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-   -   COS18 (https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/613246-cos18.html)

Hydrolix 12th Sep 2018 06:29

COS18
 
Oh dear
Oh dear
Oh dear

Shoebox 12th Sep 2018 06:33

Designed to Repel Top Talent

Some How I'm Tired 12th Sep 2018 06:46

Just when you thought this place couldn't get any worse! If they can't attract talent now, how do they think they are going to with a massive reduction (destruction) in conditions?

At least we will know the I.Q. of anyone joining on these conditions...

AQIS Boigu 12th Sep 2018 06:46

Aimed at Top Talent from the DFO’s homeland

gretzky99 12th Sep 2018 06:48

Any chance the AOA will come to the conclusion that now is the perfect time to withhold ALL goodwill, and continue CC, including through the weekend and any unfortunately timed weather that might be present?

reazasassain 12th Sep 2018 06:49

Designed to undermine your condition of service. Good luck getting an adequate increase in the future with a new D scale.

Good job painting the future for all of us who have not applied to airlines back home. Such a pity

OK4Wire 12th Sep 2018 07:12

All stick and no carrot.


And the real reason for CMP is brought up:



"Target annual block hours have been set at a high, but attainable level [...] and will be supported by the new CMP enabling pilots to achieve target productivity levels." I assume that will be 900?



Thank you, HKAOA.

gretzky99 12th Sep 2018 07:17


..target estimated at 70% fixed and 30% variable..
More importantly, if you’re not near 900, it’s now a 30% paycut!

Panhandle 12th Sep 2018 07:30

That’s 900 stick hours, not credit hours I assume. What is the pfund contribution % for ground staff in HKG?.

Avinthenews 12th Sep 2018 07:32

How do we know it's 900 max it could be 1200 or no bunk credit, we have also received a cut as we will eventually be doing all regional for maximum productivity and minimum hours the new crew will do all the hours just to get a full pay cheque.

We are the HKAOA what will we do? Trainers are you going to train yourself into a lower pay scale?

I'm all right Jack 😠

raven11 12th Sep 2018 08:04

DESIGNED TO ATTRACT TOP TALENT

Eligible for discretionary year end bonus and profit share🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

Sadly, things will not change here. For those with options it would be prudent to explore and act on them; for those yet to join, it’s buyer beware!

The embarrassment continues...

SloppyJoe 12th Sep 2018 08:09

With this new contract surely we need to demand CMP requests are awarded in strict seniority. Transparency will be the only way to assure those on 08/99 are not just given the low productive trips resulting in min days off, but reaching 84 hours.

Jnr380 12th Sep 2018 08:13

Where do I sign?
After all I love paying 50% of my gross wage to rent a semi decent (by HK standards) size village house in the middle of nowhere!
At least Emirates gives you that for free with utilities included if that is your comparison .....

STW 12th Sep 2018 08:36

Many of those who commented on COS18 above are the very same guys who keep on telling LEP about how bad their package is. For years and years now.

Will you now continue the same genius strategy with those on COS18?

All you achieve is a perpetual big fat No in all future negotiations, meaning no pay rise and no secured housing deal.A constant impasse plus the occasional letter in the mailbox informing about the next unilateral change.
Is that what you want??

You guys just have to understand, pretty please, sugar plum with a cherry on top, pleeeeeeeease:

The market has changed,or at least the company thinks it has, either way, like it or not, they will probably get enough people. Nothing to do with the IQ of the new-joiner, the level of talent etc, it is simply still a better option than flying King Airs out of Kigali or working in a cubicle in Shenzen. You need to understand, please, it is not about what we think is fair and just ( I certainly don't), what we deem enough to live on, it is pure and simple a question of demand and supply.

Plus nobody is or was forced to sign and join COS 18 or the former C scale, let's not forget that either.

STW 12th Sep 2018 08:55

Firefly, since YEARS you and others are fantasizing about parked aircraft. Hasn't happened or has it?

Maybe it's cheaper for an airline to park instead of paying everybody more, maybe other reasons, what do I know or care! Totally irrelevant for us. Even IF it would happen, I could not care less.

TSIO540 12th Sep 2018 08:59


Originally Posted by abaderrr (Post 10247114)
From the outside in, how bad is it?

