are you still "united" in their legal fight?

My friend, Apple Tree yard
 

The pay raise they are offering pales in comparison to the spectacular profits and rising inflation and much of it is tied to productivity increases. In other words, you are expected to work harder, just to keep up with inflation. Moreover, it doesn't become effective until next year so inflation will wipe out a significant amount of your gains. In other words, you are further behind before you even start.

What to do. Nothing! Just do your job. Remember, the company needs these COS changes to expand. It's rather simple. Really.

Apple Tree Yard

Disagree totally with you when you say always accept any payrise thats offered. Its a little carrot with a huge bloody stick hiding behind it.

Lets see it from the perspective of an SO. He must sign away bypass pay, longer time to FO upgrade/command with age 65/DEFO etc etc for what?
A measly pay rise that will never even come close to compensate for his losses.
On a SO salary of 32 000 a month the payrise equates to one semi good night in Lan Kwai Fong. Any SO would be well advised to not give up all the above mentioned for less than 1000 HK $ a month extra.

The pay talks and COS talk should be split into two separate issues.:*

Ok. Good answers, fairly made. Will give some more consideration and reply later. ATY