Cathays 49ers
 

Does anyone have the latest on the famous CX 49ers???
Seems this subject has been very quiet over the last few months but I briefly read somewhere in a press release regarding CX's new A340-600 that the pilots have had their US law suit thrown out the door by the courts.
Anyone have some more concrete info on this one???
Cheers! :D

t3953
 

t3953 - This is a very sensitive subject in Hong Kong and amongst Cathay Pacific employees in particular, it concerns 49 pilots who lost their job. Not something to be taken lightly.

As far as I am aware some of the pilots are still in Hong Kong, some have left and found other employment, some have left and are still unemployed.

The pilot's court case in the USA was reported here on PPRuNe to have been thrown out at the first level, I'm not certain how many levels of appeal are now available and remain to be explored.

For more background information and a better idea altogether of what this subject is all about I suggest you thoroughly search this forum. Thanks.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

Yep, as I reported here a year or so ago, the union [sic] at Cathay has been broken, it's all over but the shouting...

Airbubba, That's really jolly honest of you to admit publicly that you were wrong!

Looks like the hiring ban has not been working very well. I read the following on the Cathay Pacific website : and,

:confused:

Union is not busted...just ineffective, very much so..:cool: :p

Sorry, here is the link :

http://www.cathaypacific.com/intl/ca...,86808,00.html

Sorry, but here are some better ones:

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/ban.htm

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...e/5000PM~1.PDF

The HKAOA "Support from Around the World" list is misleading. As a 16 YR ALPA member I don't remember my union asking my thoughts on the recruitment ban. My fellow ALPA pilots who are, or soon to be out of work, also had no say in this matter, yet they are represented as been in support of this ban. The list also includes APA (American Airlines) as one of their support allies. This is a group that has no problem stapling pilots (TWA) to the bottom of their seniority list then furloughs them. They would do the same to CX if they had the chance. Lift the ban, find better ways to get the 49ers back before you end up with more non union pilots on the property than union pilots.

Are we forgetting who the "villians" are here fellas? Remember, the DFO stated that the "49ers" were terminated (FIRED) for All the AOA is/was trying to do (admittedly, rather ineffectively) is protect the 49.

So everyone seems to think that the IFALPA action was wrong. Well, put your (better) ideas here:

1.

And here

2.

And here...

3.

Cpt. Underpants
I do'nt think anyone is disputing that what was done was wrong.
However what is also wrong is the ban. By your own admission the current action(if any) by the AOA is ineffective. Just because the AOA action is ineffective I do'nt think it is fair to use others careers and lives as part of their action when the AOA body cannot resolve the situation. I, and many others, think that the ban is wrong but it is not my responsiblity to come up other ideas. It's the AOA's.

Capt. underpants:

1. let the AOA initiate a strike to support their fellow workers i.e. put up or shut up.

2. stop taking upgrades

3. don't ask new hires to effectively go on strike (forfeit a shot at a career for a major) if the pilot group is not willing to do it thamselves.

This debate is ridiculous, as an ALPA member in the U.S., myself and anyone I have spoken to about the IFALPA ban laugh at the arrogance of the HKAOA in asking people who don't even have a job to fight their fight. As to ALPA's support of the ban, none of us were ever polled for our opinion but I can tell you the AOA garners no respect and much contempt from good standing members of the union for their lack of a backbone.

This is my first post but I felt compelled to write it as I see various references to ALPA's support of the AOA. Don't bet on it we have little tolerance over here for those who don't understand the definition of 'union': "A number of persons or states joined or associated together for common purpose"

" Villans" - We all agree on that one. "Pilot in Command" = ?????????

fliion

I did say BETTER ideas.

1. The majority of AOA members haven't the balls. The suggestion of a strike was D.O.A.

2. 4% (our contribution to support the 49) of (an AOA Member's) Captain salary is better than 4% of (an AOA Member's) F/O salary. Don't be absurd.

3. What if they gave a war and no-one came?

NEXT?

The ban is ineffective the AoA are very effective.....at convincing the rest of the aviation world that the AoA members who vehemently support this ban are a bunch of misguided hypocrites...

1. Stop all industrial action.
2. Change the Committee of the AOA.
3. Admit all the new joiners into the AOA.

At least that would have allowed progress to be made some time ago. Unfortunately(for the AOA) the company seems to be playing with bigger and harder balls. The loss of the court case in Cal, and the almost scathing summarisation by the judge does not leave much hope for higher appeal there. The other overseas 'cases' are (I believe) labour tribunal hearings and so slap on the wrist stuff in all honesty. The court case in HKG is asking the company to leave a better rostering system and return to the even worse one we had before - just petty spin doctor crap, and given HKG's labour record there is no reason to think the AOA will win that one either. Thirteenth month, profit share - yup the AOA will win a lot more friends by screwing with the company now. CX is by no means an ideal place to work but you have to admit it beats the crap out of the majority of the remainder.

