Suggestion Box
 

- solutions only
- should define benefit to the company
- feasible and legal (best of knowlege)
- no personal attacks or insults


CX only, can't comment on KA

All S/O's, JFO's offer of 12 months voluntary leave with monthly allowance of 10k. If bound to a rental contract, company will pay the full rent. Officers with children can decline and will not be counted in terms of the min acceptance rate. FOC tickets plus headland available for voluntary simulator checks. Earlier recall on voluntary base possible.

All based non-747 crew offer of 12 months voluntary leave on 25% of salary.


Voluntary temporary cut of 10 % basic for 12 months for all crew.

Min required acceptance rate above 90% or further actions by the company.


Benefit: immediate recall available in case of recovery, future prospect of employment for S/O's, survival of basings

Stick to the contract. Last in, first out.

Didn’t those who didn’t take SLS effectively volunteer to be first to go?

SLS3. 6 months unpaid leave for ALL to be spread over 18 months (1/3 of salary cut for 18 months). ARAPA and HKPA remains to be paid throughout. SLS3 to be taken in 2 months or more instalments.

And STW I agree it would be a good idea to set an attribution rate, some people need some pressure to chip in.

Save all jobs if we can.

I am sorry to inform everyone, but it is a bit late to be providing comprehensive "solutions" to the companys problem. Needless to say, they have already baked their cake and the result is about to be presented to the membership. You are providing sensible suggestions, but it is too little too late. The result is already decided.

I have to add 10 characters to reply.

Please keep it coming, without personal attacks or insults. Please.

Downsides of LIFO:

costs of severance, recruitment, re-training 747 crew plus the newjoiner later, possible shortcomings in case of rapid developments, downgrading of CN's necessary ( something not discussed yet I noticed) , human cost of hardship

Note that all affected by LIFO would still be the ones with the biggest burden, down to just 10k a month. But it would not be as brutal and terminal.

Not saying LIFO it is not a valid suggestion, just wondering if it is really the best. I was hoping for a creative and maybe innovative alternative. I do not suggest to break any contract, voluntary agreements only.

So Sam, conversely you are suggesting that they should ignore LIFO? It's ok to retain someone junior to someone senior? Is that what you are saying. Just asking. Without a contractual right to retain your job respective to someone junior to you, there is then categorically no value in your career. If you don't agree, then please explain.

LIFO isn't a suggestion. It's contractual.

LIFO has some immigration/legal ramifications as I’d imagine that you can’t keep someone who needs a visa and lay off someone who is PR. Some of the most junior are Locals/PR.

It's impossible to circumvent LIFO on the master seniority list without significant litigation and a huge quagmire (and the litigation costs--in which you'll ultimately lose the case--will be extensive for the company while in some jurisdictions 'free' towards the plaintiffs). While the enforceability in HKG might be dubious elsewhere it would not be and you can't use 'tricks' to try to get around that in that all that information would be discoverable. Nor could you partially circumvent this by applying LIFO in one area and not in another because that would affect everyone (i.e. a partial LIFO only on the base but not in HKG would still affect those on a base so it'd still wind up in arbitration/court). There's simply no way around the provision.

SO

You're gonna need a voluntary scheme to comply with the contracts and one that attracts enough people to take it. That's really the only legal avenue before the reverse-seniority axe.

The break point (i.e. the point it'd be financially beneficial for retirement and permanent separation vs. simple layoff provisions) for most contracts is two years for a clean break (given the pay protection, AL, sick days, etc.). Medical in countries for a year or so might need to be added. This is similar to many (developed nations) scheme; I'd probably look towards Southwest for a model.

You might add a one year voluntary leave scheme (with recall) at 60-70%-ish pay (no housing or ancillary allowances, etc.; preserving medical and peripheral benefits in countries which need it) there as well. That'd get you recoverable assets when things pick back up a bit.

A straight layoff is 6 months' pay (with in-seniority recall rights) in most contracts so it has to be something better than this (i.e. it'd have to be better than a simple one year at half pay in that 6 months is half a year so a person would be better off to force layoffs).

Give this a try and then bring down the axe.

No, I don't suggest to ignore LIFO. If redundancies will be decided they must be done by LIFO in my opinion. ( no idea about the legal implications of PR vs Non-PR).

