How to Negotiate
 

This video is about buying cars so whenever he mentions a car just mentally insert CoS, enjoy.

The AOA must make it explicitly clear to the company and the members that no agreement will be presented to the membership for consideration which would cost any pilot $, housing, COS to implement.

The company received legal advice that they couldn't change housing without agreement. Even though the company calls housing a 'policy', it has been in place for so long that in effect it is a COS.

The company will now be waiting for enough C Scalers to vote for a deal which would see an improvement to HKPA at the expense of the B Scale housing package. The company is waiting for 50 + 1. It must be made clear that this will not be allowed to work.

The company will have to increase HKPA anyway as the turnover of SOs and FOs is costing them too much. Recruitment is at a critical point. We have staff quitting for been told to meet impossible targets and those recruits who do show up have been failing the SIM check (so the SIM check has been made easier).

This is what happenes when you treat your pliots like crap...they leave and they tell their friends not to join!!!

Their 150 pilots shortage will not be sorted out until they sort the managgment out. Same as CX more and more will leave!

Anna. I just landed from a European port. Thought you might like to know, both FO's leaving. SO also leaving as soon as he has his QF position confirmed. For your accounting purposes, that makes 11 pilots I have flown with in the month of April that confirmed to me that they are leaving. I am one (1) Captain, and 11 random crew over the month are going. Not at some nebulous point in the future, but imminently. All experienced, and even the relatively inexperienced SO says he can't wait to get away from here. You and your management seem to be living in "LaLaLand". I suggest you use these negotiations to satisfy the career expectations of ALL your crew, or that 11 will seem a drop in the ocean by the end of next year.

...and btw, the SO told me that he "would rather drink cyanide than have drinks with you or your kind".... quote.

Think it's time to go fishin

Or huntin

Or water skiin

Or hikin

Too nice outside to be cooped up in a room with folks not ready to make a deal.

Maybe call back later in the summer and get together then for a howgozit

Or sometime downline when the company is really ready to make a deal.

No Clause 7
 

Plus the clause 7 only prevented the aoa leaders from organising CC/TB. Couldn't stop if it was put forward by the members

This whole negotiation is a front.

The GC will have to sit through it because any walk away early, will be twisted in the media to bash the pilots for being difficult and spoilt brats. It will be the public reason flights are cancelled or orders delayed. It will also be the reason upgrades will not be accelerated and used as a tool to divide and conqour the group. The company is flogging the business situation while it can.

It's all BS.

Nothing will ever change.

If they don't know what we want by now after HPE then what is the point of this sham of a negotiation.

Utter BS. Is all iican say.

They have already said there is no money for us and further reinforced it with an update on the business situation on the first day of negotiations.

If it looks like it! If it smells like it! then it's sure as S@#?… going to taste like it.... So why would you even put your finger in and have a try.....Jesus.....

This is way beyond RPs now, we have to claw back every piece of loose wording that allows CX to basically screw with your life for an entire career. They need to pay every time they juggle your life when they see fit, wether it's short term throwing reserve at you or long term leaving you stuck on a fleet that absolutely sucks and everything in between. As soon as it cost them money they'll stop doing it and perhaps we can have some sort and long term stability and plan a long term future and lifestyle with the ability to move fleets as our age and family change over possibly 30+ years.

It's now or never, we will never be in a position to fix the wrongs done over the past several decades. Some half arsed solution that ends CC will mean a career at CX/KA is truly over, shiny Jets will get them in the door and rusty seniority hand cuffs will keep you here! While the hits will keep coming relentlessly!

I can't post a link yet but look up the song "Toes" by the Zac Brown Band. This song seems to fit the situation and how most of us don't really care anymore. Just substitute Cathay for GA and it fits.

This line seems very fitting...

"Adiós and vaya con Dios
Going home now to stay
The senoritas don't care-o when there's no dinero
I've got no money to stay"

Air France grounds one 787 over union pilot training conflict


Apr 27, 2018 Helen Massy-Beres

Air France said it would be forced to ground one of its new Boeing 787 aircraft and reduce its flight frequency from Paris to Guangzhou, China over a disagreement with its main pilot union the SNPL about pilot training.

The news comes as Air France is locked in a wider conflict with its unions over pay: the airline group has launched a company-wide staff consultation on its latest pay proposal in a bid to break the deadlock, but three unions have called for a further four days of strike action on May 3, 4, 7 and 8, which would bring the total number of days of strike action in recent weeks to 15.

From May 2, the carrier will operate 3X-weekly to Guangzhou from its Charles de Gaulle hub, instead of five, using a Boeing 777 on the route to replace the 787, a spokesman said.

