COS 08 - This is not about pay
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COS 08 - This is not about pay
This is not about pay
It's easy to miss the point here. For the company, this is not about a pay deal. This is about solving their long term crew shortage. We simply gave them a viable method to negotiate this in, and they ran with the ball.
Here's a few truths:
They are not favouring A scalers!
Look at it from their perspective. They need pilots, and they need them now. The easiest solution is to extend the retirement age, and yes, it happens to be A scalers that form that group. Many A scalers are C and T, and most will stay on for another 10 years. Maintaining their current pay and even offering a small rise is chicken-feed in order secure such a large group of pilots.
DEFO is another easy and fast way to crew new airplanes.
The sticking point here ( as with other items ) is that they want us to endorse it for them. They can then say that it was ratified by the members, and they are seen to maintain harmonious crew relations.
B scalers are easy to deal with.
The company doesn't need to offer most of you a pay rise of any consequence. Most B scale F/O's are not experienced enough to take commands with other airlines ( you'd be there already otherwise ??) , and those that are will be close to command here, and will get a pay rise then. B scale captains will get a pay rise when they move into C and T.
We simple made a big mistake when we allowed the pay talks to evolve into conditions of service talks.
It's easy to miss the point here. For the company, this is not about a pay deal. This is about solving their long term crew shortage. We simply gave them a viable method to negotiate this in, and they ran with the ball.
Here's a few truths:
They are not favouring A scalers!
Look at it from their perspective. They need pilots, and they need them now. The easiest solution is to extend the retirement age, and yes, it happens to be A scalers that form that group. Many A scalers are C and T, and most will stay on for another 10 years. Maintaining their current pay and even offering a small rise is chicken-feed in order secure such a large group of pilots.
DEFO is another easy and fast way to crew new airplanes.
The sticking point here ( as with other items ) is that they want us to endorse it for them. They can then say that it was ratified by the members, and they are seen to maintain harmonious crew relations.
B scalers are easy to deal with.
The company doesn't need to offer most of you a pay rise of any consequence. Most B scale F/O's are not experienced enough to take commands with other airlines ( you'd be there already otherwise ??) , and those that are will be close to command here, and will get a pay rise then. B scale captains will get a pay rise when they move into C and T.
We simple made a big mistake when we allowed the pay talks to evolve into conditions of service talks.
Last edited by Rice Pudding; 11th Aug 2007 at 23:42.
Rice Pudding me old chum what a load of c
How many A scalers refused the offer of extension on B scales, even to fly the clapped out freighter????????????? not f many
They don't need to offer the A scalers A scale to extend, they would sell their mothers to stay, even on the B scale.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.....................
what ya smoking? some have even been offered direct entry command in KE for goodness sake. And a lot of F/O's have considerable jet command time before they came here.
It is about pay my friend, B scale NEEDS a pay rise. A scale doesn't ( not until we catch up to you, which may happen in 17 years!! )
not about pay
manyThey don't need to offer the A scalers A scale to extend, they would sell their mothers to stay, even on the B scale.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.....................
B scalers can't get other jobs
It is about pay my friend, B scale NEEDS a pay rise. A scale doesn't ( not until we catch up to you, which may happen in 17 years!! )
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B scale F/O's are not experienced enough to leave for other airlines ( you'd be there already otherwise ??)
What a load of crap.....
Thats is probably the stupidist thing I have seen on these forums in ages. You need to get a life pal.
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Finally some common sense.
No, this is not about pay, but solely about crewing an expanding airline. They need the 55+ crowd to stay on and pax / freighter integration to make the freight side work. Nothing more!!!!
Turn it down and walk away. If CX says there will be chaos, so be it!!!
No, this is not about pay, but solely about crewing an expanding airline. They need the 55+ crowd to stay on and pax / freighter integration to make the freight side work. Nothing more!!!!
Turn it down and walk away. If CX says there will be chaos, so be it!!!
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ACMS dear chap, I think that you've misinterpreted what Rice Pudding is trying to say. If you read your own post you're actually agreeing with our friend!!
"How many A scalers refused the offer of extension on B scales, even to fly the clapped out freighter????????????? not f many
They don't need to offer the A scalers A scale to extend, they would sell their mothers to stay, even on the B scale.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating....................."
