HKPA
 

No HKPA raise without productivity increase.

Will the rest of us have to pay for an increase of allowance for a select few?

What about admitting that goodwill and extra training capacity are good enough as a productivity increase?

Hardly a select few. The de facto majority now.

CX saved plenty with the unilateral introduction of HKPA to replace housing, of which they passed none back to the pilot body.
So until the day HKPA surpasses housing they'll still be saving money.

When that day arrives, then maybe we should consider making some concessions or productivity gains.

Typical Swire gameplay. Steal something from their staff then sell half of it back and call it fair. Ala any concessions they may give on 3 crew long haul.

Well if that's the case, then the vote will be No. Who in their right mind wants to work more for more money? Surely they both cancel each other out.

Unless you are one of these maniacs who wants to work themselves into an early grave aka Pilots- turned- Sim Instructors .

A big 'thank you' to all the training captains, who have helped to dilute our contract. You must feel very proud about having 'given something back'.

As usual, CX management are trying it on. Even if they increased HKPA by 30%, it would barely compensate for the inflation that has occurred since it was introduced, so even a 30% change would only bring it back to where it was to begin with in value. Now they suggest that to bring you back to somewhere even, you have to work more !! What a joke. Chaps/ladies, throw it back in their faces. I think they need to be shown what a complete withdrawal of goodwill looks like. Frankly, I think AT's Friday Flyer comment was an insult to every pilot in this airline who are now obviously being taken for fools. When other airlines are giving their pilots 30% + pay raises, CX is still diddling around with a long overdue change to HKPA. This management is contemptuous.

Re Dart; nice to see AOAE Captains taking training upgrades. Technically they're not bound by the TB. Still, it's nice to see them supporting the cause, all in the spirit of solidarity. The same solidarity that will see them wanting max support over the Man base closure. Sadly, you reap what you sow.

DL (Delta) just announced a USD952 pretax profit for the final quarter of 2016, as well as predicted pretax profit for 2016 of USD6.6 BILLION.

And Delta just gave their pilots another 28% raise. Every day I get a little closer.....

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Yes, thats a no for me too.
Now they want me to work harder to pay for the mistake others made in signing up with inferior conditions.
No thank you.

Did you think, for a moment, that they actually think we'll go for this idiocy?

They KNOW

The Zero to Hero types are trapped

They KNOW

We'll never trade productivity for HKPA increases

They KNOW

We'll never strike

They KNOW

That SJS will continue to attract low time/no time applicants

They KNOW

That delay, delay, delay is a tactic that WORKS and SAVES MONEY

They KNOW

They screwed up with fuel hedging

They KNOW

That while they have their heads in the trough, the staff will pay for it

They KNOW

That pilots are perceived as being overpaid and underworked

and

They KNOW

That CX owns the press

Stop being surprised. They're not surprised by anything (except the fuel price) and even that's debatable...

Don't forget the 4 AOAC Captains....

Maybe the STCs and TCs will write another letter.

I am surprised the AOAHK are even talking to the company. Seriously, after the failed TA. The company know what the AOA want. They know the shortcomings of the TA and the RP's and the HKPA. The line is firmly in the sand. They either meet the line or the stale mate continues simple. Oh and at the same time ramp up the court cases against the company on every stinking issue!

Or just strike, makes things alot less messy for us

Or encourage Check and Trainers to resign from training.

Boy, the car dealer really must see a few of the folks at CX coming.

"You know, they put that true coat on at the factory"

"Without that true coat you get oxidation"

Jack up the price and then make a 'deal' with an inflated sticker. Oldest trick in the book. It's all pure profit.

Kind of like taking something away then trying to sell it back to you. Or asking for productivity gains after taking something away you used to have.

Good luck !

