Update on pay negotiations
 

Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.

A little history lesson....

Up until a few years ago the 747-400 used to have two crewrest "love seats" at the front of the upper deck. They were screened off from the rest of the cabin. A couple of years back management progressively removed the screens, although they assured us at the time that there would be no other changes to the rest seats. That was until they began to sell them on the short haul flights to increase revenue. No problem, we still had them for the ULH flights. Right up until now. With the new ULH business class product we now only have one crew rest seat. The idea was sold to us that there would be an economy seat reserved for the junior crew to take their rest in, but so far there has been no such thing. So, with a few small changes made over time the company got their way, at our expense.

Why your salary is about to be reduced in a tradeoff for higher Hourly Duty Pay:

Several years ago, Hourly Duty Pay (HDP) was introduced, apparently as an extra payment at the time. Most of us didn't miss the point that it was not made provident fundable. At present it forms a relatively small part of our overall pay. The problem with normal salaries is that during a downturn, or when pilots are being accrued for a fleet expansion, the productivity decreases, however the salary cost doesn't. Salaries, including holiday pay and provident fund contribution are all paid at the normal rate. It was "sold" to us (and lets face it, as an extra pay component it didn't take much selling) as a pay incentive to encourage and reward those who worked more - thereby perhaps cutting down on sickleave etc. But what is in it for the company and why the need to introduce an duty pay component ?

There is a high chance that over the next few years the component of hourly duty pay will increase as a result of negotiated pay rises, in lieu of an increase in basic salary. Take a situation in the future where only 50% of our normal paycheck is salary, and the rest is HDP. During a downturn when pilots are rostered to fly say only 25% of their usual monthly hours, their total monthly pay will only be around 63% of the usual monthly pay. It still leaves the company the ability to roster and pay overtime during an expansion, along with the ability to cut right back on pay during a downturn. And the HDP is not provident fundable, so it's a very effective way of subtly reducing provident fund contributions without negotiating it.

And many of you will also remember the not so subtle change, to make the housing allowance taxable a couple of years ago. It is now classed as part of your monthly pay, and called "salary". And for good reason. Given sufficient time for our memories to dull, it will gradually have the "housing allowance" designation removed completely, leaving the way clear to merge it with both hourly duty pay and basic salary.

How the company will offset the costs of a payrise:

The company have made their intent clear to introduce age 65 retirement. They have denied that they aim to introduce 3 man ULH, but this flies in the face of their recent proposal to CAD for 3 crew ULH, so we need to realise that it's simply a matter of "WHEN", not "IF". You see, 3 crew ULH is an easy one for them. If they put it to the vote, there are many pilots who will vote for it in return for an increase in the HDP payments. Anyone who currently flies 2 crew (B777 and A330) or 3 crew (B777 and A330 and Freighter) will be very likely to vote for an increase in HDP in return for 3 crew ULH - simply because there is no downside to them - they are already operating 3 crew anyway.

Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.

3 man crew
 

interestingly SQ flies hkg-anchorage with TWO crew

You really believe you deserve a pay rise. Well sorry to disappoint you but it is not going to happen. We will offer a low single digit pay rise for double digit productivity gain and other items we want in your COS.

As with Dragonair (which is part of the Cathay Pacific Group) you will only received a single digit increase in pay. We may have to address the DEFO Freighter positions (we will incorporate this in the new contract you accept with merged First Officer pay) but a pay rise for the rest of the group is preposterous. Why will The Cathay Pacific Group give more money for less productivity? Every year a pilot works here, they receive an increase in pay i.e. annual payscales.

We will endeavor to crew the Freighter fleet (Temporary basings in North America, many Captains still volunteering and many more First Officers). It has been done in the past and will be done in the future. The new contract will have all voluntary freighter flying removed from the contract. This will enable us to roster any pilot for freighter duties (in accordance with the freighter rostering practices of course). You will lose your contractual right “not to fly the freighter”.

We have just received an AFTL variance for our London Flight with no or very little consultation with the AOA. Who runs the show here in HK? We have to consult the pilot group but we chose to ignore it at your peril. You are pathetic. You cannot even police your own policies.