In 2014 I made $1.0M as an FO, on this contract if you work hard you could make $875,000 in 2019 with 28 fewer days of leave. An absolute joke! Honestly if you are on the hold file, DONT ACCEPT this crap!

unitedabx 12th Sep 2018 09:46

HKAOA totally blind sided by this new COS18. They were never even informed of it's publication. So what the **** do they do at the meetings they insist on attending with the company ? A very quick crunch of the numbers shows the FO salary to be "on a par" with most middle east operators BUT these carriers have tax free regimes and free housing and schooling. This new COS18 does not. So take away the real cost of living as a family in Hong Kong and your are 30-40% behind. Simple maths. The actual contract also permit DEC's should the market dictate.
KA union given a heads up last week.

Freehills 12th Sep 2018 11:02

I am almost impressed by their chutzpah.

KABOY 12th Sep 2018 11:26


Originally Posted by unitedabx (Post 10247171)
KA union given a heads up last week.

Really??? What was the heads up, as you seem to be clued in...

i wont say I smell bullshit as you enjoy the confrontation.

unitedabx 12th Sep 2018 11:49


Originally Posted by KABOY (Post 10247275)

Really??? What was the heads up, as you seem to be clued in...

i wont say I smell bullshit as you enjoy the confrontation.

Email from DFO last Wednesday and it was discussed in the week before the KA pay deal was agreed. Hence the rush to sign it you knew what was coming. Don't deny it.

Karrupted 12th Sep 2018 11:53

Easy.
Group-wide training ban, wef 01Dec18 (the day CoS18 becomes effective).
Anything less and we will be complicit in the destruction of our profession.
It really is that simple.

K.

mngmt mole 12th Sep 2018 12:14

A travesty. A sick joke and an affront on our profession. Anyone who isnt now planning on leaving deserves what they get. Its hard to comprehend how far this airline has fallen. Tragic.

Gnadenburg 12th Sep 2018 12:28


Originally Posted by unitedabx (Post 10247297)
Email from DFO last Wednesday and it was discussed in the week before the KA pay deal was agreed. Hence the rush to sign it you knew what was coming. Don't deny it.

What are you on about? On refection, the only heads up the KA guys may have had is the resignation of our Head of Training a few weeks ago ( sorry I don't know his correct title ). DPA found out today or just recently? I think we are in this together.

This is a brave counter-attack by the company that will only work if CX and KA pilots are truly routed.

STW 12th Sep 2018 12:31

mngmt mole, are you saying you are now escalating from seriously looking to planning to leave?

mngmt mole 12th Sep 2018 13:40

14 month from retirement STW. But I recieved your fatuous comment for the mindless value it represented. Perhaps you might want to comment on the value of the CX career to those under the age of 45? Ie: "0"

STW 12th Sep 2018 13:51

My point is people will still join and enough of us will stay.

I suggest to finally get on with it and sign the offered deal. It will not get better, we already lost 5% because unfortunately nobody listened to me. If we don't it will get even worse.


mngmt mole 12th Sep 2018 13:54

Interesting way to "make your point" STW. I believe you are the only one who understands your cleverness.

STW 12th Sep 2018 14:00

Achievements during CC and training ban ( as we speak):

- no 5 % pay increase
- no 2 year housing deal
- no HKPA increase
- closure of MAN
- no more basings
- D scale

mngmt mole 12th Sep 2018 14:06

Then attack the company and not your fellow pilots. Seriously...:rolleyes:

STW 12th Sep 2018 14:24

Fair point. My apologies, it was meamt as a joke about pilots who seem to talk a lot about leaving but never do. Nothing personal.

mngmt mole 12th Sep 2018 14:27

STW, many pilots ARE leaving (and COS 18 will turbocharge that trend). Let's put this one to bed shall we? (btw, I see you "are new here", "0" posts....otherwise known as management. Thanks for suggesting we should just "get on with it and sign the new deal". Are management really getting this desperate?)

Flying Clog 12th Sep 2018 15:27

This really is Cathay on it's death bed. The airline is completely screwed, and short term cost-cutting will kill it off completely.

Who in THEIR RIGHT MINDS would accept these terms knowing the cost of living and career prospect implications in Hong Kong?

Only one group - South African refugees. That's who this **** jellyfish is catering for, that much is clear. A slight increase in HKPA, overseas kid's education, commute to SA with the low cost of living, simples, come on over, the water is lovely.