Globocnik, I am very certain that NO MAN based Captain has taken a training position and if a LHR based Captain has, well they are not supporting the MAN based guys anyway. And for that matter, either is HKAOA. It will be up to the affected crews to fight for themselves, together. So do not try and split the MAN crews with false accusations.....by the way, you won't divide them, as proven 3 years ago....

' The AOAE can be assured of our commitment to assisting them and working together in the defence of their members' rights.'

How much more do you want from another Union?

Shaggers. At no stage did I state that Man captains' were taking upgrades. In fact I didn't specify which other than AOAE. Think Hounslow rather than Cheshire and you'll be in a better ballpark. As for "splitting" Man crews. Wtf ? I made no such attempt. Merely stated a fact that can be checked on the master roster if you can be arsed.

As so well written by Oasis.

The same group who undercut the market & took what others turned down to get the job want to be considered as equals? The same AOA who sat back & did NOTHING because they deemed C-Scale not affecting their T&C's now see what was predicted from day 1: that when C Scale becomes the majority they'll put immense pressure on those T&C's to lower yours to improve theirs?

It's insulting if not so laughable at how the AOA acts. The C-Scale Gen-Y / Melenial attitude however was always easier to read than a pop up kindergarten book. And the AOA? History repeating itself makes for simple predictability & an astonishing lack of accountability.

Let's put that "raise" in historical context:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/bu...-cut.html?_r=0

It's better than what the CX pilots are getting. I see guys leave CX for DL. Not the other way around.

Exactly. Some members of the AOA raised the topic of a Training Ban on C-Scale joiners. This was never actioned let alone advanced for serious discussion by the AOA.

In any culture be it in a professional, personal or a social environment there is typically a senior person or body of more experienced & mature people acknowledged to use their position to save individuals from themselves. Through shear ignorance or arrogance or immaturity or combination of all 3 these idiots signed for C-Scale. The AOA should have slapped the red apple from the witches damn hand. And yet their rhetoric in this HKPA states how these imbecilic C-Scalers have to live like uni students in cramped shared accommodation not befitting their station at CX? What cr@p. It's exactly befitting their station for what they asked to receive, defended receiving & boasted about being in this job they felt they were entitled to. They're not entitled to anything more than they asked / begged & signed for via a legally binding contract.

Listen to you guys. Honestly you are attacking the people at the company who I have seen only have respect for your conditions. Pull your heads out of the sand. Times have changed. They have just an interest in maintaining their conditions as you do. Is it so wrong to want to improve your position.

Sounds like this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxBtGuu9BVE

Dan Buster, I'm guessing with that rightous tone you are on A-scale then?

TurningFinal: I've met many C-scale guys. Many I've spoken with accept the package they signed for and more so regret the decision. The occasional one wants to argue that "the times have changed" as an excuse, but in the next breath b!tch about the cost of living, their shared apartment, it's size and how they'll save for the future. "The times have changed" is a pathetic excuse to say cheap is good and the way of the future. But what we're talking about is the undeniable pressure C-Scale has placed on the rest of the pilot body's T&C's. As I've written before, it's prima nota pure & simple. Not "sign or be fired" tactics as they once used as they're more cunning than that now.

Did Mr "McN...." who posted on the iCadet Facebook page seeking nomination to the GC by promising to dissolve B-Scale as soon as possible to better his/their own package respect the pilot body? What of the many who supported him? If not for the exposure on the AOA Forum he may have gotten a seat on the GC. Was this just a fleeting ideal or a genuine aim by the C-Scale community in general? Not what they tell you on the flightdeck but what they say amongst each other. This genius exposed himself and a rotten core.