Retirement age is not a massive issue. We will continue of offer extensions to suitable candidates (on lower than existing conditions) beyond the age of 55 which will help out with our training task. This may slow upgrades but you should be proud to fly “The Cathay Pacific Group” aircraft what ever position you hold.

Hourly Duty Paid will be introduced and as expected it will pass. Possibly not the first time but with the proper propaganda in place it will the second time. Pilots can not see into the future and what does not affect them now, will affect them later in their career. The pilots can not see this. A small pay rise for substantial productivity, which is our campaign.

Our 744F, 777 and 330/340 now operate 3 crew to various destinations, so 3 pilot operations will be no different. Most will never operate the 744P fleet and we will pit many against one. As you know it works well. The CAD is close to giving controlled rest in seats with the introduction of 3 pilot ULH under 15 hours scheduled flight time.

Will the pilot group go on strike, contract compliance, sickout, absenteeism, wear unhappy faces on their ties, etc? I think not. We will not hesitate to terminate contracts en masse to keep the pilots submissive.

Will the pilots leave? A few lower ranking pilots may leave but The Cathay Pacific Group still offers the best contract in Asia. Many can not leave due to seniority issues with other airlines and/or are too old to start at the bottom, some are too young for other contract jobs due to time away, others are on better packages than others and won’t leave, so we have you just where we like.

The HKCAD is made up of Business People and will endeavor to rule in favor of “The Cathay Pacific Group” with regard to the upcoming AFTL talks. In the meantime, they will issue variations to the AFTL’s that we request.


You are weak, the pilot group is weak, which makes your AOA weak and we will do what we want.


You do not realize the POWER of the “Cathay Pacific Group”.

Good fortune in finding greener pastures.

Here is to my bonus.

The Management

So sad.... But sooo true....

Management, I noticed you guys have dropped the Company car Volvos for Audis, got yours yet, and what's it like?

Blunderbus, I know sq did the 2 crew thing to the US some time ago and got away with it but have heard the FAA came down on them big time and threatened revoking their approvals to fly to US unless they met mandated US crewing requirements

"but as you are aware we believe that the recent HKAOA notice regarding the integration of both passenger and freighter aircraft was a small step in the wrong direction and it has not made it any easier for us to promote the benefits of union membership with enthusiasm. I am sure hower that this is only a temporary set back

N P Rhodes Director Flight
Operations"

Ah, the Union should be sending a letter back to Mr. Rhodes explaining that it is not a temporary setback. Something explaining to him that the basic purpose of the Union is to look after the membership, not to cater to the Company. If the Company also looks after its employees, then the relationship with the Union will be good. It is that simple. :ugh:

As far as negotiations....from the tone of the Union update I think I'm gonna update my logbook and start filling out applications yet again....:yuk:

Me too
 

Yeah, I think it may be time to stop wasting time here! Man there is lots of work out there right now. But where does one go? Anyone have good info on who's recruiting? We know we have Oasis, Emirates, UPS, Virgin Blue. Who else?

Follow up for new joiners
 

I guess the point to remember is that conditions and pay are not what they used to be, and if you project into the future - well, it's not a particularly rosy picture, as conditions are slowly whittled away, and pay is slowly overtaken by inflation. B scale pay was a large cut from A scale, and there have no B scale pay rises for at least 6 years.

As an employee, it is simply another company - the glory days are long gone - and many pilots now treat CX as a stepping stone. In this regard it can be a good step. They will give you a 747-400 rating and a North American base, and after 2-3 years you will have 1000+ of heavy jet time. You will work hard, and spend long trips away from home with many last minute roster changes. Go into it with your eyes open, and enjoy it for what it is.

If you are contemplating joining as a second officer, again, keep you eyes open. You'll be given a type rating, and alot of travel. The Hong Kong experience is what you want to make of it, and can be alot of fun. You will start on enough pay to support a single person in a small apartment, and it will afford you enough for standby travel on your days off. If you want to bring a family with you, then you will need some savings to get through the first few years, particularly with children. The starting housing allowance will pay for a small (+/- 700 sq/ft) apartment.

