Good luck surviving in HK on CX pilot pay scales.
 

A good article from one of HK's more insightful writers. Take particular note of the cost of education and housing. You will never own a home, and your children will suffer...

Hong Kong’s a rip-off, even if you’re rich

Rising costs of rent and education are making the city unaffordable. And that’s not going to change as long as bureaucrats are running the show

PUBLISHED : Monday, 24 April, 2017, 7:30am

http://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default...?itok=TND40rmn
Peter Guy

29 Mar 2017

It is said that the rich man thinks only about money. But, in truth it is the poor man who can think of nothing else.
In “Asia’s (most expensive) world city”, you would be surprised who considers themselves to be poor. You can’t measure or hide behind anecdotal evidence showing the deteriorating quality of Hong Kong’s basket of economic goods that constitute quality of life.
If well paid locals and expatriates who work directly or indirectly in financial services are relocating because they can’t keep up with housing and education costs, then how difficult it must be for average citizens
A locally based senior executive at an international asset manager, frustrated at paying HK$68,000 a month for a flat in Aberdeen for his wife and two kids, decided to move to the suburbs of Taipei where he could afford to rent a house with a garden – and a better quality of life. He travels most of the week, but returning to Taipei is only an hour’s trip. As he said, “Living costs just devoured most of my basic salary each year in Hong Kong.”
Then, an Australian real estate executive told me he can’t keep up with Hong Kong’s insatiable for-profit education system that forces you to deposit about HK$2 million to HK$3 million in school debentures years before a child even enters school. Worst of all, he felt many of the Hong Kong private schools were really no better than free, public schools in Australia.
Hong Kong the world’s priciest home market for the seventh year
When a senior American manager of a global brokerage was finally appointed as the head of Asia, he immediately relocated his family and the head office to Singapore – “for the educational sake of my kids.” He was “tired of paying tuition increases every year for local private schools who were clearly raising fees without offering any new facilities or teaching value.” He believed Singapore’s private schools were more stable.
The semblance of quality of economic life appears to be cracking in Hong Kong. If well paid locals and expatriates who work directly or indirectly in financial services are relocating because they can’t keep up with housing and education costs, then how difficult it must be for average citizens.

One argument comes from those who say Hong Kong has always been an economic pressure cooker that breeds struggle. It’s never been cheap to live and operate here – but now, for many years running, Hong Kong has become relatively and absolutely expensive.
Hong Kong used to boast about its ‘wild west’, free market. Now after eight years of setting records, the real estate market still refuses to turn down.
Hong Kong’s famous free market and ‘positive non-interventionist’ government policy have evolved into their own brand of free-market failure
But Hong Kong’s famous free market and “positive non-interventionist” government policy have evolved into their own brand of free market failure. As Marx described, the end game of capitalism is when capitalists, with the unwitting aid of government, become oligarchs through greater economic concentration. And the outcome of the proletarian revolution is wealth redistribution.
However, the rich and powerful, as Marx observed in his time, as today, are incapable of reforming or giving in.
Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee, a former chief executive candidate, certainly painted a bleak, but realistic picture to me in a Feburary interview. “You need a more reformist leader, not a bureaucrat to make significant changes. You need outsiders with a firebrand approach. Bureaucrats have been part of the system for too long and they are reluctant to change. Bureaucrats rarely take controversial positions.”
Thus, since 1997 the Hong Kong government has turned out to be quite restricted and circumscribed in its policies and powers despite the Basic Law. It maintains economic and social order through a century-old model that integrates the colonised into government power, while still keeping the colonial subjects in their place. By refusing them the ability to implement economic reforms, Hong Kong people can prosper in Chinese territory, but they can never truly be citizens.

Standing by for a brushwinger to say it's not that expensive.

Is it really that bad in HK?

It's why the kids came onto the streets with their yellow umbrellas.

It's important to make the potential new CX snowflakes aware of all the relevant facts. I am providing a public service. :)

I don't disagree with your message, but do you think calling them snowflakes is a good way to get them to respect your opinion?

If they can't even stand being labeled a 'snowflake', I don't think too much of their ability to learn and lead. Basically, the mere fact they may be 'offended' by the term only confirms that they are, in fact, a 'snowflake'. (and i'm not particularly concerned if they 'respect' my opinion).

