Check out the CX pilots safety record Dr.

The safety margins at cx are being eroded by lousy morale and fatigue inducing rostering by a management driven by short term profit goals (greed).

Please excuse us whilst we try to rectify the the safety issue.

Say there, Jumpseat, how much CX stock do the pilots hold? IF a suitable amount, your group may be able to get together with some of the institutional investors and (combined) try to influence your management. This has been tried in the USA before with some success. If you guys called the ALPA number in Washington DC I mentioned some time ago, these guys should have mentioned this. This may not work in HKG however.

Say there 411A, Go back to advertising Bills coaches in Manchester.

I think we'll call you the PPrune sexual advisor. If we want your F*%$$#g advice we'll ask for it.

Goddit?.....Good!

[This message has been edited by jumpseat (edited 05 July 2001).]

411A...remember the final equation?
Airline-management=ongoing operations.

Airline-pilots=immediate grounding of company's fleet.

Passenger Revenue - (Company aircraft+Company pilots)=PROFIT for shareholders.

Passenger Revenue - (Leased Aircraft+Leased crew+Leased crews' company profits+Maintenance of Cathay aircraft)= LOSS for shareholders.

The longer this equation remains unsolved=the more it will cost the shareholders!

Kaptin M I've read your equation on several threads now, what you must also remember is the Airline-Cabin Crew, Engineers, Cleaners, Caterers and the list goes on and on would also have the same result, so whilst you are a slightly bigger cog in the wheel it is the many other small cogs that keep it all together. Unfortunately I believe it's going to be us smaller cogs that are going to suffer at the end of all this, thanks!

Spanners, this management has acted with impunity against ALL employee groups for the better part of a decade now. What is so difficult to understand about the necessity in re-establishing a 'balance of terror' between management and the employees. Just be quietly grateful that we are willing to take these people on and risk our own jobs in doing so. Look at the example at United airlines. The pilots achieved an industry leading contract, which 3 months later led to their mechanics obtaining their OWN industry leading contract. If the management of CX can continue to cut our pay and benefits, intimidate and threaten with impunity and generally treat ALL staff with the contempt they have shown these past 8 years.....what do YOU think the future would hold for ALL of us...?

Gosh....here are the CX guys....back on line in FH. Maybe their OWN site is not so good??
Welcome back!!

The Resistance if you read what I said I was just trying to point out that we all have a part to play some bigger than others but all important, I didn't mention anything about YOUR fight or management or anytrhing else. So if you do get the xx% payrise that is alleged do you think we'll get the same? I think not, in order to pay for it the sacrafices WILL be made elsewhere by people not involved in YOUR fight.
411a as I'm not a pilot, but an Engineer in CX I can't get into the HKAOA website/forum however I do appreciate feedback from the people who are, unlike yourself!

spannersatcx, you are absolutely correct in what you say, the airline is made up of "Cabin Crew, Engineers, Cleaners, Caterers and the list goes on and on". Unfortunately, and REALISTICALLY though, any of the aforementioned groups can be removed, and the planes will continue to fly, but only as long as there are pilots - when all is said and done, pilots are the linchpin on whom the ENTIRE airline depends. This is not an egotistical point of view - a mere fact upon which no-one is able to disagree, like it or not.

"Market forces" have been a well worn cliche cited by companies for downgrading the pilots' conditions over the past decade or so, and it is now those same "market forces" that are responsible for determining the pilots', engineers', cabin crew, cleaners, and caterers' remunerations.
Perhaps management ought to be thanked for implementing this concept during the "Asian crisis".

Kaptin M...Hellllloooooo

Do you think it would be legal to fly without the doors being adequately manned?


Don't think so.

I am a CX crew and I support the Pilots!!!!

Well helloooo Flybygirl! You are correct, unfortunately however I have seen a dispute involving cabin crew, and guess who replaced them? Our mutual friends, the management. Unfortunately, and as you're no doubt aware, cabin crew replacements can be taken "off the street" and trained in the required emergency procedures in several days if need be - cleaning and catering are also able to be outsourced to unskilled labour. I'm not trying to upset anyone, nor look down my nose at them - simply a statement of facts.

