DEFO back at CX
 

So it's official. On the A330 and B747 only.

I have seen an internal letter floating around the last day or so, looks official, I don't dare post it here but I'm sure you will be able to if you ask around

Yep. It is official. DEFO on Airbus and 747. HK based. S/O's can apply if qualified.
20 S/Os from the Airbus going for 20 sectors LFUS at KA.

Yep I have read the letter...leaked by the company. Poor S/Os are going to have to wait a bit longer for upgrades as DEFO s pile into HK

On full expat housing?

Full expat housing? Surely NOT!

This is the mother of all f### ups. Promotions delayed by the awesome training ban that, almost 2 years later, was only supposed to last a few months. Now the unsurprising and predictable result will be DEFO and some serious harm to any junior crews career progression. The icing on the cake was you got to pay for it to be enforced with your Union subs.

Joined a year ago, but actually I'm not to worried about DEFO. It is what it is, nothing I can do as I don't meet the requirements. Even with a few 1000 hours, the largest thing I had before here was a King Air. By the time commands come it'll be senority based anyway.

The fact they'll be on a far better package for their entire career, and I'll never get close to it, is what annoys me.

So now we will have SOs who will be without an upgrade for potentially 5 years and they have given up a modest pay increase now for nothing? Will the older boys in the company stand up for the SOs after many voted NO on advice they received from captains and first officers

Rwy36

Of course not!! That has never happened in the history of the CX. Problem is there are guys who will vote no regardless of what the offer is because there are absolutely zero consequences for them. It's all the junior guys who have to do the heavy lifting. From this point on I think the AOA should waive Union fees for all junior guys if CC/TB is to continue.

Keep calm and compliant on
 

This is unremarkable. Most pilots joined this airline as DEFOs. CX have done it during times of expansion. Last DEFO was probably back in 2008. This would have happened with or without the Training Ban.

As for joining on expat terms.... I doubt it. In fact, if they do, I will run down "the street" naked with a feather stuck up my a......

Liam,

I don't think that's right that most joined as DEFO, but in any case that would definitely not be happening now if it wasn't for the training ban.

2/3 of pilots are SO recruits

Regardless of AOA actions, the company was ALWAYS going to go down the DEFO route eventually. The simple demographic necessity of it was screaming out to the company for the past several years. They are just using this as the time to announce it in hopes that we will turn on ourselves in the process.

Instead of blaming the AOA, realise that this is yet another example of the company's lack of sincerity. They would rather punch you in the nose yet again than find an equitable and fair settlement. They can't help themselves.

The DEFO move will NOT help them in the long run. It is not cost effective and on top of that, the cost in pilot resentment and guerilla action will render the working of the operation even less viable. Stay strong and united, THAT is what scares the company the most. It is also instructive to many of you as to why there are better employers and careers out there.

They are following down their predictable road of 'face saving', a road that will lead them nowhere.

And yet, Trafalgar, YOU will train them.

Well done.

Best thing that could happen to us is DEFO on expat terms.

I hope it will definitely put an end to 250h HKPA recruits.

If anything, the hkaoa should put a vote for a recruitment ban until new hires get full expat conditions.
Best thing that could happen to our LEP as well.

What makes you think they would offer SOs/FOs who would not have been eligible for direct entry full expat?

Fair question. But isn't that what the SO position is for?

Not asking for FO upgrades and pay ahead of those more qualified, but in 3-5 years when all the recent new hires are FOs how are they any different, especially given most have been expat hires?

SOs on expat terms used to be the norm too.

There's always been 3 entry levels to CX. You're in contract compliance. I'd suggest reading it.
1. DEFO - xpat conditions
2. DESO - xpat conditions
3. Cadet SO - local conditions

Any HKG based DEFO has to be given xpat conditons. Anyone who knows cx knows there won't be DEFO's. There will be cadet SO's who are offered "rapid promotions". Just like the rapid promotion captains 10 years ago. (and watch that get repeated at both CX and KA as failure rates of partially trained pilots become farcial)

BTW, we all signed contracts allowing for DEFO's and for all but 6 years of CX's 70 year history they have done so. Most pilots at Cx have enjoyed the experience of having pilots join over the top of them. At least now you still keep your seniority number.
Anyone who voted NO to the TA thinking the company responsible for the 49ers was going to fight by the Queensberry Rules shouldn't be allowed in a control seat.

The only change since 2008 is they've shoehorned every new hire into the last category as a cadet, regardless of prior experience. There are even military fast jet guys with combat tours under their belt labeled 'cadets'.

So there only option then will be to offer C scale DEFO, Im sure that will deter plenty of applicants with the necessary experience considering they are most likely already employed at various airlines

Correct. Although, legacy carriers aside, it's still far preferable to most positions in the EU.

There are several SOs that qualify and or have usa green cards.... Might be interesting.

Is it legal to offer expat terms now ?

20 years ago AOA members were training ASL DEC's and DEFO's. I'm guessing nothing will change.

Potential applicants should have a good look around before looking at CX unless they are after the free type rating - joining now as a DEFO the time to command at CX would be longer than most carriers in emerging markets (CX only got about 40% captains).

Why would you? KA down the road offers commands in less than two years and then there are the ME3.