The fact that a 'name' is all it takes to get you riled up to that degree is all the proof of my point. And btw, you have no idea what my own context of the word 'snowflake' is. It's your self anointed definition that is all to obvious by your comments. I might add that my own thoughts on the profession today, and the people it attracts are largely formed by what I see daily around me. You can dislike 'grumpy old codgers', but they are the ones who have the experience and longevity to legitimately analyse what the 'state of the nation' is in the industry today.

Obviously the way to survive on CX pay scales is to become a trainer, and get that sweet sweet training bonus

Traf,

which part of "market forces" don't you understand ?

....the part where you sell your talents for pennies on the dollar...? Oh, wait....no, I figured that out decades ago. You?

Ok, let me explain " market forces" to you.

Slowly.


First you look at your OPTIONS.

Then you COMPARE those options.

Then you make a DECISION.



Now, let's practise with an example!


You are a 20-30 year old First Officer at a Commuter Airline in South Africa.

Because you are from South Africa, you hold a South African Passport.

All clear until now? Easy. Step by step, we are getting there.

Now compare your options.

Option A

You can stay where you are. Your salary is about 20 000 HK$ after tax, you are based in Joburg ( your family and friends are in Cape Town). Occasionally you are a bit worried about crime and the general political situation, just a tiny little bit. Your career chances are sort of limited, you fly 90 hrs short haul, and your company laid off a third of their pilots last year.

Option B

You can join Cathay Pacific. Your starting salary is 3 times as much, you wife can work as an English teacher with an additional salary of 20 k, you live in a 2 bed DB for 18 k. A bit small, yes, but you kind of enjoy walking outside without getting mugged. Also you find a layover in Paris slightly more relaxing then in Lagos.

Option C

You can join EK. Your salary is less than at Cathay, your work load is significantly higher, your living cost are roughly the same.



Now, please, with sugar on top, understand:

No answer you are about to give that contains the words " should have, would have or could have" are valid arguments.

The mean thing about market forces are:

you have to make a decision based on your options in the real world, ok? You got that?

I say it again: The REAL world.

The cost of living is substantially less in Dubai than HKG with a 1500sqft 3BR apartment provided for free OR you can buy your own with EK's housing allowance for a fraction of the price in Tung Chung or DB without the extra stamp duty.

...and you are closer to your family in RSA.

A no brainer really for anyone on C or D scale.

Sure, Aquis. Dubai is the land of milk and honey. Buahahahaha.

By the way, you cannot buy in Dubai because the cash option is not offered anymore.

Your dream flat-for-free is in the dessert in some concentration camp/ compound.

Cost of living are NOT significant cheaper in Dubai if you accept a smaller flat.

What advantage has it to be 4 hours closer to home if you have 9 days off ( not in a row), you fly 100 hrs and can't commute anyway?

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

Fascinating story by the way, Normanton.

I never said that - all I said was that the cost of living is cheaper than HKG and that it would be easier to get into the market with more bang for your buck.

But how would you know...I believe you are on the 777 hence you haven't been to DXB in years.

Maybe not, but it's a great way to illustrate the level of respect they will be getting from their employer and colleagues.

Hong Kong and Dubai are not long term options. (for a family of 4)

C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK....

Take the job if you don't have other options though.

So why cant CX offer a commuting contract like ANA or Korean? Seems like a win-win no? 13 days off, good quality of life back home. Wife and kids are happy. And CX saves a bunch of money on housing and education subsidies. Whats the problem with that?

That's what I used to say regarding this lot for over a quarter of a century. But now, CX is attracting lots of 'shiny jetters' and South Africans desperate to get out of their dysfunctional homeland so maybe the company feels they don't need to. Housing 'subsidy' is significantly lower and education allowance is now non-existent. Both these groups are flying for peanuts and accepting living conditions in Hong Kong on the offered terms, there are plenty of trainers voluntarily diluting their own contract and training them up to standard, so on the whole, the jets are being crewed.

So now, where is the incentive for them to offer commuting or bases? CX could'n't care less whether wives or family are 'happy' unless a critical mass of pilots vote with their feet and leave for that reason, and that hasn't happened so far. And senior (read 'expensive') crew who leave are replaced with the trained-up 'cheapies' so it is actually win-win for the company.

Spot on, Cpt Dart

Having spoken to several of the South Africans in HK, I get the impression that many are keen to work in the Sandpit as it's so much easier to get home for visits. But they didn't have experience to work for the ME3 at the time. They're getting it now!

You clearly don't work for CX.......

Over the years, there have been so many win-win opportunities, but the mangement have steadfastly refused to entertain any of them. It's always been about control.

note: anyone who's been at CX for a while will understand my deliberate misspelling of mangement.