But Hong Kong will not make you rich, certainly no more so than your own home country will. That is to say that if you were going to make millions, then you would already be doing so in your home country. It would be wearing rose coloured glasses to assume that a position in HK is the opportunity that it once was. Compared to airline pay here in the 1980's you are now paid a small fraction of the purchasing power, and you will earn every cent of it.

Not looking good
 

I was rather optimistic that the company would look at the "big picture" and realise that a substantial pay increase was needed to keep the overall package attractive. Naive!

I thought that we are Cathay Pacific! We only recruit the best! Not anymore I dare say - you pay peanuts ........

The tone in the union update certainly doesn't sound too positive. I wait with baited breath to see how many walk out the door if this is the case.

Sad, sad times if that is where we are heading!

W2

mmm, latest update, the freighter is suddenly doing Delhi-London and delhi-Paris, with 2 man crew.....................course they are not short of Pilots, they just say they can give a better block of days off after trip like this.............................


What a load of Bollox.................

still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Quote: still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I am reliably informed the next batch of interviews for freight dawgs wanting to have a bash at SLF are taking place at the TC Job Centre. The Oz routes, in prospect, are probably driving that.

There will be no "pay increase" until moral improves!:}

Thanks for all your hard work.:yuk:

United will begin taking applications electronically at midnight Monday. First classes planned for about 60 days from now - they plan about 100 this year and 300 next year according to the brief I listened to yesterday at DENTK.

Things have definitely changed - no simulator ride or pre-employment major medical etc. The thinking is that a simulator ride did not really prove or disprove anything if the previous screening out was done correctly. You have a year of probation following the crushingly time compressed time at DENTK to strut your stuff.

The application page will go live Monday - they will wait three days and then start to process qualififed applicants.

The process will involve a series of electronic screening tests, a phone interview to verify qualifications (??!), a personal interview conducted in Chicago with a UAL interview Captain and HR representative. You will be scored on all that and then the company will conduct a final screening board (applicant NOT invited) to determine the final selection.

From the web site -

Needed -
1500 hours Total Time - Fixed Wing.
1000 hours Multi-engine time (PIC) or Military fighter/trainer (PIC).
500 hours Turbine Time.
100 hours flown in the past year (Recency of experience).
Current FCC license.
Current valid passport.
Current First Class Medical.
Current ATP Certificate with Multi-engine land rating (AMEL).
High school diploma or GED equivalent.
Legal right to work in the United States.
A college degree from an accredited school is preferred.

Long list of 3rd class citizens (Oooops sory Freighter Captains) with Oasis. I have just been talking to them and they have just bought 6 more 744's from SQ and their own simulator. The many 3rd Class Citizens at CX (Frt Cn's) will wait till the outcome of the negotiations is announced and then make their minds up

But...........If the pay raise don't cut it.............................

I don't think flying the freighter will be optional any more, you'll either fly it or it won't go anywhere.........................for sure if the pay rise is an insult they'll lose another 20 or so, either to Oasis or those on recall to the US etc etc

Sizematters,
considering this payrise will be covering the period Jul 01 to Jul 10 we can safely assume a payrise of at least 30%+ just to recover from inflation(bases) and exchange rate losses(hkg).

I wouldn't expect them to match the 41% that EK have increased their pay over the last 5 years - that would be asking too much.

So don't jump ship just yet...big payrises may just be around the corner!

So don't jump ship just yet...big payrises may just be around the corner!

I have just seen a four-ship of pink elephants flying over HKG

And I've just seen some snow falling on my balcony in HKG>:}

That was ash from the coal burning factories to the north.

Yup, as a member of the AOA I am greatly concerned about these pay negotiations.

Why is the AOA being so damn nice?

1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?

2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so.

These two item are not combative/militant whatsoever, they represent nothing more than adhering to our COS.

SAA 744's
 

This from the African Forum:
Thought CX might grab these. Guess it's true that we don't have the crews. The fact that almost everyone I know is in overtime every month is another clue!
W2

ULRequalsSLeep
You just made my day!!!!!
What a sense of humour!
So happy to finally see someone positive. I guess when all hope is lost there is always self deception!!

From Wombatatico

"Why is the AOA being so damn nice?

1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?

2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so."

Mate,

Your wonderfull AOA is nothing but a SPINELESS,USELESS,PATHETIC wannabee negotioting team run by CX management..