The Resistance's posting is interesting in that it highlights (one of) the fundamental differences in thinking between aircrew generally and senior management here. United Airlines aircrew and ground engineers have apparently obtained 'industry leading' contracts of employment. UAL then post first first quarter losses of U$308 million and analysts are suggesting half year losses of U$1 Billion. We all know our industry is cyclical but reconciling large pay rises in times of reduced or non existent profitablilty is difficult. The longer term
danger is that UAL and others 'rationalise' (horrible word) and people get laid off. I think this was one of the points Spanners was making?
I fully accept the current dispute is not just about money, indeed 99.9% of the guys I know just want a stable life style. However, airlines are a narrow margin business and cost reduction will ALWAYS be a huge part of management focus.
I'm not being contentious simply making an observation.
Cheers
SH

Then again if I don't certify the a/c fit to fly, whether you've got a pilot or not it ain't going anywhere! That's the law.
Anyway this is a side issue and you could argue about it all day, which I won't, so I'll say goodbye until I sign the CRS.

Hey Spanners, if you don't sign the maintenace release because the aircraft is not airworthy, then you or your colleauges have not done their job. No pilot in Cathay would accept an aircraft that wasn't safe to fly.

Exactly, Hotdog.

Kaptain M:

Who buys the aircraft you fly?
Who buys the engines for the aircraft you fly?
Who negotiates the bilaterials on the routes that you fly?
Who secures landing and takeoff slots at the airports to which you fly?
Who schedules the flights of the aircraft you fly?
Who calculates yield factors on the aircraft you fly?
Who sells tickets to the passengers whom you fly?
Who ensures travel agents do not flood the market which below cost tickets for the aircraft you fly?
Who arranges essential maintenance for the aircraft you fly?
Who (in the case of CX) ensures one of the most modern aircraft in the world is the aircraft you fly?
Who advertises the services of the aircraft you fly?
Who aims to make more people fly with you than anyone else?
Who provides the training so that you can better your CV?

Give you a clue.......they begin with 'M'.

It's not all done by magic you know.

Kaptin M: When is the last time you saw the pilots changing oil, refuelling, or changing the worn out tyres?

Wake up and smell the coffee

BahrainLad, quite correct! Each one of those you have mentioned is working towards a COMMON goal - to get the aircraft airborne. And only ONE person is able to achieve that, the PILOT.
What you have done, is to RE-INFORCE my point that MANY, MANY other people are dependant on the pilot(s) to realise (all of) their efforts, by using his abilities.

Take away ANY of the individuals you have nominated and the airline will not be grounded (with the exception of the purchaser)...sorry spannersatcx but if you don't sign an aircraft out, it is still possible for the commander to override the MEL - if he considers it necessary!
NONE of the job classifications mentioned by BahrainLad are NECESSARY to operate a commercial aviation operation.

Flybygirl, we can do it [change the oil, the tyres, clean the windscreen, etc...if required. But what's the point of having a dog, and barking as well!!??

Show me an airline without pilots, and you'll convince me!

Sorry Kaptain M, but I don't think you get my point.

I'm NOT trying to argue that an airline could fly without pilots.

What I AM trying to argue is that it wouldn't fly without management either.

You acknowlege the role of the aircraft/equipment purchaser in your posts. Well, I'm not going to give you any Guvnor-esque 'I'm an airline CEO' bollocks, but I do know how an airline is set up.

You need management to do all the tasks I mentioned in my first post, otherwise the airline will not fly. You I am sure are aware of bilateral agreements, slot negotiations, maintenance contracts which are all tasks for management and are CRUCIAL to the running of any airline.

An airline would be GROUNDED without management as comprehensively as it would be grounded without pilots.

In fact, if you are talking about commercial airlines, they are doubly necessary. The very definition of a commercial (as opposed to a charity) airline is one that makes money. I don't see CX making any money without routes, schedules, tickets, maintenance, training or advertising.

I repeat, you are not surplus to requirements. But running a successful airline is a team operation: no one else is either.

Maybe the good Kaptin M will fly for free, after all if there is no accounting staff, salaries would not be paid, due to no revenues collected.
Come to think of it, you really do not need a permanent pilot staff as well, these can be outsourced.....hello, Parc Aviation?
A bit OTT you say, well just to illustrate that the sun does not rise and fall on pilots. No teamwork, no airline. Simple as that.

[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]