Profitable 2019. Where is our full 13th month?
 

So, considering todays profit announcement for the 2019 financial year, where is our justified full 13th month payment? There can be no question that under any interpretation of our contracts it should be paid in full. I assume the HKAOA and other associations are pressing this, and hopefully taking legal action to support. We deserve to receive a full payment as it was earned with dedicated hard work throughout the year. Considering it unlikely we will be seeing a 13th month this year, we should certainly expect to receive it for this past year.

Normally.
”Satisfactory” operating profit.
”Marginal” profit.
As determined by the Company.

Certainly lots of wriggle room for the company lawyers there. Our one real argument is that while any of the above may result in a reduced ADB, only “in extreme circumstances, not paid”.
So when management made the decision in December 2019 to not pay one cent of the ADB, what were the “extreme circumstances” at that time?

Years ago the company started to manipulate the payout on Profit Sharing. Now, effectively there is none. Just empty words in our worthless contracts. Now, they are starting to treat the 13th month in the same fashion. If the AOA does not immediately confront and challenge the company on this travesty, and immediately begin legal proceedings, then the pilots in HK can effectively consider that the 13th month is no longer something they can expect as part of their contract. Either fight this now, of simply give up. As usual, disgraceful behaviour on part of the company. (I might add that a failure to fight this will also lead to the conclusion that the AOA is not worth belonging to).

100% correct!!!

I will only add that I will start taking SLS seriously when CX starts taking 13th month and the profit share seriously.

The real absurdity is that there will be people posting on this thread and complaining about not receiving their full 13th month, at the same time having taken SLS and given the company ANOTHER three weeks of their pay. You can't make this stuff up. Ponder the BILLION plus profit, then think about your family not having another 3 weeks pay which you rightly should be entitled to have received. Definition of Insanity?.

Apparently just under A$1million profit PER DAY, EVERY DAY, FOR THE WHOLE YEAR is not enough! UNFKNBLVBL

Management knew the company was going to make a profit, and a healthy one. They weren’t going to ask people to take SLS after the fact.

whomever took SLS, thanks for taking a hit to your savings to further help the company profit

Getting the AOA to challenge this is an absolute waste of time and money. The company will argue the second half loss drove the decision.

Just take some time off when it suits you (if you are brave enough to do that rather than just post here) to get back what has been stolen from you.

Wake up idiots.

This Covid19 has the potential to destroy the airline industry and others while you fools worry about your damn 13th month.

Big picture I would have thought...

Now stop going on about it.......it’s done. Worry about having a job at all.

Do not for a minute underestimate the amount of money the freighter fleet is making.

ACMS. Our 13th month contribution is a drop in the bucket for the balance sheet of a major airline like CX. What IS important is being treated fairly throughout your career. That starts with honesty and equitable treatment. The Captains of this alrline have been basically cheated out of two years of 13th month the past three years. Most pilots were cheated out of their contractual compensation, through a cynical and manipulative narrative that has now just been proven false. The virus panic was after the fact. So no, I won't just let it go. CX has been raking in billions upon billions for decades. They will survive this difficult period. What they won't do is stop abusing their pilots if we don't stand up for fair treatment. You sound like a scared rabbit. Just what our management wants to see.

Well let’s all hope you are correct.

I'm just observing what is going on, nothing more.

ACMS is right on the money. Or lack of it. FFS catch a grip.
And where else would you get a job right now ?
The whole world is imploding. Not just locally.

Globocnik, kindly explain where ATY is incorrect. The amount of money involved in the 13th month issue is a relative rounding error to the company. The crisis will pass (they always do), but in the meantime you will have justified the company's continuing disrespect for your contract and your ongoing effort to do your job to the highest standards, and allow them to diminish the value of your career. Not to mention withholding monies that you and your family rightfully earned.

The company just declared a fairly healthy profit for the year. It is completely correct to insist that proper remuneration for that year, based on your CONTRACT is paid. To not do so, and just allow more abuse to pass into the history books only ensures the rest of your career will experience more of the same. Again, this crisis will pass. That has nothing to do with insisting on being paid according to your contract.

You people in here never give up do you.........

Time and a place........time and a place......

This ain’t the time or the place for chest beating......

We should be happy if cpa is still around at the end of this year and some of you fools are complaining you didn’t get 13th month.

Absolutely insane

And the fact that we also lose the associated P Fund payment never gets mentioned. That’s the reason the company likes to convert into a gratuity. Specious, sneaky, disgraceful, a breach of contract..words fail. Of course SLS will also mean a reduced PF. No doubt the people who dreamed this up are on a defined benefits scheme still.

Exactly. And again, unmentioned is reduction in retirement benefits. No mention by AOA, No action. Useless. Asking for SLS AFTER paying a fully earned 13th month would at least have given credence to the request for SLS. All one way as usual.

As someone else said. Being around in 3 or 4 months is the priority. We can then debate the niceties of whether this should have been paid, assuming that there’s a company left to debate with.
Patently ATY ans Managememt Mole haven’t been out of a job. ( I’ll apologize unreservedly if that is incorrect). I have. And everything turns to **** very quickly. War chest or not.

I rest my case.......

( where is the face slap Emoji when you need it ? )

And herewego you remind me of a naive optimist. And I sincerely hope it’s not here we go again. Still if you’re proved right and we’re proved wrong then it’s happy days. Is it not ? Except that you’ve had leave on my coin. And frankly I don’t really begrudge you that. SLS always had to be a personal choice. And a lot of us have made it and should be left alone to live with that decision.