What I suggest is not to make anyone redundant in the first place, basically buying time by asking those potentially affected by LIFO to voluntarily accept 10k for a year etc (see first post).

Major restructuring. Company and all contracts essentially ceases to exist and assets transferred to new company who picks who to re-hire.

Didn't take SLS? Out
On the 777 with 3 months of G days continuously? Out
Everyone on COS20. Don't like it? Too bad, get out
ARAPA gone. Can't afford your mega mansion anymore? Too bad, if you don't like it, leave
Locals protected over expats

If senior crew think their experience makes them bigger than god, bye bye.

Although I would prefer LIFO as it would protect me more, but if I would be running a business I would do exactly what you suggest !!!!

No it’s not impossible, there’s this thing called OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENT (aka major restructuring) which is exactly what the CX group will be going through, starting Q4.

This is exactly what they will use as a grounds for a fair dismissal (here’s your new contract, take it or leave it), and they have the full backing of any judge and court. The AOA knows this, the DPA knows this, all of them powerless, nothing to “negotiate”.
For them to even suggest 50% pay for a year is laughable.

In a previous post on another forum I mentioned how this is going to play out, the 49er fiasco can be used as a prelude:

Under probation - ciao
High sickness record - ciao
Poor performance - ciao
Failed upgrades - ciao
Outspoken on Social Media - ciao
Extra fuel/no RETI (no good reason) - ciao

then only do we get to LIFO (per fleet, per rank)

In a nutshell, anytime you cost them money, you’re a target - open season on 1 October.

Hold onto your underpants - it’s going to be a rough ride.

This thread was actually meant for constructive suggestions, not when to expect annihilation.

Think of it as trouble shooting in a catastrophic inflight situation.

Are you going to give up?

Creative solutions, please let us see them.

Thank you

I agree with Curry; and look up Force Majeure, our contracts are unenforceable in current circumstances.
STW, our suggestions or solutions are irrelevant.

I have looked this up a few times and according to a number of sources, you must have the force majure clause actually written into your contract, I do not have that written in what I signed.

Whilst I feel we should do all we can to save jobs, I am not prepared to see the contract and LIFO changed at all. If the numbers of pilot redundancies rumoured in local press are correct there is a real chance I might get the chop, I can accept it provided the terms of my recruitment, employment & contract are followed to the letter in the process. I will just be too Junior.

I guarantee not a single one of you when you signed your COS had a problem with LIFO, either because you never thought it would come to this but more likely because you all thought it was fair and more importantly knew it was the way it was done in the airline industry! For those of you advocating against LIFO are you also advocating against seniority based promotion? Because they are one and the same.

Anyway on the theme of the original topic

- In reverse seniority order as an alternative to permanent redundancy offer two years unpaid leave from Jan 1st 2021. Seniority and Longevity will still build (your increments will still build up and your DOJ for staff travel will remain as original DOH)

- One time payment of four months basic salary (saves the company two months they would pay out in the event of permanent redundancy)

- You remain an employee.

- Company have the option of an early return to flying duties with 3 months notice.

LIFO
 

Those saying it's impossible to avoid LIFO, is a contractual bla bla bla... Litigation... You should read HK labour Law. Under special circumstances and to guarantee company survival, contracts can be overridden...

Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.

Obviously! Love the big idea solution bin, but it’s child’s play. How about we live in the real world? A contract is a contract. It’s that simple.

Did you make that rule up all by yourself or did somebody help you with that? Dumb!

Stop with the common sense posting, the snowflakes don’t like it. They prefer word games, made up laws, and how this time it really is different. It’s like legislating from the judicial bench... don’t like the result? Just throw out the law!

you are talking about bankruptcy not restructuring.

I encourage the enthusiasm but really it is not going to make any difference.
Read the AOA forums, the company has locked the AOA out from any meetings etc. Last time they met was before the ERS. What we say or think means jack sh$&.

Bla Bla Bla
 

"Force Majure" are you kidding.. It's Hong Kong... And "contracts" these days mean jack ****..
An example in how useless the courts and government are; Mainland China and the PRC are NOT SUPPOSED to interfere in the internal workings of Hong Kong !!!