As you said, not many A scalers are refusing to fly as a Bscaler..so why, would the company decide to extend their terms on an A scale basis? They are EXTENDING the A scale by ten years..Please ask yourself, if it was about the pay..why on earth would CX go down this path, if as you stated, they could indeed crew the aircraft with the A scale deciding to extend on the B scale?
Rice Pudding, totally agree with you. Its the Big picture strategy that CX is taking and they've nearly got checkmate.. UNLESS all the A scale are going to vote no..chances of that happening??
"How many A scalers refused the offer of extension on B scales, even to fly the clapped out freighter????????????? not f many
They don't need to offer the A scalers A scale to extend, they would sell their mothers to stay, even on the B scale.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating....................."
As you said, not many A scalers are refusing to fly as a Bscaler..so why, would the company decide to extend their terms on an A scale basis? They are EXTENDING the A scale by ten years..Please ask yourself, if it was about the pay..why on earth would CX go down this path, if as you stated, they could indeed crew the aircraft with the A scale deciding to extend on the B scale?
Rice Pudding, totally agree with you. Its the Big picture strategy that CX is taking and they've nearly got checkmate.. UNLESS all the A scale are going to vote no..chances of that happening??
yes the company are desperate to keep the A scalers and they think this will do it. My god the A scalers were accepting B scales to extend so why offer A scales? Don't forget a lot of 3 rd floor managers are extendees on B scale wages. The GMA will reap a fortune when he goes back to A scales, and he was on the negotiating team!! go figure.
It might not be about money to the company in the first instance, but it most definitely is to the B scale community.
They should give all B Scales an immediate 15% payrise and at 55 A scales come down to B scale. The A scalers would still be better off than they accept today. ( ie B scale, no PF, no education, no housing, fly freighters etc etc )
It might not be about money to the company in the first instance, but it most definitely is to the B scale community.
They should give all B Scales an immediate 15% payrise and at 55 A scales come down to B scale. The A scalers would still be better off than they accept today. ( ie B scale, no PF, no education, no housing, fly freighters etc etc )
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Nice logic ACMS, i mean it really is, no sarcasm.
I feel the only problem is, if the A scalers are willing,(or probably out of necessity) willling to extend above 55. Then what is the likelihood that they won't take a massive offer like this. And boy, is it a massive offer!
With the likelihood of a GUARANTEED 10 years at A scale, as opposed to a MAYBE better terms and conditions for everyone if its a UNANIMOUS NO vote, then most guys would take the 10 years offer. Not that people don't care, but as you said, to the pilot body, its about the money.
If everyone can get their head around the fact that CX is trying to keep the experience, AS WELL AS to divide and conquer the pilot body(they've succeeded on this front)..then..people will be more convinced that a stand together is going to bring CX to its knees..
Now ACMS, go and convince everyone to stand together, and its going to be bloody hard with everybody hating each other!
I feel the only problem is, if the A scalers are willing,(or probably out of necessity) willling to extend above 55. Then what is the likelihood that they won't take a massive offer like this. And boy, is it a massive offer!
With the likelihood of a GUARANTEED 10 years at A scale, as opposed to a MAYBE better terms and conditions for everyone if its a UNANIMOUS NO vote, then most guys would take the 10 years offer. Not that people don't care, but as you said, to the pilot body, its about the money.
If everyone can get their head around the fact that CX is trying to keep the experience, AS WELL AS to divide and conquer the pilot body(they've succeeded on this front)..then..people will be more convinced that a stand together is going to bring CX to its knees..
Now ACMS, go and convince everyone to stand together, and its going to be bloody hard with everybody hating each other!
I agree. My feeling is that this vote will fail miserably and the A scalers wont get A scale after 55, they're dreaming.
So isn't in their interests to accept a good package of current B scale + 15% WITH ALL THE COS instead of the crap they are all accepting now?
It's what the 3rd floor like to call a 'win win"
-A scalers get a guaranteed extension to 65 if they want it on quite a good salary WITH all the perks.
-B scalers get a good pay rise of 15% + and don't feel they've been screwed once again.
-CX get a unified pay scale
seems fair to me?
So isn't in their interests to accept a good package of current B scale + 15% WITH ALL THE COS instead of the crap they are all accepting now?
It's what the 3rd floor like to call a 'win win"
-A scalers get a guaranteed extension to 65 if they want it on quite a good salary WITH all the perks.
-B scalers get a good pay rise of 15% + and don't feel they've been screwed once again.
-CX get a unified pay scale
seems fair to me?
