Defopax
 

What's the latest on the DE FO PAX stuff?

Seems to have gone a little quiet.

Guys employed as DEFO(Pax) for both SYD & AMS have started their Airbus training.

I guess not quiet enough if they're here and stolen spots from S/Os.

True.

Two of them are former CX S/O's who resigned. They were then employed again under the DEFO(P) conditions.

A/T Less,

How have "they" stolen spots from S/Os ?? :rolleyes:

That question does not deserve an answer.

You obviously have an issue with it champ, so please elaborate . . .

Well, my guess would be that his thinking is this:

CX need 100 FOs in 2007 (approximate numbers for demonstration purposes only)
50 of these slots will now be filled by DEFOs

thus, only 50 SOs will be upgraded.

It's reasonable to assume that before DEFO on the pax fleet happened, all of the FO slots would have been filled by SOs upgrading, or freighter FO's who had done their time to rise to the top of the seniority list. If you are currently a CX SO, this might be looked upon as a 'bad thing', or perhaps that slots had been "stolen" from SOs.

Oh - no "champs" here VS, that would cause a cross cockpit authority gradient!

HTH your understanding.

If you need an explanation as to why a guy would be unhappy because people are upgrading (for lack of a better term) out of seniority. Then you haven't experienced a real seniority system.

These people are "taking" (if you like that word better) a position from an S/O who have put in years to get. They're no better than the "champs" who came to CX during the recruitment ban.

They'll be the first to stab YOU in the back if/when necessary.

Veruka Salt knows all too well about seniority systems.

He is also very well aware of how others can come from left field & slow down, even stop your career progression.

Just one of his reasons for leaving his former employer & joining us.

On the other hand CX has always had the ability to employ DEFO(P) and all S/O's signed this contract upon joining.

I agree it is not fair to pilots employed as S/O's. A lot of S/O's have the experience required for an FO position prior to joining CX. The company should have used this experience prior to employing DEFO(P).

Yes the system is wrong, but it's possible under our contract.

REALLY, what IS NOT allowed under our contract???!!!!!!?????:eek:

Thanks for the perspective.

Were S/Os offered these F/O slots prior to CX hiring off the street?

there's a contract?? oh yeah, that thing!!
But we all know the company only honor the stuff in the contract that benefits them.

I read something on there that I thought was funny; "the company shall not change the payscale without an officer's consent". well isn't that the 100% truth! When they handed down that big paycut during "the mess" that got us the 49ers, didn't they say "sign and accept this new offer or be sacked"? (or something to that effect).

I guess at least they were true to their words.

CATHAY PACIFIC, NOW YOU'RE REALLY FLYING!!

He is also very well aware of how others can come from left field & slow down, even stop your career progression.

that'll never happen here!

OH WAIT!!! IT IS HAPPENING NOW!!!!!!!

Unlike several other airlines, CX hires S/O's with a minimum of only 1000 hours single engine piston. DEFO's require 1000 hours of jet transport or command in a turbo-prop/corporate jet. On the street, the difference in years to acquire the DEFO minimum qualification from an S/O's minimum qualification point would be several years. I suspect an average of 3-5 years unless you're very fortunate.

My point is that S/O's should have their seniority frozen for 3 years and then upgrade at that point.

CX used to hire DEFO and I think they should now offer the new DEFO position to any S/O's that meet the minimum qualification of DEFO prior to their joining point at CX. Those that do not meet the minimum should be given an upgrade at the 3 year point in priority over any new-hire DEFO.

That's my 2 cents.

Veruka Salt,

The quick answer, NO.

DEFO(P) only have the conditions they are starting on due to the CX pilot body voting against COS07.

Had we voted for new DEFO(P) to join on COS07 you would have been starting on a salary much closer to Freighter pay. Now that would have been a paycut from your previous situation. It may have even changed you mind about joining.

Thanks to the CX pilot body we prevented that from happening to you & others joining as DEFO(P). You can now enjoy working on our current conditions.

However, under our current contract the only way for CX S/O's to take a DEFO(P) postion is to resign from CX. They will then be re-employed under DEFO(P) conditions on a base.