NOW is the time to enact a group wide training ban, KA and CX. I should think a recruitment ban. Or maybe even a full on strike. Most of us don't care anymore.

Biggest mistake I ever made joining this sh!t shower of an airline.

Will IB Fayed 12th Sep 2018 15:47


Who in THEIR RIGHT MINDS would accept these terms knowing the cost of living and career prospect implications in Hong Kong?
lol, the same thing was said a few years ago. Trust me, the spikey haired brigade (MKII) will turn up and pay for their training.....

Gaisha 12th Sep 2018 16:21

Industrial action is the only method that KA should look to enforcing. Two airlines in CC, although not the end of the world for them, would certainly show the public that things are bleak across the entire group. Time to find your balls fellas. Seems you lost them a few months ago when you voted YES to 0%! The only way of redeeming yourselves is to convince the sympathisers amongst your lot that GOOD WILL goes unnoticed and exposes your weaknessesss. They will try and convince you that it’s only applicable to new joiners but they have effectively eliminated any possibility of an improvement on current contracts. The trainers are the backbone of their plan. They will decide the fate of this company.

cxorcist 12th Sep 2018 17:07

What’s obvious to me is that this new package will further lower the operating and experience standards among SOs and FOs. Over time, this will bleed into the captain ranks. This is what C&Ters should be really concerned about. Will it be your name on the certificate and file of these pilots when the inevitable accident occurs? Honestly, do you want that on your conscience? Take the industrial out of it. Are you actually willing to lower yourself this way? If the answer is yes, then you are no better than any of those pilot and non-pilot managers working on the third and ninth floors.

GTC58 12th Sep 2018 17:12

Bases are dead too. No point in having to comply with labour laws, when someone can have really cheap pilots in Hong Kong. Next NTC, early retirement packages to get more pilots on D scale.

unitedabx 12th Sep 2018 18:55

The company will have done it's homework and there will be hundreds who will apply even on COS18. All this was said about D Scalers and there are hundreds of them flying with us now. If you live in a country with a surplus of pilots and a passport that limits your travels then Hong Kong is one rare opportunity to get out and fly jets. For others they can get their pilots wings and live with mum and dad back in HKG so the cost of living isn't a factor. A recruitment ban. How's that going to work? CX does the recruitment not the AOA. A training ban ? Even AOA members have ignored that directive with absolutely no penalties applied. 4 more members moving up to STC on the A fleet this week alone. With Jet and Air India bankrupt there are thousands of pilots looking for a lifeline and the proposed starting FO pay scale is DOUBLE a Jet Airways captains pay. The sub continent will supply the pilots CX needs and miraculously bases will be offered in Mumbai and Delhi for Indian passport holders only ( of course ). Others talk of strike action. Never in a million years will that happen here. KA is being absorbed and will exist for AOC purposes only within 3 years. The task set by the Board to the new DFO is to merge the seniority lists by the end of his tenure. COS18 is phase 1. KA and CX pilots to act as one body. Really. When the CX captains were denied their 13th month did we see the KA pilots suggest a united front.No way. They took their money and banked it. KA pilots are on their own. The kid gloves are off and their cosy "flying club" is no more. They now face the full wrath of CX management and it will be lambs to the slaughter. This is the reality we find ourselves in.

Kitsune 12th Sep 2018 19:13

The sound of all those ‘B’ Scale pigeons coming home to roost must be deafening... the very same guys who undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract (after all, the company told us that they’d already recruited an entire year’s pilot requirement on the contract that we wouldn’t even contemplate) now whine and bleat about the very same thing happening to them, as we told them at the time. Suck it up.

unitedabx 12th Sep 2018 19:16


Originally Posted by Kitsune (Post 10247673)
The sound of all those ‘B’ Scale pigeons coming home to roost must be deafening... the very same guys who undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract (after all, the company told us that they’d already recruited an entire year’s pilot requirement on the contract that we wouldn’t even contemplate) now whine and bleat about the very same thing happening to them, as we told them at the time. Suck it up.

Kitsune you are so right.

Avinthenews 12th Sep 2018 19:33

A recent point raised this morning, IS IT OVER?

Either the AOA takes positive action or we simply become a membership with insurance benifits.

Are the laws in Hong Kong simply beyond western rules?


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