[This message has been edited by ess jay (edited 07 April 2001).]

I can see a lot of fair skin guys are turning green.It is sad that this hollier than thou attitude still prevails. How long do u guys expect to keep colonised the so called third world countries,earn the big bucks and keep the locals high and dry? Eternity? I can see the same criterias applied in the recruitment,nothing less and I really fail to see how that will make us a lesser lots.Cx is a bussiness body,it owes to the share holders in maximising profit and at the same time not to compromise on safety and standards. Flight crew qualifications here are tailored to CAA standard.DCA is audited and sensored by CAA and FAA. Meanwhile I believe many of the local respondents to the ad will be reasonably qualified and experiened way above the requirement,which in turn will contribute to safer flight operations.So guys,do not belittle others while trying to keep your cosy and high paying job.

ess jay,

I have responded to your posts over on the mideast and african forums. I tried to be helpful, but upon reflection, based entirely on your posts I read on those 2 forums, I thought I'd look up all of your posts so I could make an informative decision about what I'm about to say.

So, wan*er, my question to you, referencing the post you made above, is: "How do you know it hurts when you take it up there when you bend over?"

You must like it and just be too ashamed to say....

I pity the sister in law having to be related to you.

PS-As this is my first visit to this forum, I apologize for jumping in and slagging one of yours, but I just thought someone needs to...I'll now retire back to the forums I'm familiar with...

[This message has been edited by DownIn3Green (edited 07 April 2001).]

Triple Gem,

I think you miss the point.
Its nothing to do with the colour of your skin or origin.
Do you remember back when MAS employed direct entry expats for F/O & Command slots?
Did you like it, I dont think so. We just want to protect our current body of pilots and try to protect our already pathetic seniority system.
If you want to join Cathay by all means apply like the rest of did, ie; start at the bottom of the list, plenty of asian nationals have and have been successful!!!

Triple Gem... I'd have to agree with hustler!

Your saying we are trying to protect "our cosy and high paying jobs" for ourselves is absolutely incorrect!! What we are trying to do is stop the aircrew body's conditions of service and salary being erroded from the bottom up.

You should be happy that we are trying to stop the erossion of pilots conditions to the point that there is no longer a future in the industry for our children!

Unfortunately you think that by accepting a job on reduced conditions is a good thing for all.

The point you're missing is that if we can stop the rot, the job will still be here for you and your collegues but on proper industry standard conditions of service and renumeration.

indeepsht,
I do understand where you are coming from and it's a fair point. Would you say other Cathay Cargo bases elsewhere are offereing pilots similar degraded conditions that you are not happy about, or is it just a problem with the KUL conditions? I have been interested in the direct entry Cargo F/O position and also the S/O position on the Cathay passenger fleet and of course like everyone else would want the very best of future opportunities for myself, family etc.

Unfortunately this news will not stop the flood of applications from KUL. But hopefully for all you guys and gals at Cathay, things will improve for the benefit of all and also for the potential future of Cargo based and mainline crews.

Regards.

Talk about resistance, boy, some people have it real good… and yet they still don't know it. Did anyone ever wonder why us third world pilots are willing to work for what Cathay are paying? Simple, we get to be at home, and earn more than we can hope to earn in our country… we're not spoilt brats, we don't ask for more than we think we deserve. Our flag carrier flies planes as well as any airline you can name. I don't think we are inferior, less competent or less qualified than anyone currently flying at the moment. Our small third world country has only one flying school, which was set up along the lines of a U.K. training establishment, we sit the U.K. C.A.A. exams, and have a complete training syllabus according to CAP 54. Our respective airlines in Malaysia also comply to CAP 371 and most of the other U.K. publications. Most the pilots in Malaysia happened to be trained overseas, usually in Australia or U.K. as these are the only 2 countries approved by the local authority for overseas training. Anyway, that's sidetracking, I feel as incompetent as the next guy, probably as incompetent and unqualified as whoever wrote the "resistance" article to start with, no doubt I do come from a third world country, I learnt my flying in Malaysia, subsequently went to U.K. and obtained my U.K. C.A.A. ATPL, so that goes along with my incompetence as I now hold a U.K. ATPL, a Malaysian ATPL and an American (F.A.A.) ATP… all of which were obtained without any exemptions. If for any reason I happen to be more qualified (or more incompetent) than my fellow third worlders, it's not by much, as I would say more than 80% of the pilots here hold licences of at least 2 countries, the second usually being Australia or Britain. We are not devaluing any one or any company (maybe the writer seems insecure that his job is at risk from inferior and less qualified pilots?), infact we would be an asset, spoiling the market? No such thing, if Cathay choose to employ pilots who are willing to work for less, well, so be it, As for the standards, well, they're set by Cathay Management, so there's no point yelling at us, it's your management you should be yelling at. Tell me, friend, if you got offered a job paying more than you earn now, wouldn't you go? Cathay are offering just that, more than we can earn here. Who knows it may even raise the "lower standards" we allegedly practice. Cathay isn't a charity organization, it's a business just like any other, and it's people who write derogatory articles against the less fortunate that spoil things. Whoever you are, the author of the resistance… I have one question for you… .. why aren't you in your home country flying??? Too incompetent yourself?