Can't believe there are actually still guys out there who support them!!What a joke...wake up ladies,get a grip on your situational awareness...

whatever!!
 

Hey slappa, although i do in part agree about the ineffectiveness(by the way, they can only be as good as their membership is) of the AOA i do feel the boys there are doing their level best. I have always viewed things as not what the AOA can do for us but what they prevent the company getting away with.
I believe NR and the others have already been given their figure to work with and it is now up to them to screw it down as much as possible, hoping we will accept less. Now a little birdie has told me NR is very frustrated with the way things are going, roadblocks etc, this would indicate to me that the AOA are doing at least something.
Ulitmately 2 factors are going to drive this figure.
1. The cost involved in losing freighter jocks and trying to get us to fly frieght a/c.
2. The cost required to attract new joiners, not at critical levels yet but then we havent even started with the real recruiting push yet!!!

Of course there are the threats of losing younger pilots to their domicile airlines but i feel Cathay wont bother about this until it really happens, after all, since when have pilots had the balls to vote with their feet??
Age 65 will help, but most soon to be retirees are A scale and CX arent in a rush to keep them.
So as far as the AOA are concerned, until you are all happy to individually neg your contract with NR, then i think we really do need them!!

The age 65 vote is coming soon,and 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) The age 65 vote passes and the AOA loses 50% of members who are NOT happy with this,especially FO's who's command WILL be pushed back by a few years;

2) The age 65 vote does not pass and the AOA loses 50% of it's members,mainly captains who wanted to work until they drop dead..

Either way..the AOA is screwed..EXACTLY what CX wants!!A weak membership not even representing 25% of the pilot body..the rest of what will happen speaks for itself..

You have NO idea as to what a union is..I'll tell you: It's a body who represents it's members and who has negotiating and bargaining powers.It's a body who DEMANDS certain conditions and pay-rises..and who embarks on a massive strike UNTIL their demands are met...that sir..is a union...

The AOA doesn't even come close to this definition,because it's run by a bunch of girl scouts,voted for by YOU!!!

Let the circus continue...!!!!:D

slapfaan,

Your total naivety when condemming a Union who are trying to represent expatriates working for a company based in HKG is really quite entertaining (a bit like watching a child with his first jigsaw puzzle). The AOA does its best to negotiate using logic and practicalities to prevent the worst of CX's draconian efforts with a certain amount of success (not a huge amount I grant you). The more support it has the more attention will be given to it.:=

The age 65 item is irrelevant to the AOA, legislation will force it in eventually so do you want a negotiated transition or wham, bang and in?:ugh:

Yours is not a definition of a Union, its a description of some Unions in some countries. Name me one Union in HKG like that.:confused:

slapfaan,

Firstly, your assumptions concerning the demographics of the AOA are wrong.

Apparently you have no idea what the AOA is! It's an association and not a union although often it is incorrectly referred to as one. It is a voice and not a real force to be dealt with. It's all we have and it's limited strength or weakness is indicative of it's members unity. IE. it has no strength thanks to people like you! So, you're either part of the solution or just part of the problem!

My take is if you are NOT in the AOA then you are hypocritical if you complain about conditions.

Legislation?
 

Wrong BusyB.

Grandfather rights will stop CX from enforcing new legislation on already current contracts.

Newbie,
I don't think you're right. Both Balpa and AOA have taken advice on the Age Discrimination Legislation and despite it possibly having to go to court in a test case it seems to hold good. BA have immediately changed their contractual retirement age so they didn't think they would win.

In France Ryanair and Easyjet have had a court rule that they must follow local employment laws.

HKG hasn't yet got this legislation so I suppose you could have a retirement age of 55 for HKG based pilots and 65 for based ones!! That would cause some havoc,:}

newbie1972

Wrong. Under contract law, the terms of a contract can be made null and void by a change in government legislation. And when the law does change it won’t be CX forcing anything. It will be the SAR government forcing CX to comply with the law.

AOA
 

Slappa. If our membership is made up of people like the ones you talk about then no wonder we are introuble and no wonder the AOA have been in your eyes inneffective. I know there will be people like the ones you talk about, however these are the same people who wont lift a finger to help. The AOA know this and hence their limited ability to give a call to arms, even less ability to go to the company demanding things!!!

