HKG 07R Runway Incursion 23th Dec 1300Z
 

Does anyone bother looking out of the window nowadays?

soundcloud (dot) com/flywithsteven/vhhh-twr-south

I have a couple of problems with this incident

1. Why wasn't the ATCO not taken out of service after the runway incursion?

2. Did the ATCO not look outside when he issued the departure clearance to HKA333?

3. CX Cargo - The Pilot Monitoring really needs to go back and do his comm's ground school again or have his ICAO English LPR revoked! Totally unacceptable for a PPL Pilot, let alone an ATPL flight crew.

4. Did the CRK flight crew not look outside either? With 8K vis you can see the end of the runway.

VHHH 231230Z VRB01KT 8000 FEW040 21/13 Q1017 NOSIG

We're going to end up with a massive firework display just like the one in Tenerife one day!

Wow all I can say is wow. Whoever gave that individual a pass in English proficiency needs to be fired as well.

Shocker! Not. It will happen. CX has FOs so green and with such horrible English skills that an accident is truly inevitable. The worst part for CNs is that this turns the operation into single-seat piloting (or worse since you have to monitor the PM as PF) and fatigue becomes even more critical, especially as CMP will have us all working harder and closer to the FTLs. Will RH, AT, and DP be taking responsibility when it does happen? Absolutely NOT! It will be pinned on the pilots, who will very likely be dead anyhow, but it will be a fun venture for their surviving families living in a now very hostile HK. Sad.

Well, this thread is less than 3 hours old, and that track is not showing up on the soundcloud website. Was it a CX airplane involved? That would explain a quick cover up.

Edited version

soundcloud (dot) com/flywithsteven/vhhh-twr-south

Sorry ... I've fixed the broken link

Prior to this happening I understand China Southern had an aircraft out of radio contact with tower for ten minutes. Also the dynasty had a medical emergency.

Big delays all round.

Not really sure what the problem is here.

The ONE person (captain), did what he was supposed to do.

$afety at its best right there.

Continue on.

I am sadly confident in saying this: It is only a matter of time before we are confronting a tragedy. And it's not only the poor language skills of some of the SO's, but the distraction, anger, frustration and futility evident in the attitude and demeanour of many of the aircrew in our cockpits today. Management take most of the responsibility for creating such a toxic and unsafe situation. To AT,DP,RH et al, you can be certain that when that day comes, I will be ensuring the focus is squarely on you and your complicity in that event.

Correct Average Fool, however the multitude of embarrassing errors that lead to that point is the problem. Way too many holes in the cheese lined up, but luckily someone did do their job correctly.

Average Fool. I am assuming your comment is dripping with sarcasm...?

Why the subject controller was still on active duty for at least 30 min after the incident? During this 30 min, he still handled two RWY crossings! What was the Tower Supervisor doing at that time? In fact, did he/she know what had happened?

Good situational awareness was shown by the CX crew after hearing the controller had cleared the HKA to depart at the same time. The first transmission by the female pilot was misleading - "CX071 is clear RWY". It was only recovered by the male pilot - "CX071 is on the RWY crossing".

While the HKA crew had no situational awareness at all. They should know the Cathay was crossing the RWY. They did not query the departure clearance but instead started the take off roll. Only stopped after the CX crew blasted on the radio.

Two similar incidents in three months.

...tick, tock, tick, tock.....

Zowie.

Lots of holes lining up.

It was good that the skipper (after hearing what was happening)--in plain english and assertively-- stated "we are NOT clear of the runway we are ON THE RUNWAY" at the right time and in a manner that could not be misunderstood. This helped avert an accident.

Stuff like this is what pilots get paid for and why experience and judgment is very important in this business.

My post was only sarcastic from a pilot perspective,

Management perspectiv?? Zero sarcasm.

That was downright scary.

The management are literally gambling with lives placing such experience levels in cockpits for the sake of cutting costs and boosting bonuses.

That is an understatement. Bean counters have no ability to 'measure' experience. To them, Pilot 'A' costs more than Pilot 'B', therefore, Pilot 'A' must have his remuneration cut to that of Pilot 'B', or employ more pilots at the Pilot 'B' level, thinking that lower cost is good, regardless of experience. Cue eventual headline on the front page of SCMP. :mad:

AGNES

I’m not taking sides etc, however, saying a crew has good SA whereas the other crew didn’t. Doesn’t really fall into perspective.

Generally departing off 07R nowadays there a lot of waiting. 6-7 aircraft on H or J. Seems to me that when you’re cleared to line up, you have a little excitement spike in your SA, competing the check list, start lining up.

From J1 to J11 it’s around 3700m or so, at night, I doubt any bugger can see the aircraft starting or nearly crossed the end of the runway.

Yep, the CX crew at this point have a highest SA only due to the fact that they are crossing the runway and we’re cleared to. Hence. You’ll be alert of ‘cleared for takeoff runway 07R!

ATC have a significant element of blame here. As some one else mentioned, looking out the wondow does help, from a height. Out of the window 20ft up and 4K along a surface doesn’t too much.

Merry Christmas All.

Wow, the FO on 071 needs to think about what they said, double Dutch!! Thank goodness the CN jumped in clearly.

Lucky someone had their head in the game.