Problem is you lose all seniority in doing so. Rumour has it that this can be as many as 300 spots!! And for the final kick in the guts they even started behind new joiners employed off the street.

So, has this been fair for our current S/O's? No it hasn't!

In short, current S/O's (as well as most other CX pilots) stood up for DEFO(P) to have a better starting package. In return they are being thanked by having their upgrades delayed by these same DEFO(P) newly employed into CX.

As a soon to be new joiner (DEFO) I'd like to add my two cents worth...

I did not apply to CX as an SO for this exact reason! All those that did apply as such accepted the job knowing that this was the reality. I agree that it is wrong that they are treated as such so I do empathize with them. However, I do not sympathize with them because they knew the deal and chose to take it. How many of those SO's chose the job because they could not meet the minimums for DEFO? Half? At least a quarter of them. Now because they have three years with the company, they think they should be able to alter the agreement they signed. I just do not agree with that. Again, I do agree that CX should't run the SO/FO progression as they do; it is not my job to determine how CX should run the company. If it was my job, I would start everyone off as SO and they would work their way up to command.

BillytheKid
I presume that as you come from ATL you will be a DEFO on the freighter? There is not a single SO in the company that has a problem with that! We are talking about DEFO PAX. It is the guys going on to the passenger fleet that are slowing down the SO's within the company, NOT the freighter guys. A DEFO on the freighter can't come over to the PAX fleet until he holds the seniority to do so.... therefore an SO that was hired 1 day before a DEFO freighter will be an FO before any movement by the freighter bloke to the PAX fleet.

You'll find that today's reality in CX might be vastly different tomorrow. There was certainly no discussion of DEFO on the pax fleet when I joined, so I used that 'reality' to make my decision.

Furthermore I, and many current SOs meet the minimum requirements for DEFO.

Just enjoy the S/O job for what it is, fly somewhere for a lunch and have a few beers and come home for lots of days off. You will be upgraded hopefully in less than 4 years, and will have a command before all those DEFO pax who joined after you anyway.

You will be on bypass pay after about 3 years (as feighter guys come to pax fleet) so $50k a month for being an S/O is pretty good.

Relax, F/O spot won't happen over night, but it will happen :}

Hmmm..

You're pissed about DEFO pax but not freight. So this is really about money and not flying then? I don't really believe that. I think you're pissed beacause your seniority can hold FO, but CX decided not to "let" you progress and has instead hired a DEFO pax. Should I be pissed that the guy hired the day before my three years is senior to me for the PAX bid?

I think your problem is with CX, not the DEFO. I am accepting that I may never make it any further at CX then what they hire me as. Again, that is the reason that I did not apply to be an SO.

How about the union getting a contract that no longer allows bypassing seniority for career progression instead of infighting? You know, be a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem.

BK, your right but remember CX are pro's at turning us against each other. That is how they succeed with contract cuts. Unfortunately, it will never change because we are too much of a diverse group with specific needs depending on our location of domicile.

Good luck at CX!

CP-

Thanks, see you there!

BillyTheKid,

You being a soon to be cathay pacific pilot I can gaurantee you that your attitude towards Cathay will be much different in a year.

Here, you having not spend 1 day at CX and already accusing the poor S/Os for "accepting the conditions of service" and now bitching about it.

Well, I for one, I'm sure others too, were not even shown the COSs until we were IN HONG KONG TO ACCEPT THE JOB. Some asked to see this at the interview and were quickly denied access.

So did I know they can hire people out of seniority? FFFF***CCCK NO!!!!

But your next accusation will be that we were naive and got what we deserve. But you know what? A company that runs business honestly would not "trap" future employees in this matter.

I am sorry to say that your honeymoon period at Cathay Pacific will soon end and you will face many of the hard facts about how this company goes about ruining their employees lives.

There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct. Can you put 2 and 2 together? and Oh by the way, these aren't the lowly "inexperienced" S/Os (your words), these are the freighter F/Os that are bailing out. Can you guess why?