Fox: I understand your point but it's not the same. B-Scale did not represent a new generation of pilots where ZERO flight time was good enough, an ignorant appreciation of a professional pilot's worth and an arrogant opinion that they'll be part of the "new generation of CX pilot". B-Scale kept the standards high: little to no change from A-Scale. B-Scale was part & parcel of the Sign or be Fired tactic. B-Scale allowed a pilot to still live comfortably and work towards a secure long term financial future. B-Scale allowed a pilot to support a growing family on a single income. C-Scale represents absolutely none of this. B-Scale maintained high standards of recruitment as the CX interview was revered as amongst the toughest in the world to pass. C-Scale bought questions like "Tell me what your parents think about you becoming a pilot" (as quoted from the cadet applicant in this web site). I can't recall a B-Scale SO who came with a few thousand hours of time, most likely >1000 hrs PIC, freezing during a TCAS RA. Pay bananas & you'll get monkeys. Just read though the Cx Wannabe forum on this site. It's insulting to any professional pilot to think that this is the standard CX seeks & attracts.

JN14: You're welcome to your opinion about those who oppose the degradation of pilot T&C's. I don't know whether you and TurningFinal are iCadets. I find it scary that you mock those who fight against the lowering of standards, as well as T&C's. But like I said, you're welcome to your opinion. I hope you look back at this attitude when the axe comes down further by the next wannabe who'll do it for less, when CX demand you start paying for your type ratings, you have to pay for your meals on board, D-Scale gets ushered in, etc, etc. I hope you can raise your sarcastic personality and laugh it off then as well. But it'll never happen to you, right?

Presumably right before asking: "Would they let you live with them until you're 35?"

....and then include the wife and kids under that roof :hmm:

One question ChinaBeach - do you think you would've been good enough to qualify to join on A-scale back in the day?

And you wonder why our union is so weak? Support our members and pilots as a whole, yes the contract changes suck but they are a product of the green monster. If you want to fix things or turn this place around the answer is unity. Remember the brotherhood of a union scope is not just for current members but also for future members.

Quite.

Those that are thinking of voting no to the current motion, need to stop and think about what will happen in the short & medium term if this motion doesn't pass.

That isn't a threatening statement, but rightly or wrongly the motion is out there, and not a single good thing can come if it's failing. But, plenty of bad can.

If you sell your soul to CX just make sure the price is right.
If you look at the goings on at Wed. meeting of our 360 best and brightest I think you will come to the conclusion that nothing good will come of this place going forward.
Worst case scenario is that it won't exist in 5 years time.
So my humble advice is treat it as a stepping stone gig, tough it out until you've got some real experience to find something better. Like the bad old days before cadetships etc.
Trying to get HKPA up to anywhere near he levels to live a reasonable life in HK is simply not going to happen.

Fox:- I can't answer that to be fair. But I can tell you I studied like a man possessed & had to bring in the thousands of hours flight time experience to stand a chance to be able to answer questions that went well above what the current requirements are. Same with the flight assessment and just like the rest of the B-Scale pilot's did.

My point as mentioned above & opinion remains the same.

ChinaBeached,

So after 'turning down the job', you practiced what you preached, you took the mature and intelligent path and spent a large portion of your spare time over the next seven years pulling yourself on an anonymous forum. The same ten guys on here spinning the same broken record is the reason most CX pilots don't even bother reading this part of the site. Whoever is responsible for moderating it, especially before the last TA should be ashamed.

I completely agree, the quality of the local cadets leaves a lot to be desired but there are also guys joining with previous experience. Cadet programmes have been around for over 50 years at mainline carriers and they won't be disappearing soon.

C scalers are quickly becoming or already are the majority. If we wanted to stop CoS99, 08 etc. it should have been nipped in the bud when it happened.

For those that actually work here, remember who the real enemy is. 25 year housing, HKPA and RP's will continue to be bundled. Time for all the unions to come back together and dig their heels in collectively.

Or you can continue to waste your life on here and spin your wheels...