Do you really think the new joiners would want to join the AOA?

SHORTLY,

Be honest,

The HK court case ( in essence )is to prevent our COS from being changed at the companies will


HUSTLER

Captain Underpants, I owe you an apology. Prior to reading your last post I thought you were just another unprincipled pilot who thought only of his own lot in life. Now I realise I was too quick to judge and it has now all become clear to me.......AOA members are accepting upgrades in the selfless pursuit of providing a greater salary sacrifice (4%) for their collegues. How could I have been so stupid.

And you wonder why the AOA is held in comtempt.

Capt U, a policy that doesn't work is worse than no policy at all. A policy that is actually counter productive (by dilluting the AOA membership base with a now very large group of pilots who will not be eligable for membership.) is even worse.

If there is nothing to be done for the 49ers it is tragic but unavoidable. The current position is that the AOA will not do ENOUGH to help them, but will pursue something that WON'T help them in some sort of concious salving, blame shifting exersize.

Creating more victims is in nobodys best interest.

Shortly

Bending over for the bat from CX Management will just mean more of the same. There SHOULD be a fight, not acquiescence.

Cathay has demonstrated over and over again that it is unwilling to waiver from its declared aim of destruction and total annihilation of organised labour in it's workforce.

Your 1, 2 and 3 are the mill owners' answers to his prayers.

For those who don't understand, please don't ask me to explain. This is not a history lesson, just (I think) a civilized discussion amongst peers.

Oh yes, WIZ , 54 (so far) is not "a very large group".

F/W, just how do you equate giving 4% (it was 5% until a few months months back) of my monthly salary for more than a year to unfairly terminated colleagues I think you couldn't be more wrong.

Capt Y

'Your 1, 2 and 3 are the mill owners' answers to his prayers.'

I am afraid the millowners' prayers have already been answered by the AOA.

May I respectfully suggest that Shortly is on the money, assuming of course that the AOA really does want to get a seat back at the table.

Life is full of self-fulfilling prophecies but none is more cogent than the AOA stated position that CX management wants all unions off the block.

Ask yourself what incentive management now has to change that perception so skilfully created by the AOA itself.

Realistically the time to save some of the 49'ers has now sadly passed and we remain painted into the corner....waiting...and waiting.

I'm afraid the 5% to 4% doesn't cut it. But nothing is more cruel than the false hopes for those who's lives are still in limbo.

I understand that the CX DFO is about to retire in ignominy soon, to live in Scotland and and NZ.;)

Yawn.

Wake me up when this buII**** is over.

As for the 49ers, quit wasting your lives on a hiding to nowhere.
Get real.
Move on.
Read your contracts, CX or any company in HK can send you home for good without reason provided they pay your 3 months notice as stipulated in your conditions of employment.
This is one of the occupational hazards which comes with the elevated terms and conditions.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Captain Grungies (Sorry, Aussie expression!)

If 54 is not a large group, then I guess Cathay only sacked a small group.

You are right, action against the company should be taken. So why are you supporting action which has no affect on the company, and only harms other pilots?

I've been quiet about this for a while because I got a lot of "You don't see the big picture, the plan is in motion "(You still around frank G?).

That was six months ago.

Does ANYONE want to claim the ban has achieved ANYTHING?

What has the ban achieved?

1. It has kept some very good blokes from joining, and...
2. Some real "don't give a crap for anyone else" types have got in.
3. It has divided the AOA.
4. It has given the company a lot of headaches.
5. It has given the AOA a lot of headaches.
6. It has overloaded this BBS.
7. It has really p*ssed of old Ironbutt57.
8. Given a lot of blokes a lot to talk about in bars...

PS I wash em regular like...

Capt Underpants. You are so very wrong in your summation of the situation. The re-election of the same leadership by the AOA caused no discomfort to the management of CX whatsoever, quite the contrary. They saw that as a sign of weakness, not strength, from the AOA. They knew that there was no new person about to hit them with valid reasons for negotiation. The re-election of the lunatic brigade sealed the fate of the 49ers. Their only hope now is for a bit of compensation, which will be given voluntarily by the company not under the duress of court action. At least that is my opinion. Your original 1,2 and 3 are actually the tri-partite strategy of the ineffectual AOA management. My God man what have the dithering blockheads achieved in ten + years of union activity against the company? How many company offers have been taken up? The art of negotiation seems lost on the AOA. Take whatever they offer which is better than what you had and then re-negotiate later. Remember the reams of data provided by the AOA in support of why they refused offers? Most of it (of course) coming from the USA - United was well represented then. Bet the AOA are not quoting them now. Anyway I would imagine this whole sorry episode is slowly dragging its way to a solution which will only weaken the AOA still further. My sympathy remains with the martyrs of union ineptitude - the 49ers. I hope the AOA doesn't screw up their compensation which is coming - or so the dogs are barking. But I bet they do.