As for 65. If they implement it, they have to keep paying the salaries, ie A scales...they dont want that, otherwise they would have done it by now!! They will be trying for a reduction in A scales beyond 55!!

For all those bleating and blarting about how tewwibwy tewibbwy difficult it is for us poor aircrew to form an effective association/union/knitting circle against those absolutely HOWWID colonial swire people perhaps we could look to....THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS UNION whose leadership and membership have more balls than any of us wotaboutthemortgageindiscobay/thekidsatschool/thehouseinthephillipines gutless wonders will ever have.....:yuk::yuk::yuk:

Kit,

:D:D:D:D:D:D

I AGREE!!!

The best man for the job is...A WOMAN!!!

:ok:

The Pilot Shortage
 

"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
Pilot shortage may be affecting flight safety
By Slobodan Lekic
The Associated Press
BRUSSELS, Belgium — As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Yogyakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.
Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire — killing 21 people. Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash.
Analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
The shortage is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the Sept. 11 attacks.
"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation. When experienced pilots leave developing countries in Asia and Africa for the Gulf, those countries must hire replacements fresh out of flight school, he said.
And poaching of pilots and mechanics is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.
Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia. In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.
In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after Sept. 11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.
At some airlines, such as Northwest Airlines, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule, because it could not provide sufficient pilots to replace those who were grounded after reaching maximum allowed hours.
After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.
Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4 to 5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.
The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.
advertising
"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).
India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth — the same number now employed by Germany's Lufthansa. Airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available on average for each long-haul aircraft in their fleet, or 10 to 18 for short-haul planes.
Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of classroom training and 50 to 60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License. It takes another 250 hours flying plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which allows the pilot to fly on instruments, rather than only visually, and on airliners with more than one engine. A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet.
According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License.
Paradoxically, flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations — including the United States — are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.
"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.
Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance.
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
The London-based International Airline Passengers Association said in a statement it cannot tolerate lowering safety standards and is campaigning for global safety regulation so all airlines meet the same criteria.
The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut — the Multi-Crew Pilot License — where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.
Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, ignore the broader safety issues.
"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ortaage18.html

Me, I am curious. Now, what is it that the FAU have achived lately?:ooh:

A reasonable result
 

I think you are all terribly pessimistic.

This pay deal has to cover us for losses since the last payrise in Jul01. If it is a 2 year deal, it will need to cover us from Jul 01 - Jul 09. That is an 8 year period.

We should reasonably expect recompense for inflation and exchange rate losses. That would lead to a 30-40% payrise.

And of course if they want to introduce a later retirement age, then they will have to recompense all the FOs and SOs for the career loss of earnings when they reach 55. I am sure they will look after the career path and career earnings losses due to CX's desire to have RA60/65.

Who knows, they may decide to upgrade the increments for CNs from less than 2% to 3% like Emirates do. A mate of mine in CX is on $98K per month and he has been here for 11 years. An EK mate has been there 11 years and he gets $105K(HKD) tax free. SO he earns more than the CX friend before tax, after tax he earns $20K a month more than the equivalent CX CN. ANd because of EK 3% increments, the EK guy's earninigs accelerates away from our CX friend!

So all around, there should be money flying everywhere. They will be very concerned with the effects of DEFOs on SOs, they will be concerned with career earnings potential for FOs and SOs due to higher RA.

Where do you buy your rose colored glasses from ULR?

Don't get me wrong...I hope you're right but history tells me you're wrong!:eek:

Can you really see this company giving us a good pay rise!!!!!


I don't think so..........:= For gods sake, they haven't even given us a pay rise since 2001.

We shall all get what the market tells us we should get!!. Unfortunately we pilots at Cathay are still paid well when compaired to the other airlines around us. It is not a bad package we are on. I dont think we will get a payrise - though I do belive we deserve it, but thats just not a good enough reason and it does not work well when presented in negotiations. No, if you want a payrise you got to go and get that yourself - leave for somewhere, where you can actually get a payrise. Now where would that be? EK - starting a the bottom of the list!!?? haha.. Makes me laugh.. :D