Exactly pedalz, its time we all come together as a collective. The C scalers I have spoken to want to maintain expat benefits but I have gathered from a few that they wish to be treated with respect from other crew. Calling C scalers brushwingers, iCadets and useless creates a divide amongst the pilot body. If you don't respect them how can you expect those same people to respect you and your conditions. C-scale is here to stay but now is the time to prevent further degradation of conditions for all pilot groups, but it will only be achieved through unity. So the next time you fly with a new SO and wish to complain on here about his/her experience how about instead you take them under your wing and teach them a few things. They will respect you for it and it may just be your saving grace.
Our SOs are keen so treat them with the respect they deserve and they will do the same for you

And again, Pedalz: you're welcome to your opinion. So it's amusing that you see yourself above "pulling yourself" because your opinion about so many topics is deemed worthy yet others' not - just going by your illustrious holier than thou opinions / past posts on this site.

Yes, I walked away. I did what you wish others would & what you most likely "pull yourself" over a beer at the pub when discussing T&C's with your buddies. "I'm going to...." but you never do. You say "Thank you" & lube up for the next "you're welcome".

Some stand up for themselves & defend against utter bull$hit. Others find excuses to accept & justify it. Respect? You want myself & others in the wider airline world (not just CX) to respect those who contribute to the detriment of the industry? Nah mate. I don't have the ignorant audacity to ask for a sh!t sandwich, beg to eat it, defend the right to eat, sign a contract to do so & then demand a lobster roll.

Cadetships have been around for a very long time. The CX cadetship, as defined by your hero RH, quoted it as it's sole purpose to provide an avenue for HK locals into aviation (CX). It was then turned into a method to pay less for pilots when they opened it up to the global market. So stop saying that "cadetships have been around for 50 years" to defend the indefensible. To compare CX's money grab cadetship scheme as equivalent to anything remotely reputable is ridiculous. Even you can't deny that.

A united AOA? Impossible. You're all too factioned & greedy to think of anyone but yourselves. History is the greatest indicator here. Warham wrote about it & nothing has changed. So forgive me for not joining you for a self defiling session so you can slap each other over the raping of a once great airline.

The "real enemy" as you put it is greed. Spineless greed to look after yourselves first & foremost. If you want 25 year housing go out & get it. Go on. What's stopping you?? It's a united pilot body to activly & vigorously defend what is yours that is stopping you. But you'll just sit back & say "I'm going to...." do abso-effing-lutely nothing. So stop pulling yourself about who the real enemy is when you have an intimate chat with him in the mirror every day. Do what I did. Go on. Walk away. We both know you won't. Accusing others of "pulling themselves" by exposing the truth cuts too close & easier to name call & cower into the shadows.

TurningFinal: which C-Scaler respected my experience, my efforts, my > decade of pursuit to achieve a goal? Name 1. You want equality but have ZERO concept of the term, what it means or the humility required to do so. The numbers of C-Scale members at CX will & has turned you / them into bullies. They want a level playing field when they cr@pped on the airline, the industry & colleagues to get the seat. Respect? They don't know the meaning of the word let alone application.

".....how about instead you take them under your wing and teach them a few things. They will respect you for it and it may just be your saving grace."

So the real pilots need to find ways to earn respect from C-Scale iCadets?? You really are that obnoxious & conceipted? "Saving grace"? You have to be kidding!!? How about shutting up, stop moaning about the contract you begged for, stop telling everyone how you're going to Emirates & stop the rot about being hard done by. You're getting exactly the contract you signed.

I don't have the ignorant audacity to ask for a sh!t sandwich, beg to eat it, defend the right to eat, sign a contract to do so & then demand a lobster roll.

How about shutting up, stop moaning about the contract you begged for, stop telling everyone how you're going to Emirates & stop the rot about being hard done by. You're getting exactly the contract you signed.

Well played sir :D

"...I don't have the ignorant audacity to ask for a sh!t sandwich, beg to eat it, defend the right to eat, sign a contract to do so & then demand a lobster roll.

How about shutting up, stop moaning about the contract you begged for, stop telling everyone how you're going to Emirates & stop the rot about being hard done by. You're getting exactly the contract you signed..."

One more time.