Well then....

Enjoy your 8 to 10 day off each month with your family! Because that's all your ever going to see!

Your right Cathay isn't a charity there a business and a very profitable one at that.

Ever wonder why?

BTW if you enjoy working from your home your joining the wrong outfit you'll be DTing all over the place to pick up your flights for ZERO credit!!

Enjoy!

I find the Malaysian responses very logical and fair. However, as it was with B scales, if nobody accepts the terms of offer, it will never happen; but that is a pipedream and you know it.

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 08 April 2001).]

A number of recent responses have been edited or deleted due to their juvenile and abusive content.

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Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

Apuonbus...what's your point. You would be accepting d-scale conditions and undermining our jobs. Should I like that?

Good comments from all sides at times.

It worries me, reading some lines written here, that we continue to learn nothing from our recent history. It's not a problem having a pilot wanting to improve his or her lot by applying for a better job than the one they already have. What is the problem is that we as CX pilots seem willing to blame them for coming and not management for providing D-scales etc.

We have let the company get away with COS94, B/C-scales, S/O COS, ASL and more. Surely it's time to say enough. Direct your anger at our managers and not our fellow professionals. Have your say at the EGM on the 19th of April. If we need more pilots for our operation (and we DO) we want them as first class citizens on our COS and not as poor second class wanabee's.

Just a thought.

Have to agree with QNH1013, that the flood of applications will not stop from KUL as CX is tapping a niche workforce which are available with their requirements.The good thing that will definitely come out of this will be that the present employers here have to review our pay to keep up with CX's offer.Or suffer a massive exodus......(again).

My hopes & prayers to our fellow professionals on their upcoming EGM.Maybe with their unity & resolute desire to improve their working conditions will we in KUL get the same working conditions as them.Pitting us pilots together will only serve the management's ulitmate aim, to divide & conquer, which is the colonial powers trademark in ruling their colonies.Ironic isn't it?

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

Dear QNH1013 and comrades. Reading your comments i take it you have no objection then to some 3rd party crews(on lower slaries than yourselves)making an en-masse application for.. say... direct entry command positions in MAS purely because your management knows they are cheaper labour? The arguement that we are all 'just trying to better our conditions' may apply to you but at what cost to the pilots here who have already done their time and have had upgrades or basings opportunities and salaries trashed?...for the last 5 years! Good luck in your flying career but you won't get any CX troops onside...we're still speechless that 'they' are trying this when we are on the brink of industrial collapse..talk about lousy timing. Perhaps if they employ enough of you guys then they could afford to continue running the airline during the next breakdown in talks. If that's the game plan i would consider most carefully the merits of being caught in the middle!

Everybody knows what we, in this industry call a pilot willing to join a company during a strike. Don't we?

Now what do we call a pilot willing to join on reduced conditions during a period of "industrial action"? (The companies quote not mine, ours, or the A.O.A's)

Seems to me that the two situations are not that different! Or are they?

Point taken BlunderBus & indeepsht.I would love to see someone coming to MAS with our less than meagre pay! :rolleyes:

But seriously, it's still big money for some of the guys here.You must remember that the criteria that they set might tempt the GA & ex Air Force guys more than the MAS pilots.

I wouldn't like to be in a position where I will earn the wrath of my co workers, but then again some people would just look the other way when blinded by money.As proven by the events in OZ some years ago.

My personal hope is that you guys will see this through & indirectly benefit us here in KUL.

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

The boys that came to OZ to fill the void left by us are still not a well liked or respected bunch!

People have very long memories!!

An interesting comparison can be made between the proposed KUL 744F salary of US$43,200 and the year 1 Syd Freighter salary of US$44,200.

Clearly this extra $1000 is valuable for it prevents your "colleagues" like Tom Tipper from describing you as "cheap foreign labour" or thepenguin warning that you are, "d-scales and undermining our jobs" or Fatbastard from exhorting, "my how our standards fall".