Herewego75, I hope you're right, I really do.
Having said that, this is without doubt the biggest challenge we have faced yet, as an airline.
There is no telling how long it will last, and what the resulting economical fallout will be, and this on the back of bad hedging, months of protests (which in all likely hood will return once this is over with.)

The muppets are even protesting now. Nimbyism at its best re. quarantine accom, and quasi memorial services for dear departed.

Couldn’t resist a cheap dig at the 74 fleet could you? :rolleyes:

I know. Despicable. Perhaps a transfer to the jumbo, in reverse order of seniority, would help ?
These guys are keeping the whole show on the road ffs and deserve your support

gobby: (of a person) tending to talk too loudly and in a blunt or opinionated way.

I agree there should be transfers to the 747. No point in transferring junior guys who are about to be made redundant though.

I agree with ACMS, wake up! This is not over yet and things will get even worse before they get better.

Will CX survive? Sure, but what post COVID-19 will look like is the question.

The 2019 Annual Discretionary Bonus is gone, that’s a given. But it hurts neither the company nor the HKAOA to ask what the extreme circumstances were to not pay a single Hong Kong based staff member a cent of the ADB.
The current difficulties shouldn’t be an excuse to stop communicating. If anything, the more open and honest the dialogue, the more likely the staff will assist the company when the company most needs it.

The bonus is only "gone" because of attitudes like that. It's "gone" because the pilots are easily frightened, even to the point they won't insist on proper treatment under the terms of their actual contract. It's "gone" because the company can manufacture a crisis every year if they choose (the ADB was withheld BEFORE the virus panic became apparent). The management chose to once again take money from the one group who is easily manipulated, coerced and bullied. You are all affirming that point of view with your comments. CX has billions and billions of reserves, credit lines and political power (they actually made on average a MILLION AUS$ every single day of the year). They are not going out of business. They are however quietly laughing at the naivety and gullibility of their pilot workforce. I can't blame them.

PW, I must correct you. Nearly every other group in the company received a FULL 13th month. Effectively, only the pilots were cheated (once again) out of their rightful share. ATY

Why don’t all you bed wetters get a grip.

CX, and airlines like it, will survive this. And in the medium to long term will benefit substantially.
The short term massive hit to revenue will be more than offset in the future as this event will cull all the marginal two bit players from the scene.
All the pesky competition driving yields down will be gone. More slots will be available and less competition will mean higher fares for when that pent up demand comes.
in the mean time, suppliers, ones that Swire doesn’t own, will be squeezed to give better deals. No doubt they’ll find plenty of airport hotels suffering, so it’ll be a great opportunity to shift us to those, where they haven’t already, at cut price rates. Be assured; This crisis will create plenty of opportunities.

If this airline actually shared the treasure in the good times, then everyone would be invested in helping out in the bad. But they’ve chosen a different course; when times are good, we’re told disaster lurks in the next quarter, and when times are bad- well disaster is here, so it’s take, take, take at every opportunity. Which is fine, just don’t ask for my help.

Well said Ron. Agree word for word.

I must correct you ATY.

The CEO wrote on 4th December that the company “will NOT be paying a Discretionary Year-End bonus”. Zero. Nothing. To no-one. It wasn’t reduced. It wasn’t capped. (An ex-gratia payment doesn’t change this fact).

The company can only withhold the ADB completely in “extreme circumstances”. There is no harm in getting the company on record explaining what the extreme circumstances were on 4th December. In fact open and honest communication will only help the company when it needs help the most.

Progress. You are playing with semantics. Yes, you are technically correct. However, the $30000 discretionary payment conveniently represented a full months pay for the majority of employees. Of course, this meant that the pilots only received a fraction of their entitlement. I also know you are well aware of that fact. My statement stands.

You’ve argued that the association take LEGAL action to comply with your CONTRACT.

This is Hong Kong. Being technically correct (semantics as you call it) is very important if you’re involving lawyers and the courts. It actually works to our advantage that the company didn’t pay the ADB at all. There is quite a grey area where the company may cap or reduce the ADB. “Normally“, “satisfactory operating profit”, “as determined by the company“, “profitability is marginal”, etc.
However, there is only one scenario when the company can completely withhold it as they did. “In extreme circumstances”.

Why give management wriggle room when they’re cornered?

Well reasoned. Still, we are both aware of what happened, and the pilots were the losers. CX made a very decent profit, and therefore cannot legitimately deny us our 13th month. The AOA needs to push hard on this.

When has the AOA ever pushed hard on anything?


The time for push back was when CX asked for us to take SLS. We should have said no, as we had already 'given' a month's pay when everyone else got the equivalent of 13th Month and we were pineappled yet again.

Delta is looking at Chapter 11 already and a massive furlough. BA, yes that BA, are meeting with union groups including aircrew to discuss redundancies. Marginal two bit players indeed.......

In Europe alone there’s 7 operators who will be gone by end of April with over a thousand aircrew out of work. And we’re arguing SLS......

Pickuptruck. Stop spreading "fake news". Delta is NOT speaking of Ch11. They are one of the healthiest and strongest airlines in the industry. What they did say is that it is such an outlying event that they feel the Govt needs to assist the industry (are you listening HK Govt?). The world has lost its collective mind, and the travel industry is the worst affected. The US Govt will help the airlines. I should add that Delta has said they will probably lay off employees. CX might need to wake up to the same economic fact. CX will probably never be the same airline again. I can see that clearly just looking at my March schedule. It certainly doesn't need the current employees it has. Hard truth, but the truth nonetheless.