"Hong Kong and Dubai are not long term options. (for a family of 4)

C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK...."

WHY????? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVES???? NOTHING!!!!!!


I urge you to see Cathay not from YOUR perspective, but from those who join NOW and have to survive in a brutal market.

Since YEARS you guys are fantasizing of crew shortages, smoking holes in the ground, lack of experience, bla bla bla.

NOTHING of these gloom and doom has EVER materialized. EVER!

And STILL you believe it, STILL you judge new joiners, STILL you believe they will run away to EK ( ridiculous!!!), STILL you are patronizing all those poor souls, it is a "no-brainer" bla bla bla.

You just do not understand the LIMITED POSSIBILITIES. The world is different from when YOU came here, the market has totally changed. Jesus!! What is so hard to understand???

STOP FIGHTING HKPA, ACCEPT REALITY, CONCENTRATE ON SAVING ARAPA AND REGULAR PAYRISES !!!!

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/59...gh-enough.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/55...tion-tips.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/48...rohibited.html

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/58...sion-ever.html

By far the best option!

If I remember rightly the 'Mangers' NTC came out after. Written and spellchecked by 'Richard Gear' I think.

Indeed it has...... never could you walk into an airline with no experience, or brains. Suck it up princess, you are getting paid what you deserve.

Frank,

I totally agree with you that CX isn't what it used to be, all I am saying is:

what matters for a new-joiner is the relative value of the current contract compared to the alternatives.

We are living in a bubble.

How do you think pilots at HK Airlines or at Air Hong Kong survive? Can they save ? Do they live in big flats?

The world has changed. The idea e.g. to have the luxury of a stay-at-home spouse and a couple of kids, maybe that is a thing of the past?

Again, I am not saying that this is a good thing!

It simply doesn't matter what we think, the market will decide.

Let's not lose ourselves in hypothetical, pointless discussions about what should or could be. Let's face reality. And let's stop patronizing new-joiners and accept they actually DID think well and hard about the terms and conditions before joining.

Which is why I do have empathy for them , but at the same time no motivation to sacrifice my own contract for them.

I did not change the contract, nor did I force anyone to accept it.

PS I still would take Anchorage over Lagos.

Dan,

are you saying bitching and moaning on the flight deck is an invention of the C scalers?

How did C scale change my contract? When?

C scale has been introduced 7 or 8 years ago, no change yet!

The idea that improved terms on the C scale would protect B scales is absurd. How?

Again, you are losing yourself in mind games and conspiracy theories in my opinion.

Cathay Dragon crews are helping the company in these difficult times.
A 75% vote to accept an indefinite pay freeze . The agreed freeze is until March 2018 but we know that's not the end of it. Give ' em an inch ....

Local contract guys did ok. Increased levels of child education subsidy and an offer to move over to standard contract therefore allowing those on local B increased housing AND full educational subsidy.

You've gotta laugh though. At what point will management engage in meaningful pay negotiations when they pilot body are such an easy push over ? Just offer another pay freeze in 2018-19, in return the company will look into the pilots medical insurance, salary claims, overnight allowances blah blah.

It will happen, mark my words. And meanwhile inflation continues its inexorable erosion of KA pilots real salary value.

Totally agreed, Frank. Some people might regret the move, they might move on, even leave aviation. All quite possible.The current conditions offered might not be sufficient to keep C scalers in the long run.

But why should that matter today in terms of contractual negotiations ?
Why should a company offer better conditions now ?

Wouldn't that be like wearing a fur coat in summer because it will get cold in winter?

If people decide to leave, they could just improve the package, right?

PS I know the 747 roster is very problematic at the moment. No offense was intended.

Are they giving quick command now?

Guys, apologies for crashing the CX thread here but it seemed like the best place to post this question. I'd like to address the salary question from the opposite perspective - I'm a bizjet guy and been offered a left seat with a HKG base. I haven't signed the contract but the salary on offer, all in, is coming to $150K HKD/month, no other allowances like house/school. I have a wife, 2 kids, plus 1 on the way. I haven't signed the contract yet but from reading all your posts here am starting to get a bit nervous.

For all you guys out there who have families - is this enough to live on? When I say 'live' I mean send kids to decent international school, rent a place that isn't a shoe-box on 99th floor, run a small car, and still have a bit left over to put in the kitty?

Thanks for your time.