That involves canceling nine flights or 40% of its services over the month, but because the 777 has a larger capacity, equates to only a 17% reduction in seat capacity, the spokesman added.

The airline has made the changes to its schedule for a month initially but needs the SNPL to agree to renew an agreement allowing for 777 instructors to train 787 pilots to ensure more flights and aircraft are not affected.

Helen Massy-Beresford, [email protected]

fleet forum
 

Just did a Fleet forum. A Greg H came in to talk to us. Apparently he has been helicoptered in to help turn the titanic around.

What a f@#$ing moron. The guy is clueless. He is a small insecure man who can't handle being challenged.

Abandon ship everyone, with an idiot like that in charge there is no hope.

Not that hard.

Union gives a list of specifics and says here is what we require (which reflects a realistic retroactive inflationary adjustment as well as RPs--although RP-07 is not all that much different than RP-16 and neither are very strong documents). Perhaps add an extra 5% for some wiggle room back down to baseline in pay to 'compromise'. Restoration of 13th month and housing certainty an absolute requirement; without that a non-starter. And probably shore up the 13th month (and some other stuff) in concrete so folks can't be screwed in the future.

Company says 'cannot'

Union says 'well, give us a call when you can'

Then off fishin'

I don't like to name call personally. I believe there have been some grossly poor decisions made, but these decisions made I think were made not understanding the backlash they would create. Or the true damage a 'rolling reserve' scheduling process can do to an airline (where rosters are more placeholders than anything else). There is good reason most majors have 'owned' rosters backfilled with real reserve assets.

IMHO the 'hedging loss' and other chicanery is simply a red herring and ruse. In any case, it's not something we base OUR decision making process around.

IMHO, the company loves to play 'stupid.' IMHO they also like to warp the truth.

Problem is when you do either you can't really figure out if someone really IS stupid or is pretending, or is telling the truth or lying. So this doesn't work that well regardless. And you create a void of trust which cannot be easily fixed.

IMHO they also love the fat chick bait and switch; where they promise and stall to get them through gaps then right back to bizness as usual. Stall, stall, stall.

So absent a concrete yes, it's time to walk away. And go do something fun.

But probably not go to a rigged carnival game. It'll remind you too much of work.

Well said shep69.
They're so used to lying and chicanery that it's their (not so) new baseline. They're unable to negotiate in good faith - they need counseling and therapy to recondition themselves to be honest and forthright.
The irony of this impasse is that they've made otherwise compliant and cooperative employees change our "DNA" as well, and even if/when cc ends, many of us will never answer a 2747 call unless compelled to, or click on an OCN. Ever.
Well done, Swires - you've really screwed it up this time.

A place to start: honour the agreed to 25 year housing for non-C Scale.

Next. Increase the C Scale package (at no expense to any other staff) so that existing staff are retained and applicant quality is improved. (Does CAD know that new joiners are failing 528s at record numbers and the selection sim has been made even easier to try to increase recruit numbers?)

(Does CAD know that new joiners are failing 528s at record numbers and the selection sim has been made even easier to try to increase recruit numbers?)

Sounds like something the travelling public should be made aware of..

Harsh, but no doubt fair.

Hiro, neither harsh nor fair. Just a childish rant from you. I found the man intelligent and open. I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.

Don't break your leg climbing down from that pedestal.

GH is just another in a long line of Swire managers. They seem to think they have all the answers yet time after time they prove themselves utterly incapable of understanding the operation, the competition, and most importantly their employees. They refuse to go outside their incestuous circle to actually find credible expertise and insist on merely rearranging the cards over and over expecting that eventually they'll stumble on a solution. It might work in Solitaire but not a way to run a multinational corporation with tens of thousands of employees.

He wants the HKAOA to fold its tent and take what's on offer - more specifically, give up what they're told to give. Modern communications and social media means everyone has access to information instantly and that record doesn't fade with time. No room for half truths and narrative manipulation. CX management thinks we're a bunch of mushrooms living in the dark and eating up the bs they continuously shovel. Most guys understand this and are already on the way out the door.

No concessions, please:

Emirates to park 45 aircraft due shortage of pilots.

Tell Greg there will be no concessions from any group of pilots. Further, ALL groups of pilots expect and will hold out for a proper package, one that fulfills broken promises of the past, and makes up for years of abuse and deceit from our management. If there is the slightest hint of anything less being offered, close your briefcases and walk away. Just as hundreds of our pilots are now doing. Either our management respect the value and scarcity of their pilot workforce, or they can plan a pity party with EK management and figure out a place to park all their shiny jets together.