Shortly...your post is exactly correct...they need to re-hash the union, and allow the new joiners to join the union...strength is in numbers...and more is better..as it stands now..new joiners are only undermining any attempts by the unoin to effect change...why not have the newbies on your side...if the AoA cannot see this, then they are doomed for sure...they have really lost the plot

Capt. U

You are correct, zero balls and thats the bottom line.

As to not taking upgrades being absurd. well what do you think would most adversely affect CX: (a) not having pilots filling captain slots, or (b) you guys helping out the 49ers financially.?

Incidentally, working off your logic surely it would be better to welcome more pilots on to the property so that you could also tap the new hires for contributions to the 49ers. I am sure they would be delighted to contribute the same percentage as the rest of the pilot group. This would mean that they are taking the exact same 'industrial action' as everybody else would it not?

Nobody is saying what happened was fair or pretty. however it is widely acknowledged that the pilot group's reaction in defense of the 49ers was pitiful. strike one for the AOA. Then without taking any action they go to the marketplace and ask others to sacrifice their careers so their individual situation can improve.

its like rugby, men. when your is son growing up and learning to play make sure you teach him to tell the other boys to make the tackle so you can get the ball

sickening

fliion

I am a member of the AOA.

I didn't say I agree with everything they do. But, that's a democracy...heard of it?

Democracy:-

n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.



As AOA policies are to deny a group of people the right to a membership, and therefore a vote, and to encourage dis-respect for those people, it is by definition un-democratic.

Hustler, in many societies the Courts are an arm of Government almost autonomous in their deliberations. That is if you don't believe that High and Supreme Court Judge appointments are politically motivated ha ha. In Hong Kong the system is supposedly similar, still being based on the British system. So of course you can have great confidence in the Court to honestly and openly rule on that sooo important decision on the rostering aspects of one's contract. I have said before and been villified by the pit bulls that one should only plan fights when all the advantages are yours, note I said plan ok. Picking the time, place and conditions for a battle, aiming for success and not the status quo, isn't that what a good leader should be doing? Further, violence is the last resort of a stupid man. Industrial action is industrial violence. We should never ever have been in this fight at all, the AOA have tossed all our balls in the air and they haven't caught many on the way down. In fact I think they've probably dropped the lot.

Wizofoz, Thanks for the definition. However, your interpretation of it means that there isn't a democratic country in the world as we can't vote in all of them.:rolleyes:

Shortly, once again your shorts are showing....isn't it Swine policy for their junior stooges to read Sun Tzu? Shame on you for being sooooo transparent.:p

:rolleyes: ;) :) mandrake

After reading all the discussions re the sacking of the 49'for the last 12 month no solutions has appeared to solve the stalemate between the management & the A.O.A.
If the A.O.A. had talks with Cathay after the 9-11 tragedy & told them that the pilots were willing to take a 15%pay cut to help the company out during the downturn in the airline industry simular to the staff at Singapore Airline , the chances of the 49's of being re-employed would have improved.
In any dispute there are no winners only losers.All it needs is new negotiators to approach the company & tell them the pilots are willing to help the company to become bigger better & more profitable by taking less sickies & takiing the right amout of fuel on all flights ,leaving on time.& getting shares in the company instead of bonuses.;)

Hey mandrake,

why the hell should they take a pay cut when the company is set to post one of it's biggest ever profits, load factors in CX are running at 90%, cargo is ballistic and they've had to revise the buget twice and it's is still running about 8-9% above this!:eek:

Let's think this one all the way through:

1. The management sacks 49 Pilots.
2. The AOA begs the management to reinstate the sacked pilots in return for a 15% pay cut.

Six months later:

1. The management sacks 49 Pilots.
2. The AOA begs the management to reinstate the sacked pilots in return for a 15% pay cut.

Six months later:

1. The management sacks 49 Pilots.
2. The AOA begs the management to reinstate the sacked pilots in return for a 15% pay cut.

Mmm...

Mmmmmmm...........

Maybe one should now the facts before posting?????????

49ers
 

Hello Gissmonkey & Flexible R.
It seems to me that you do not trust CX to do the right thing,& that you are both unhappy about with the working conditions.What do you think about CX resume paying the one month bonus?Did the A.O.A. put pressure on the company to pay up? Or did CX do it to show that it will reward the employees if they do their job efficiently.
If you both dislike working at CX there 3 choices,
1. Leave CX & find another airline,but bear in mind that the grass is not always greener over the hill.
2. Start your own business.Being your own boss is not as easy as you think.Please remember that you have to employ staff & they might not be happy with the way you run your business.
3. Sit back & enjoy things as they are just like shortly,no company is 100% perfect.

Mandrake.
:cool:

...do not trust CX to do the right thing...?

Again for the second Christmas our thoughts are with the Cathay 49ers, their partners and especially their children. Merry Christmas to all, and we hope and look forward to a happy and peaceful resolution in the New Year.