Surely he is worth 35k at least?
I don't think the RQ was one of the young ones out of their depth, just tired, as you would be, 3 crew with an S/O from ANC.

Misunderstanding between clear and clear, she probably meant cleared to cross and not clear off the runway.

That's probably why at the age of autoland aircraft we still have windows in cockpit. Mistakes, Fatigue all part of ATC and pilots jobs and we accept it.

Hope we won't reach Chinese ATC standard where they won't line you up until aircraft has crossed to avoid the risk but then create big delays.

I’ve heard this before elsewhere, and I’ll repeat it here. Perhaps the word “clear(ed)” should only be used for takeoff and landing clearances. Otherwise it’s “push, taxi, cross, hold,...” Thoughts?

How about ‘vacate’ or ‘vacated’ instead of ‘clear’ for the appropriate context?

etops330

i agree there is a nasty incident coming to Hong Kong. in this latest incident there was a buffer of 3700m. i personally witnessed an incident a few years ago where the buffer was 8 feet! it involved a Cathay 747 holding on j8 as both twy H and J were blocked with tows and taxying aircraft. the tail was over the edge of the runway. duty runway 07R for take off and landings. A departing Cathay 747 for London was cleared for take off and rolled. He had to come off the centreline 8 feet as he rotated to miss the tail of the 747 at j8. the pilot of the departing aircraft would remember the event as he submitted an incident report on arrival London. There was no investigation by CAD.
the time has come for a completely independent investigation department, completely seperate from CAD.

Is everyone positive the person transmitting with ‘questionable English ’ was part of the CX 071 crew? I’ve looked at the crew list and the accent does not match. Am I missing something?

Agree. I noticed the same. Confused...

Agree 100%. “Runway vacated” is MUCH more appropriate, but should only be necessary if asked. Otherwise, look out the window!

How ironic that a major incident with potentially disastrous consequences was averted by the only one not to receive a Xmas bonus this year. The CX Captain.

It is of course of great concern that this has happened for the second time in a few months. Let's not forget though that even if HKA had continued the take off it would have easily cleared the jumbo by maybe a 1000ft. Even with an engine failure it should have cleared it.
In China I've noticed that crossings tend to be done at the runway ends now following the near miss in SHA in order to reduce the risk when a conflicting clearance is given.

GMEDX,

The end result is you get horrible taxi distances and for what? Protecting yourself from your own incompetence and even then do we think that guaranteed 35/15ft at the end of the runway is enough!! If they are not up to doing the job they shouldn't be there .... not making daft mitigations that don't pass scrutiny.

744, horrible taxi distances for what? More EFP that's what, I love PEK 36L and then taxi round the top of 36R, it is a real money spinner.
Also, if HKG ATC is going to keep making mistakes then the risk must be mitigated.

the holes are aligning

I think he/she intended to Google it...


Pass the Swiss cheese, dear.

Your suggestion is as per ICAO phraseology cxorcist.

“Cross runway .....at...” is the correct phrase.

On the airfield, “Cleared” shall only be used when issuing landing or takeoff instructions. (Airways Clearance on the blocks excepted)

Not ok in any country! Better than a midfield cross? Sure, but not in any instance acceptable. It could easily have been a max weight jumbo taking off.

I notice how some busy airports like ORD and ATL, the crossings are being reduced significantly by running the arriving traffic behind the departures after landing. They are even using intersection departures to facilitate this in some cases.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

No telling how this could have turned out. Perhaps the -8 would have cleared before the other jet came roaring by, perhaps the other jet would have tried to abort and collided with the -8 at high speed, perhaps he would have stopped at low speed, perhaps the other jet would have tried to yank the jet off the runway (ala KLM) overrotated and stalled, perhaps he saw the other jet and was delaying his roll a bit until it cleared, perhaps he would have cleared it just fine--you name it. In any case it's a serious incident and runway incursions are a very big deal. US controllers use a great deal of judgment in crossing and landing clearances (which is good and efficient), but no one I know of clears a jet for takeoff until crossing traffic is clear. So it was obviously an error and some quick and positive thinking (with good SA) and unambiguous communication by the -8 skipper prevented a bad situation from developing.

Aircraft need to cross runways at whatever intersection works. And operating efficiently with the concrete you have to work with is important. So this is and will be the deal worldwide. No amount of procedural 'stuff' can account for all contingencies. You can minimize traps, but something will always come up which is outside the box and you don't want to hamstring yourself excessively in making an airport 'work.'

Like I said this is what pilots (and controllers) get paid for and why experience and judgment is WAYYYYYY important. Doing the right thing at the right time. Realizing that mistakes are going to happen and being able to solve situations to mitigate the risk and damage caused by them. And knowing what the right thing and the right time is. And you get what you pay for. Something the bean counters should take note of.

The last paragraph of that post is the message management needs to hear over and over.

Need to look at originating date of flight at origin dep place, not date in HKG

The voice that tries to communicate that 071 is still on the RWY is the same voice that acknowledges the clearance to cross albeit in a slightly more agitated tone. It sounds European to me which matches the name.

Is this an issue that only afflicts cargo / GA? How is it going to work when the third runway opens, is 07R/25L going to be given over? I hope ATC can sort themselves out before then.

Doesn't GFS affect it too? Though admittedly less often