Air France-KLM CEO to step down after employee pay vote

May 4, 2018Helen Massy-Beresford

Air France-KLM CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac will submit his resignation next week after a majority of Air France employees rejected a pay proposal in a staff-wide consultation that had been his high-stakes bid to extract the airline from a costly labor relations crisis.

A series of Air France strikes—13 one-day walkouts so far in recent weeks—have cost the company at least €300 million ($359 million). Janaillac launched the consultation in April in a bid to break the deadlock, saying at the time that he would be “personally accountable for the consequences of the vote”.

The vote period ended today, Friday May 4, with 46,771 staff on French contracts at Air France given the chance to have their say electronically on the multi-year pay proposal management had put forward. With a participation rate of 80.33%, 55.44% of employees voted "no", Air France said.

“As a result, the pay agreement proposal of April 16 ensuring a 7% wage increase over 4 years, including a 2% increase in 2018, is no longer valid,” the company said, and Janaillac is following through on his promise to be personally accountable.

He will meet the Air France-KLM and Air France boards May 9 to submit his resignation, Air France said in a statement, adding that it would be their responsibility to take the appropriate measures to ensure the continuity of the group and Air France during the transition period, with Air France management, and its CEO Franck Terner, overseeing the day-to-day operations of the company.

The "growth pact" proposal, which promised a 7% wage increase over four years as well as individual increases, included scope for adjustments if Air France's financial result was less than €200 million ($246 million) and to apply a reversion clause in case of higher inflation or a negative financial result.

Unions led by the main pilots' union the SNPL have been calling for a bigger pay increase to take into account the preceding years of stagnating salaries.

Janaillac took the helm at Air France-KLM in July 2016 and later that year launched Trust Together, the group’s strategic plan aimed at allowing the Franco-Dutch group to regain the offensive and boost competitiveness in the face of fast-growing rivals. As part of the plan, Janaillac oversaw the creation of new carrier Joon as well as the signature of a wide-ranging north Atlantic joint venture with Virgin Atlantic and Delta Air Lines and partnerships with China Eastern Airlines, Jet Airways in India and Vietnam Airlines.

The results of the vote and the departure of its CEO come on the same day that Air France-KLM reported first-quarter results hit by the strike impact, with unit costs up 2.1% at constant currency, fuel and pension charges and 1.7% of that increase related to the strikes. Operating loss widened to €118 million from a loss of €33 million in the first quarter of 2017, with about €75 million of strike impact, the airline said, while it said its 2018 operating profit would be “notably below” 2017’s because of the financial impact of the strikes, currency fluctuations and a fuel bill €350 million ($419 million) higher than the previous year.

More strikes are planned for May 7 and May 8.

BM. I agree with a fair bit of what you said. But you missed the point. At my FF I found the maligned gentleman open, frank, encouraging and obviously intelligent. Insecure? Not open to challenge? Moronic? OK he is a bit altitude limited. He took a mountain of flack with generosity. Anyway I completely disagree with the post against which I commented. At the end of the day, do we want to sort the problems out or not? Blithering on about no retreat and no surrender is just a part of a line from a comedy movie. The world is more complex than that. We need both parties in the negotiation/s to be prepared to give a little than maybe we will, both groups, gain a lot. And NO I am not management and YES I have been here a long time and I still like the place, Hong Kong and Cathay.

As long as you, I and everyone else understands, the only career he is worried about is his own. His career is with Swire, not CX. If he thinks that career will be better served by selling out you, I and everyone else, he'll do it in a heartbeat and never loose a wink of sleep.

Shortly2 what fleet are you on?

I want to get this right, you want something now for the 3-5 years you'll be an S/O and sacrifice the possible improvments that will benifit you for 20-30 years (as in when you're a captain). :ugh:

He's a troll, ignore him. He might want to consider that without a deal that satisfies ALL groups, there won't be a training department left to provide him his precious upgrade. The trainers aren't going to get screwed and then happily train a group that was responsible for that. This negotiation is about righting 20+ years of wrongs. There will never be a better chance to establish a basis for a proper career than than the one we have now. Nearly all the pilots I speak with understand that, and are resolute in seeing this through to the end. Backtothegrindstone is the type of troll we can expect to hear from over the coming weeks. Our management can't help themselves.

Hang on...thought I had better add a bit of this: !!!!!!! ;-) !!!!! (-: s, !!!!! %$&*%^ !!!!!! (just to make backtothegrindstone feel at home).