But you're suffering from "FNG syndrone" you don't see clearly until it's too late.

Good luck.

BK...

UNION??? CONTRACT??

Unions aren't legal in Hong Kong, it's an association..with, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, less than 50% membership.

Contract changes at the companies whim...

This isn't the USA...better learn that REAL FAST...and as someone said befor your attitude towards Cathay will change...FAST.

Quote "There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct."

Bullsh1t, try sticking to the facts. The number may reach 30 (or more) but at the moment was 9 FO's and 2 Capt as of last week.

BK, there are some bitter and twisted people here and do not let that sway your decision.

A/T-

Tell me where I said the SO's were inexperienced. Meeting minimums and being an experienced person are different to me, but I guess they're not to you. You sound like a bitter person that likes to beat his chest about how great they are and how dumb everyone else is.

FNG syndrome?!? Anytime you want to have a p$ssing contest about paying dues, let me know.

If a company won't tell me the conditions I am to work under, then I don't take the job. It's that simple. I do not have any sympathy for those that blindly choose things in life and then complain about them afterwards. To me that is irresponsible. I have made a great effort to understand the working environment at CX and I accept that some of things are less than desireable.


White Guy-

Yes, it is association versus union. I use the terms synonymously, but I probably shouldn't. And I am also very aware that it is quite different than the USA, but thanks for pointing that out.

Fire-

Thanks for the kind words...there are quite a few bitter folks on this board it would seem.

Wow! You really seem to have it all figured out. I bet your the kind of guy that is content with everything and never complains. Either that or your just another naive %$^$head that will start bitching months after getting here. Only time will tell.

BurgerKing is very naive...and should I say arrogant..good luck with that here at CX. I'd check that attitude at the door..you have the wrong colored passport to be acting this way. If you have only worked in the US, you have NO idea what you are getting yourself into...

Goodbye and goodluck

BK,

As you can obviously see, there are many S/O's or JFO's with a puffed chest that want to give it to a DEFO on this forum. They get brave due to anonymity. As for color of passport...that's crap! There are many Brits and Aussie's that hate North American's but also many good guys too. The ones that hate us we just hate them back!

While on Freighters, you will be flying with some good guys. When you eventually cross over, you will be a SFO and a Relief Commander. On the ULH flights you will be #2 in-charge. S/O’s are the least of your concern!

guys, can you plz stop bitching and have a proper conversation instead ??
Me, for a start, am quite interested in some more elaborated explanations.

I don`t think BK meant to be belittled, he just gave some valid points.

I am wondering myself about what is better; accepting a SO position or waiting till you get the FO slot. But more and more I start to feel some aggressive vibes from all the SO`s who are feeling they are mistreated. Why the hell does CX have such a `!!!!ty` selection process then if there are so many unhappy (with ALL the requirements for FO) SO`s ???? I just wonder :rolleyes:

CX has always been my dream, but I dont like the idea of me getting a FO slot and a few hundred ppl wanting to put a knife in my back because I accepted that position.

The recruitment ban is over, isn`t it ?????????????????

You must be joking about arrogance. Pot, meet kettle. Wow. Naive too huh? Why...because I think that taking a job offer without knowing your working conditions is irresponsible? And don't give me that sh$t about having a US passport either. You and your buddy A/T like to verbally bash people without actually having any basis in which to do it. CXDreamer was right on, I do have the right to voice my opinion without anonymous whimps like yourself lobbing insults meanwhile dodging the discussion. If you have any relevant points to make about my opinion, then make them. I await your lucid response.

777-

I don't believe that making an informed decision about my career is the same as saying I have everything figured out. Do you believe that?

Ok everyone... lets calm down a little.


The fact of the matter is that a lot of pilots (DESO) since SARs have joined CX with A LOT more experience then is the minimum for DESO. The majority have over 5000 hours TT with either heavy jet, command Biz jet or muli-crew turboprop. The reason the joined as an SO and not FO is simple..... there are a very limited amount of DEFO slots in Australia, none in New Zealand or South Africa and a whole lot less in Europe then the States. So the DESO way in at the time (there was no mention of DEFO pax at the time.... although it was in the COS) was the only one available. These guys and girls rightly are a little pissed that even though they have the experience, they have crew joining on THE PAX FLEET of a higher rank then them.