Every Syd 200F FO must grateful to Santa Ron for the extra grand, otherwise indeepsht will be justified in referring to you as a scab (in the politest of ways) and some very brave, but anonymous, hero will warn you that, "Fifteen hours in a -400...is a mighty uncomfortable place.. stay away.."

I remain unconvinced that had the company set up a 744F base in Syd on the same pay as the KUL base, this would have been an issue attracting such venom. I therefore wonder what the real issue here is?

Dear Liam, I doubt you wonder all that much as I am quite sure you know exactly what the issue is. This used to be a career airline, it ceased to be such around 1993/94 when B scales/ASL appeared. Unfortunately it takes rather a long time for the message to get through to everyone. Some still have vain hopes that they work for a career airline, get real guys we work for a third world outfit that will hire at the cheapest rates they can get away with. How do they get away with it? Because they can! Imagine UA/AA/BA/LH/DL/NW/AF etc trying to recruit in KUL or DEL or CMB or BOM or BAH or DXB (dare I say AUS?) etc. Of course they cannot because they are first world carriers based in countries with labour and immigration laws. Hong Kong protects business interests and that is all. There is nothing we can do about this new development. Live with it or leave for a job somewhere else where you don't neeed to worry about your job being sold to the lowest bidder. If the CEO can fire a Captain on the spot for being unwise in the company bar what hope is there for the rest of us. I give up!

Well said Mole!

Pilots joining the base in KL will not be welcome in Cathay .Not on the grounds of skin colour, religion or any other sinister motive. But simply that they will be used to denigrate my earning potential at some future point, with or without their consent .
I'm sure that there are some very personable highly skilled and competent pilots in KL. Probably a lot better than myself, they would be most welcome if they joined mainline like every other new recruit. But not if recruited directly to a base at yet another salary scale.
This is not just another slap in the face, for the existing aircrew.
What is going on here is a blatant attempt to recruit another workforce that will be used as leverage to launch yet another attack on A scale pilots at some future date.
We allowed ASL to be formed, we allowed B scales into our ranks, it is time to take a stance and stop this continual rot. it's like a fungus . If you do not get rid of it , it will consume you.

Relax, guys, it's not going to happen.

CX "management" have started this as a bargaining chip for the real crunch at the end of April.

I'll wager the company will put this on the table as an "if you accept THIS part of the deal" (whether it be an overtime package, rosters deal or whatever) "we'll drop the idea of the KUL base."

If you think that it's too far-flung an idea, those of us who have been here for a while will well remember the poker game that CX played with the Airport Authority over the new training base in SYD if the AA didn't lower the cost of the land leases...guess who won?

Sorry to say this to you guys (in KUL) well, not really sorry, but IT AIN'T GONNNA HAPPEN. Don't quit your jobs or start an new HP agreement, because you're all being used by NR and Co.

Don't get your knickers in a knot over this, anyone. Do you really think the company would be SO stupid as to start ANOTHER ASL?

Relax. The AOA has this one.

Hallelujah!

Now I can see the light............wait a minute..............it's getting closer..........oops!.............It's a train coming directly at us.

I wish I had your confidence Kubota!

Mole,
It is the venom contained within the posts that has me wondering.

I readily accept that Freighter salaries are not good news; I receive one! However, every other week since 1st Jan 2000 people are joining CX with the AOA's blessing on salaries only a few thousand dollars more than the KUL base and yet there has been no mass hysteria or threats.

As regards your final comment "I give up"; should it be that you resign and join one of the airlines that hold up as an example, BA, you have no doubt read the threads on Rumours and News regarding train drivers in the UK being paid more than Yr1 FOs and BA's treatment of DE Fo's on the 744. Surely BA are not "hiring at the cheapest rate they can get away with "? Equally, you may have followed the somewhat tragic thread last month (or so) detailing how BA busted a Captain back to FO because he suggested over the PA that one of the passenger was nuts.

Good luck with the building blocks and the Human Resources luvvies; let us know how great BA is.

Liam,

I do not read any venom in Mole's posting. Merely telling it like it is . We no longer work for a career airline anymore true , we have no protection under HK law true, Our record of taking action to prevent this company from denigrating our contracts is not good true.
Maybe you are reading something into his post that isn't there???

I have to say I am with LG on this one. There is no way we should accept this and it is typical of the company's duplicitousness and mendacity that they should be trying this out now. However, there is an element of bigotry in some of the posts which speaks volumes. On the face of it (and I hasten to refer to my opening comments) there is very little difference between a base in KL to a base in Chicago, Sydney or London. They are all paid at "regional rates".