Next !!!!

#CXIT

Not worth it.

Funny that, the real world suggests that people who cost too much to do too little, and those who think way too big of themselves when they are in fact replaceable by much those more talented and less entitled, are the first to go. Out.

This.

And the ONE thing that is clear in some of those contracts is the required layoff/recall provisions. And--for better or worse--things that happen in HKG can adversely affect those contracts even if the people are currently in another jurisdiction. So to be constructive it's best to figure something that can be worked within those constraints.

The only thing that I can think of is an attractive and voluntary scheme to avoid axing from the bottom up to the extent it can be avoided.

The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.

That would not be smart, as the based are some of the cheapest crew on the note-sheet at the moment.

Final Solution: Swire extract themselves from this structurally sick, over regulated and high cost investment.

As signalled by the forced resignation of the leadership last year, due to political misdemeanours, Swire are not welcome in the future local environment.
Instead of planning all the devious legal and legally challengable staffing solutions listed above, they have been tying up the loose ends and putting the HKGOV money to good use paying down Swire debt and planning an entire shutdown of all operations, permanently.
They are not “legally” bound to continue their air carriage service.
Imagine the Phoenix that will arise from the ashes!

How about them apples?

there is no need for force majeure to be written into contracts in hk. The labor legislation in hk allows contracts to be varied if the company deems the change absolutely necessary. Read chapter 10 of the employment ordinance, below the second table.

“Valid Reasons for Dismissal or Variation of the Terms of the Employment Contract
The five valid reasons for dismissal or variation of the terms of the employment contract are:
 the conduct of the employee
 the capability or qualifications of the employee for performing his work
 redundancy or other genuine operational requirements of the business
 statutory requirements (i.e. it would be contrary to the law to allow an
employee to continue to work in his original position or to continue with the
original terms in his employment contract)
 other substantial reasons”

if Covid 19 is not a genuine operational requirement, I don’t know what is.
I am not advocating contracts be broken by any means, and I don’t believe they will be, just stating the facts.

Don't think that'd work at this point. You couldn't close a base to deliberately avoid the contractural provisions of layoff/recall in an existing contract (it'd have the same effect as violating them in the first place), and I'm sure there's a paper trail if that would have been the intent. So better simply to solve the problem by following an agreed contract rather than try something dodgy and underhanded.

I'm sorry to say, but the company has every right to close the bases at their discretion. They have no legal obligation to keep them open. I hope they do keep them open, but don't kid yourselves that the company is somehow obligated to keep them running as is.

Smartest thing would be to get pregnant.

We are going through this at present with a company in HK. Not only is it practically impossible to fire pregnant staff, we have been told that we cannot liquidate either!

Funny how Sam writes up terms & conditions for responses in his opener and, again, later appeals for "no personal attacks or insults". C'mon, Sam, this is Fragrant Harbour where many of us "lurk" about for our daily (week-end in my case) larf where bully boy tactics and deep personal insults, often through "potty mouth talk" has been the order of the day And I see Sam "lurking" about the ME forum too.Don't you CX guys have a dedicated CX forum ? Might be better for airing rather than on the public platforms. Blimey, sound like a Mod.

The Corvid hysteria and lock-down has seen a softening of articulation here though. I am saddened, actually. I am reminded, though, of all the airline disasters, bankruptcies etc that led to whole swathes of pilots meeting up & discussing solutions before the axe fell anyway. Went through two and our solutions never got to the table. Now there's a surprise. Cathartic though.

Wish you a healthy outcome but reading many of the posts has that famous Perry Como (or was Cherry Coco ?) song " Dream along with me, I'm on my way to the stars" ringing in my ears. Also, the famous list of uses of the "F" word where one has Captain of the Titanic turning to First Officer and asks ; "What F.....g Ice Berg ?"

As we say in that fabbo, well considered, deeply analysed Yamkee phrase ; "It is what it is".

Sorry Sam. Taking cover for the tirade of two-word dismissals for which the Harbour is famous.

228 lurkers right now in Fragrant Harbour. More than any other region on PPruNe. Meanwhile the union forum has been dead for weeks if not months. The silence is deafening.