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ACMS....you just don't get it do you boy? The company has offered the deal they have to A scalers for one simple reason...they have to. There are too many legal and operational implications looming to do otherwise. The problem is that they feel they don't need to offer a good deal to B scalers. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Why don't you direct your seemingly limitless anger and envy against the REAL enemy....the management. They are the ones with the obscene bonuses, the fat pay and all the other benefits that, seemingly you only seem to resent when it is fellow pilots that seem to enjoy some of it...
The company is very clever in how they have put this together. Most of the Captains (including many B-scale Captains) will vote for it. Many of the more senior FO's will also vote for it. Regardless, even if the package is voted down, the company will still implement age 65 and UFO.
Why don't you (and your other misguided colleagues) figure out how to draw ALL the pilots together and find a way to send a message to management. Remember, the management is responsible for your present pay and conditions....not the A scalers. Grow up a bit.
Why don't you direct your seemingly limitless anger and envy against the REAL enemy....the management. They are the ones with the obscene bonuses, the fat pay and all the other benefits that, seemingly you only seem to resent when it is fellow pilots that seem to enjoy some of it...
The company is very clever in how they have put this together. Most of the Captains (including many B-scale Captains) will vote for it. Many of the more senior FO's will also vote for it. Regardless, even if the package is voted down, the company will still implement age 65 and UFO.
Why don't you (and your other misguided colleagues) figure out how to draw ALL the pilots together and find a way to send a message to management. Remember, the management is responsible for your present pay and conditions....not the A scalers. Grow up a bit.
That's right Freight dog, the company wont be forced into giving A scales. The A scalers are just using that as an excuse to hide behind.
They could do the honorable thing a vote no, but I suspect the offer will be too good to pass up.
They could accept my proposed B scale +15% AND all the COS perks to stay here till 65 and it would be in a legally binding contract which they accepted,
there wouldn't be any "legal and operational implications"
Of course the selfish sods wont do that.
They could do the honorable thing a vote no, but I suspect the offer will be too good to pass up.
They could accept my proposed B scale +15% AND all the COS perks to stay here till 65 and it would be in a legally binding contract which they accepted,
there wouldn't be any "legal and operational implications"
Of course the selfish sods wont do that.
). you must be a really pleasant guy to fly with....
I fly with an All B scale crew now, and 99% of them agree.
I used to fly with old and crabby A scale Captains, got sick and tired of them talking about their Ferrari. ( I am not joking mate, they always dropped into the conversation something or other about their cars or houses or boats )
you're right though, I need to take a chill pill.
But for some reason this just grates on my nerve.
If they'd have given us a half decent payrise of say 15 to 20% then I probably wouldn't care too much about the A scale extension.
I used to fly with old and crabby A scale Captains, got sick and tired of them talking about their Ferrari. ( I am not joking mate, they always dropped into the conversation something or other about their cars or houses or boats )
you're right though, I need to take a chill pill.
But for some reason this just grates on my nerve.
If they'd have given us a half decent payrise of say 15 to 20% then I probably wouldn't care too much about the A scale extension.
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...can't resist the irony?
to quote ACMS... 'I used to fly with old and crabby A scale Captains'...
What type of Captain do you think YOU will be, based on your attitude demonstrated here on PPRUNE...?
to quote ACMS... 'I used to fly with old and crabby A scale Captains'...
What type of Captain do you think YOU will be, based on your attitude demonstrated here on PPRUNE...?
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You know what really ticks me off......Pilots who say they will do our job for less pay, then whine and complain about the conditions they have accepted.
Surely you, ACMS, read the contract before you signed it!
I thought basic reading and comprehension skills were a prerequisite for a job at CX.
Surely you, ACMS, read the contract before you signed it!
I thought basic reading and comprehension skills were a prerequisite for a job at CX.
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The problem with ACMS is that he is one of the first B scalers, B+ at that. So close to the elusive A scale. I suggest also a cat D F/O, hence a little miffed with CX and all those crusty old A scale Captains. Can't wait to fly with you. I know who you are, and with your attitude can see why you will never make command, here or your next airline. Kind of explains his venom and a chip on both shoulders.
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Actions Not Words
Guys, I think it is fairly obvious that this deal is unacceptable to most cx pilots. We are at a crossroads, if we don't at least try to get a better deal, we are as sealing our fates for ever as well as those of our colleagues to follow.