Again the company is trying it on. We have to treat this in the manner it deserves and not descend to fellow-professional-bagging. Don't take it personally - that falls straight into their devisive trap. Let the AOA deal with it and let us support their stance when called upon to act.

Went for the interview in KUL.Three guys on the board of interview.Saw five other guys there too for the interview, from the same airline as me.The outcome is very reassuring and direct.

Conan,

I agree; I did not read any venom in Mole's post either. My original post clearly refers to other contributors.

mr squak 7700, any details regarding the interview ? all the best bro..

To everyone in KUL...IT AINT gonna happen...

Don't get excited. Pie in the sky.

The same advert came out in the local newspaper again yesterday. Surprisingly, I thought just the first advert would generate enough responce.

Kubota,

The company presently aims to crew the 744F with North American and London based Freighter Crews. I understand the introduction of FO's onto a KUL base is seen as desirable from the company's vantage due to, not only the slightly lower salary, but the advantages the KUL base represents in terms of Flight Time Limitations in that the KUL FO's can be sent to either North America or Europe. Traditionally, the company would use Australian based pilots, but I understand the new roster practices and the the crew hourly pay (when they both arrive????) will be an additional cost for the extensive Base Travel (Dead Head) duties.

You seem to have further information when you say, "The AOA has this one" and "its not going to happen". Further to my post of the 6th;

1. What are the AOA's objections to the KUL base, and
2. The company is going to crew the new 744F's. Should it be that their fallback position is to form a 744F SYD base on Freighter salaries, will the AOA object to that?

I look forward to your response.

I guess AOA is not too happy with KUL basing is the fact that CX will finally have an influx of non whites joining rank and file.Most postings reject the idea of KUL basing vehemently but not the basing of LAX or SYD....wonder why?

77;

It has nothing to do with skin colour. It has to do with further cheapening of the job. A pilot working for less than half of even a B-scale threatens all of those ahead of him. If there are no takers to the CHEAP jobs then the price goes up, FIGURE IT OUT!!! We don't want our jobs and careers attacked any further. It has been relentless for the last seven years and we are fed up. Kindly P&SS OFF!!

squak 7700,

I'm saddened that you think that this is a racial issue. We have lots of Chinese Pilots in the company right now and we all get along very well together. It has nothing to do with race . It has to do with diluting my position in this company, It has to do with you being used to attack my salary and conditions.
I'm against any bases if the crew do not join mainline. we have had it with ASL now you lot

7700... yes it is very funny to note that Cathay have never employed a Malaysian pilot before. All of a sudden because they are prepared to work here for next to nothing..Cathay think they are the best pilots since sliced bread. Funny that. Not good enough all these years...but now they are the best.

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" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "

From The Star Newspaper today.

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Cathay Pacific ad upsets pilots

HONG KONG: An advertisement placed in The Star by Cathay Pacific Airlines to recruit pilots has upset the Hong Kong Airline Officers Association, which is accusing the company of trying to employ cheap labour from Malaysia.
The association has warned that this would lead to worsening industrial relations between the staff and the company.

Cathay Pacific has denied the association's claim and said the scheme was still at an "exploratory stage,'' according to a report in the South China Morning Post.

However, association general secretary John Findlay countered: "You don't advertise in a newspaper and set up interviews if the scheme is merely intended to be exploratory.''

He said this was in breach of the spirit and details of the agreement on conditions of service reached in 1999.

In the advertisement, Cathay Pacific is offering first officer freight pilots RM163,848 (HK$344,888) in the first year, similar to that for a second officer here.

Successful applicants would get a chance to move to the territory after three years of service.

The airline, in dismissing the association's allegations, said it would pay the pilots according to market forces.

"At this stage, I would say that we are at the exploratory stage and will be looking to see if the candidates are good enough,'' said corporate communications manager Rosita Ng, adding that Cathay Pacific was looking to recruit the best pilots in the world.

The dispute is the latest in a series between the union and the airline.

In December, the airline struck a compromise deal with its pilots, agreeing to a 4% pay rise over the next year to avert the threat of flight disruptions during the Christmas holiday season.

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Related Link;
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story...ewspage=Search

From Channelnewsasia.com

http://sg.cna.mediacorpnews.com//art...enews56370.htm

From my intel, more than 100 people have been called from KUL for interviews, ranging from the GA operators to MAS 737 capatins.... Apparently they have been told that there are 10 available places

Interview in May.