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-   -   FO / SO authority increase (https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/594357-fo-so-authority-increase.html)

Trafalgar 8th May 2017 10:10

Friend of STW? And don't worry, you'll outgrow your 10kt limit eventually....

mngmt mole 8th May 2017 10:34

In 20 yrs, we've gone from being an airline that only hired experienced pilots with proven skill levels, to an airline where a worrying amount of FO's can't consistently land the airplane properly. That is a fact, and not just opinion. But why is that in question, when you have most JFO upgrade candidates having only a few hundred hours of actual flying experience, and that on very small aircraft. The holes in the swiss cheese are slowly but surely lining up. :ugh:

MENELAUS 8th May 2017 10:49

Yes STW is my bru' man. Absolute top banana.
10kts. ? Don't do anything. Just encourages phugoids. 25 kts and 345 tonnes landing weight. That get's my attention.

Trafalgar 8th May 2017 10:53

It's your need for a 'banana' that's most worrying;)

MENELAUS 8th May 2017 15:21

Yes banana for the landing. Except they've scrapped our fruit tray.

Trafalgar 8th May 2017 16:18

:eek:......

VforVENDETTA 8th May 2017 19:25

It's about turning the leader-follower command and control system to the leader-leader system. Read the book called "Turn the ship around" by L. David Marquet and Stephen R. Covey and you'll see what it's about. The 19th century master & commander/capt. airline system which is the leader-follower system currently still prevelent at cx has been proven to be a pathetic failure in efficiency and safety compared to the leader-leader system. It is grossly inefficient in many ways. As typical of cx, they're taking slow baby steps to change almost 20 years behind the industry leaders in this matter as in all other matters. They can't clearly or honestly communicate much, including this. One of the few exceptions to this inability to communicate is the Boeing CP. If you read his newsletters, it's very clear that this has been coming in the pipeline, however slowly.

As usual, ignorance reins supreme on pprune. Same ignorant idiots posting the same ignorant idiotic crap, day after day. I'll take another look next year.

SloppyJoe 8th May 2017 20:58

Not tarnishing all with the same brush but one SO asked why the new procedure for aligning the IRS is not always followed, full align after every crew change. This after returning from his inflight rest, wanting to switch of the IRS's to do the full align as there had just been a crew change. Your leader leader idea would be great here.

Or the FO who used full rudder during the cruise when adjusting his seat.

Or the guy who spent a whole flight planning his venture into dry ice manufacture in Hong Kong as importing it 4KG at a time is so wasteful, how his eyes lit up thinking that there must be no one manufacturing it in the city if it is imported at such expense, and so wastefully, must only be traces left by the time it arrives.

There is a reason why progression happens at an airline and some don't make the cut.

I honestly think the way it is here is quite healthy, most captains let the FO get on with it without much input. Most SO's ask questions during their tenure in that position. The progression and adding of responsibility seems pretty sound. SO, JFO FO RQ CN. Why the sudden reinventing of the wheel?

BusyB 8th May 2017 21:24

Well V, Using the word honestly when referring to CP is a joke. Don't know of any manager with that plus integrity in CX.:confused:

Natca 8th May 2017 22:27


Originally Posted by SloppyJoe (Post 9764964)
Not tarnishing all with the same brush but one SO asked why the new procedure for aligning the IRS is not always followed, full align after every crew change. This after returning from his inflight rest, wanting to switch of the IRS's to do the full align as there had just been a crew change. Your leader leader idea would be great here.

Or the FO who used full rudder during the cruise when adjusting his seat.

Or the guy who spent a whole flight planning his venture into dry ice manufacture in Hong Kong as importing it 4KG at a time is so wasteful, how his eyes lit up thinking that there must be no one manufacturing it in the city if it is imported at such expense, and so wastefully, must only be traces left by the time it arrives.

There is a reason why progression happens at an airline and some don't make the cut.

I honestly think the way it is here is quite healthy, most captains let the FO get on with it without much input. Most SO's ask questions during their tenure in that position. The progression and adding of responsibility seems pretty sound. SO, JFO FO RQ CN. Why the sudden reinventing of the wheel?

Much easier system to just have FO and Captain. If you cant hack it as a FO you shouldnt be in the seat. The whole JFO thing is a joke that is created by forcing a zero time pilot to sit as a SO for five years. Simple fix is FO RQ CN.

InSoMnIaC 9th May 2017 00:33

I must admit, I don't know what all this nonesense is about but has anyone considered that its not their (flt ops) authority to give?

Dilbert68 9th May 2017 19:02

Legally, the Captain is responsible for everything.

There is nothing that can be mandated by Anna or any of the fleet offices that will change that. I try to give as much responsibility to FO's/SO's who are keen and willing and actually know their job.

Unfortunately, most of them have to be told to put their phone away as we taxi out to the runway.

Everyone is disillusioned with the company in some respect but have some professionalism and do your job well. That will lead to the respect you seek.

Sand Man 9th May 2017 20:28

Dilbert68

Unfortunately, most of them have to be told to put their phone away as we taxi out to the runway.
In my experience there are more CNs that check their phone on taxi. I will concede that some SOs check phones/play games on their iPad but this should no longer be possible.
All for delegating responsibility down but training needs to step up to allow this to happen. Does a 200hr ADL grad really know what he is looking for on a walk around? Apart from that I find in general CX does have a culture of shared input however as previously mentioned the CN is always the individual (can't say guy anymore) responsible.

Oasis 9th May 2017 22:50

Don't we have something in place already?
It's called CRM. Management trying to reinvent the wheel as usual.

Scoreboard 10th May 2017 00:06

nothing opens your mind and shuts down your heart when some little f/o stamps full rudder for 3 knots x-wind...............

Fleet training....just check to line let the line pilots finish their training..................

Captain Dart 10th May 2017 00:48

Could this 'Authority Increase' be a pathetic attempt to motivate the numerous SOs and FOs, who will be waiting a long time for Command, who are looking at quitting for greener pastures, not to leave?

They will try everything except 'pay the money'. Tight as a trout's earhole.

P.S. This post also written by an 'Unpaid Training Captain'.

bm330 10th May 2017 03:35

This is just the predecessor to the FO fuel monitoring project. They've found that long time Captains don't react to threats and intimidation. If Commands are held in limbo, FOs will be forced to buckle under - or else.

bekolblockage 11th May 2017 04:20


nothing opens your mind and shuts down your heart when some little f/o stamps full rudder for 3 knots x-wind...............

That would explain my (SLF) "tank slapper" of an arrival on 07L last Monday morn in light winds. Have never experienced such high alternating, (and for a while increasing!) lateral G forces on landing. Would have been even more interesting in the wet!

Xwindldg 11th May 2017 05:08

Who was PF in the last batch of A50 hard landings?

Xwindldg 11th May 2017 05:16

A couple were definitely the CN as PF..... but going by the shuttle commander heros like bekolblockage how could that be?


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