STW. So, you imply that 'our' comments are dishonest? According to who, yourself?. Why don't you tell him how that is more than enough money to drag his family here. Why don't you tell him that he and his family will enjoy living in a 500 sq/ft apartment. And then of course there's food, utilities, insurance, medical costs (!), transportation, the cost of travel (or I guess the wife and kids can just stay 12mo/yr in HK?). So please, as you chimed in, give the man the 'truth'. :D

FYI: SamTingWong had a post up (between mine and the one above) a few minutes ago suggesting that most of us weren't being 'honest' with our account of costs in HK. Well, he deleted his post. I guess he realised that once again he was proving himself a complete w@#ker. Coward.

http://www.dbis.edu.hk/401/admissions/fees

https://www.spacious.hk/en/hong-kong/discovery-bay/for-rent?gclid=COWWhI2H4NMCFc8TaAod6W8BiQ


PS I personally would not do it, but since
a) I don't know your alternatives
b) you will fall prey to some very angry people in a moment
check out the facts for yourself.

....waiting for the 'delete'.....

I'll save KINAV8R the trouble. Here is a copy of the post on the KA Standard Contract thread (for KA, read 'CX'), although comically they pay more than twice the amount of housing allowance than CX does. Copied below......

Having been on the standard contract for a couple of years now, I have realised that I made a terrible mistake...and now i regret it....
I was lured at the prospect of working for a legacy airline, one that provided a full package that would enable myself and my family to live comfortably in a vibrant city like hong kong. I, like many others in my position, looked at the remuneration package KA had to offer and jumped at the opportunity. I was ignorant. I researched the price of living in HK and thought to myself, although it wasn't extravagant, we could manage in the hope that my salary would increase year upon year and the company would reward us with pay rises in time.
Boy was I wrong. No pay increase in the past 2 years while the price of living here has gone up 25% in the time i have been here. Rents are ridiculous...and the price of education has gone through the roof. Forget trying to send your child to a decent school as the debentures to get into anything comparable to the standard we are used to in Europe will not be covered by the company. ESF school rates have also sky rocketed. Independent schools obviously charge more.

The company gives us a special allowance of HK$21,300 for FO's and HK$32,000 for skippers. They do not call it a housing allowance (although everyone uses it to pay rent) because they know that it does not cover rental costs in HK, unless of course you live in a 500 sq ft apartment in DB or Tung Chung. The special allowance does not cover rentals for a family sized apartment.

The medical insurance is also sub standard and we have been trying to push for improvement for many years now with meagre results.

The rosters are about the most unstable I've ever seen of any company. There is absolutely no stability in rostering and you will switch from early shifts to late shifts within the same week. You cannot plan anything on a day that you have to work. They OWN you on that day, regardless if you are doing earlies or lates.

The seniority system is a farce. Bidding for flights or vacation is not transparent and is only based on your first attempt. A second attempt at a bid will leave you in the same bidding pool as everyone else so where is seniority considered if you fail to gain any leave or flight pattern on the 1st attempt?


Whilst my overall wages are higher than my previous job, I am saving much less because of the high living costs in Hong Kong. Sure, I came here with EYES WIDE OPEN...but no amount of research can prepare you until you actually come here and see how expenses mount.

If you are single and plan on staying that way, the standard COS will be adequate and you'll live a humble life renting a small apartment...maybe a girlfriend or two....but if she gets pregnant and you decide to raise a family...don't expect to live the lifestyle that you are used to back home.....my guess is you'll take the free rating and go back home...something I am in the process of doing at the moment.

Trafalgar,

you sound more bitter by the day.

If you honestly think that 150 k income would result in living on 500 sqft you are either a lyer or an imbecile. Your pick.

PS I say again: I would NOT accept the contract. But, dear Trafalgar, why do you hate the truth so much? Why don't you trust in the judgement of a colleague who is simply asking a simple question?

Again, who's 'truth'? I have my opinion, you have yours (unless you go and delete it because it was imbecilic and accusatory). And btw, i'm not bitter, just not willing to let the management of CX have a free ride on the backs of their hard working staff. I don't need to be an apologist for an incompetent management who have treated their staff abominably. Anyone who has been here for long enough has seen the cynical, contemptuous and intimidatory way that our management has gone about hollowing out this airline, and devaluing our profession. If you want to try and excuse that, again, you are entitled to your opinion. I am quite satisfied with pointing out the decrepitude of our management and the damage they have done to everyone who has committed their careers to this company. Others, apparently like yourself, seem to have a perverse need to try and rationalise their behaviour.