Once again BillytheKid.... there should be no CX SO that has a problem with you, as a DEFO on the freighter fleet has no effect on their progression.

Nightwatch-

Agreed. I am obviously not going to change any opinions here and mine will not change when I am being insulted. I had hoped to have an adult discussion about an important subject, but I guess I was being naive.:ok:

BillyTheKid,

You're right, we're all wrong. (and irresponsible too I might add)

On another note, Cathay Pacific core management group (aka Da Brits), they just love Americans who show up and speak their minds. I encourage you to continue that attitude once you're hired. I think they might be interested in hearing what you have to tell them.

Maybe start off by suggesting how they should fly those 747s, they'd just love to hear an American perspective!

Cathay management is very open and loves constructive criticisms from employees, especially if one is an American.

You'll love it here.

Bullsh1t, try sticking to the facts. The number may reach 30 (or more) but at the moment was 9 FO's and 2 Capt as of last week.
Hey FIRE,
The facts might be hard for you to accept mate! Those are only the F/Os that I have mentioned.
Do you think there aren't any S/Os leaving? I know of 5 that have gone in the past 6 months. Some went back to Europe (Easy), another to (jetstar), couple other guys re-joined their old companies. Another poor guy lost his family during the Tsunami then CX wouldn't let him off probation so he bailed too.

Wow,
must be 4 am and a million empty bottles on the table for the 'discussion' to denigrate to this.

For the SOs reading this. CX has always been able to recruit DEFOs. It did until 1996 but has always retained the right to do it. It hasn't in the past cause it is cheaper to have SOs. But now that the training system is maxing out, training courses are the limiting factor. You do not lose seniority because of DEFOs. You will get bypass pay when entitled.

Next point. Lets say CX can do only 300 courses over 12 months. For every upgrade to CN you need an FO upgrade from SO and a recruit to SO. I am going to ignore transfers between fleets to keep it simple. So basically a CN upgrade needs 3 courses. So if CX only recruits SOs it can only expand by say 100CNs. If CX hires DEFOs, it could theoretically expand by 150CNs as the other 150courses would go to DEFOs. That would be the worst case for current SOs...but if the airline can sustain a higher growth rate due to DEFO's, time to command will come faster as all SOs are senior to the DEFOs and 50 people ahead of them on the ASL were promoted to CN, and that 50 would not have been upgraded if CX didn't recruit DEFOs!

The reality is likely to be somewhere in between. A mixture of SOs and DEFOs recruited and some SOs upgraded. Of course there will be the initial influx of DEFOs as the company has stated that it is happy to overfill FO positions on 3man route basings such as Australia, and use extra FO in lieu of an SO.

I have yet to meet anyone that has any problem with a DEFO pax or freighter pilot. PPRUNE seems to have some vociferous SOs though.

To potential DEFO joiners, don't sweat it....the angst on this website is not representative of what happens in the company.

cheers and good luck!


PS A/T less, good luck in your job hunt. You are obviously too unhappy to stay here.

SOs I know are not generally "angry" at the DEFO pax, as the posts here would make it seem...but although a lot of them won't say it aloud, I know quite a few who are deeply disapointed at being bypassed.

A/T less quote: " Those are only the F/Os that I have mentioned".

the fact remains that your statement "There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct." is either an inocent mis representation of the facts or a blatant lie to further your arguement. We are not talking of S/O's leaving, that is not part of the discussion however perhaps you should look at your options.

A/T-

I looked back at your posting history and I see that you have a lot of anger which you direct towards others on this board. Back in 2003/2004 when you were interviewing you sure were a polite person. I guess since you got the SO job you don't have to fake it anymore though.

Why did you start this thread? You ask a seemingly innocent question, then turn it into DEFOPAX bashing in the very third post. If you're that angry with CX, then leave.