I would normally agree that CX will only take notice of people leaving, but in this case, they have offered a huge pay rise to a group that have repeatedly demonstrated willingness to continue on any terms available. This doesn't make sense. I suspect they believe they can keep the expansion on track simply by keeping the A scalers happy.
But extending the A scalers will only work if they have us on side as well. I think we actually have an opportunity here to influence the deal. I believe we should demonstrate that all B scalers are unified in opposition to tiered pay scales past 55. I am suggesting a very polite but firm letter to the company, with as many B scale signatures as possible indicating that this proposal is simply not on. The actual details could be sorted out by online editing until we get the finished product.
What do you think? We have to do something, this deal is like a thief in the night stealing our futures.
PS I would be proposing a merging of the scales somewhere in the CN increments
I would normally agree that CX will only take notice of people leaving, but in this case, they have offered a huge pay rise to a group that have repeatedly demonstrated willingness to continue on any terms available. This doesn't make sense. I suspect they believe they can keep the expansion on track simply by keeping the A scalers happy.
But extending the A scalers will only work if they have us on side as well. I think we actually have an opportunity here to influence the deal. I believe we should demonstrate that all B scalers are unified in opposition to tiered pay scales past 55. I am suggesting a very polite but firm letter to the company, with as many B scale signatures as possible indicating that this proposal is simply not on. The actual details could be sorted out by online editing until we get the finished product.
What do you think? We have to do something, this deal is like a thief in the night stealing our futures.
PS I would be proposing a merging of the scales somewhere in the CN increments
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Get this back to being a pay negotiation
Can I suggest we all band together for a 3 tier strategy:
1. Write to [email protected] and politely tell them you do not support this proposal.
2. Send a circular email to your collegues, telling them you do not support the proposal.
3. If it goes to the vote, then vote NO.
We need to get this back to being a pay negotiation.
1. Write to [email protected] and politely tell them you do not support this proposal.
2. Send a circular email to your collegues, telling them you do not support the proposal.
3. If it goes to the vote, then vote NO.
We need to get this back to being a pay negotiation.
IMAWINNER
I think you will find ACMS is a TC or at least a line captain on the B777.
ACMS
Mate like you I am a B scaler but only an FO. I am far from pleased at what has been offered but your shots at A scalers will result in a friendly fire incident. While I concede some A scalers will jump at this offer, we need to keep everyone onside. United we stand, divided we fall.
Personally I feel the AOA should reject the offer but still put it to a vote. That way it sends a clear message to both the company and the AOA GC that they need to do better, substantially better, especially when it comes back with a resounding NO vote.
Regarding retirement age 65. After reviewing contract law from my uni days and getting off the phone to a legal friend of mine that I went to school with we are both of the opinion that if the HK government does introduce age discrimination laws, it wont make our contracts for retirement age 55 null and void. We all signed our contracts of our own free will so they stand, period. All it does is allow those that want to, to approach the company to up their retirement age to 65 i.e. COS08. I think it is the job of all B scalers to try and convince our senior A scale colleges that it is in all our interest to reject this offer until the company comes back with a substantially improved one.
The more I think about this the more I am sure the company has deliberately set the cat amongst the pigeons so as to cause division. Gentlemen and women we must refrain from going down this path for if we do it will lead us nowhere.
I think you will find ACMS is a TC or at least a line captain on the B777.
ACMS
Mate like you I am a B scaler but only an FO. I am far from pleased at what has been offered but your shots at A scalers will result in a friendly fire incident. While I concede some A scalers will jump at this offer, we need to keep everyone onside. United we stand, divided we fall.
Personally I feel the AOA should reject the offer but still put it to a vote. That way it sends a clear message to both the company and the AOA GC that they need to do better, substantially better, especially when it comes back with a resounding NO vote.
Regarding retirement age 65. After reviewing contract law from my uni days and getting off the phone to a legal friend of mine that I went to school with we are both of the opinion that if the HK government does introduce age discrimination laws, it wont make our contracts for retirement age 55 null and void. We all signed our contracts of our own free will so they stand, period. All it does is allow those that want to, to approach the company to up their retirement age to 65 i.e. COS08. I think it is the job of all B scalers to try and convince our senior A scale colleges that it is in all our interest to reject this offer until the company comes back with a substantially improved one.
The more I think about this the more I am sure the company has deliberately set the cat amongst the pigeons so as to cause division. Gentlemen and women we must refrain from going down this path for if we do it will lead us nowhere.