CX will only attract pilots who can't get into any of the others - either because they got rejected or they don't meet their type/hour requirements (ie. biz jet pilots, single engine fast jet and heavy turbo prop).

Defo
 

The training ban continues. I for one am resigning from training. As to all you other TCs you should do the same.
Gentlemen time to stand up and make a statement.

Xwindldg, I joined Cx 19 yrs ago (direct entry FO) so have been now just on 1year without the housing allowance as I was not rolled over. In the latest vote I indicated NO so as to try and get the HKPA up. Please tell me how you are doing the "heavy lifting" when as a result of the TA not going thru I am short some 40k/month for supporting an increase to your terms of employment?
Frankly I am tired of your bleating. New recruits knew the package yet signed anyway and now our total renumeration is being held hostage as a result of your actions. The AOA is fighting for a better deal for ALL and your latest retort is for all subs to be wavered for S/O's. You must be so impressed with yourself when you look in the mirror. Moronic.

What Rice Power said.:ok::ok:

Yup, what Rice Power said.

Agree with Rice Power

if you guys think anna wasnt going to do this regardless really have no idea how mngmt at cx work.

the latest part a amendment would have been in cad for approval well before the vote was finished. they are playing you guys like a toy

So Xwind, management treat you with contempt & your colleagues think you're a moronic jerk. This is the exact response you seem to attract every time you open your ignorant, selfish, prepubescent & supremely arrogant sandwich hole. Continue as planned fella.

As written earlier, with the existing T&C's CX will struggle to attract few if any [quality] DEFO's who see CX as a 1st tier employer. Those with the runs on the board know they deserve better. CX will be / is at the very best a distant target for any experienced FO seeking career satisfaction when considering industrial peace of mind, profession integrity & long term financial security. Those 3 items simply do not exist for any new joiner at CX.

The longest time to Cmd in the ME is approx. max 7 years with 2.5 years or less frequently happening, depending on expansion plans at the time, etc. And the remuneration packages offers full housing (company provided, rent-to-buy or buy & the allowance pays the mortgage easily), education allowance, health insurance & provident fund. Yearly bonuses in recent times have been as much as 13 weeks as well as 15%+ pay increases.

Then there's the contract world both in Asia & Europe where FO's earn a tax free income from $10k - $16k USD per month on commuting contracts or live in their home country. Or legacy carriers in the US & the UK who are aggressively hiring (United, BA, etc, etc....).

China, you stole my rant!

I'll add that in the current industrial climate, plus poor pass travel, an outdated command assessment process, a high command failure rate, poor command training and hostile management, you'd be nuts to join this place EVER AGAIN.

Does anyone know how many very experienced FOs, previos large jet captains, 13 years+ seniority, are assessed as unsuitable??? They use that system against their own best and most experienced crews, it's insane really. Yet they talk about safety and the need for experience. They talk out of both sides of their mouths and it sickens me honestly.

This place is so dysfuntional now that anyone that joins, remember slashers arms, will, if they have'nt already, see what a poor career choice this place is.

Those that read this that are on the outside, please know what you'll be getting yourselves into. Don't believe anything they try to sell you, they lie all the time. You WILL be harassed, threatened and beat over the head here. And wait until you see what training is like here and expose your career to our third floor. You have no idea who these people are, what they've done in the past and what they continue to do. They promoted a guy to Chief Pilot training who slept with another pilots wife and then threatended that pilot with termination if he did anything about it.

I have been succesful in talking pilots out of ever coming here.

Oh, and good luck ever getting on a flight to/fr home with our new priority system. Oh and wait to you experience rostering. It is something to behold, our crew control. You will get a roster and you will get some requests but you may never fly them. Go ahead and try to call in sick or unfit. Just go have a read of my thread "Rostering after the TA".

This place is also thee unhealthiest choice one can make.

SOs will be the hardest hit out of this. Loss of backpay, loss of HKPA increase, Delayed upgrade times and therefore lost income from JFO pay. With many struggling to provide for families this must be looked at properly

What's your point??

Everyone warned you about CX management's treatment of their pilots & contracts. Books have been written - literally. Everyone told you about the salary & cost of living. YOU failed to listen. YOU knew better. Now YOU have to live with the decisions YOU made.

YOU having to receive EXACTLY what you begged for is a far cry from what the real pilots have to bear with due your ignorance & severe / dangerous lack of experience both inside & outside of the cockpit.

Fellow Pilots: Please don't give CX management the satisfaction of seeing us turn against ourselves. There was a MAJORITY vote cast to reject the TA. This majority consists of pilots from all levels of the seniority list. It was rejected because it was INADEQUATE. If the company choose to show their true, narcissistic colors, then accept that they are at least doing you the favour of allowing you to make a career choice based on truth, and not fantasy. There would be NO career here under the TA. That is why the company was desperate to get it through. Now, instead of taking the high road and reengaging in negotiations to fix the areas that were not acceptable, they choose to dump on the very pilot group who probably mostly voted yes, and who are the most in need of improvements. Just take a moment to reflect on what that says about the 'sincerity' and morals of our management. We MUST stick together and press home with our unity and resolve. They ARE on their back foot, and this is their immature, juvenile and venal response. Don't let them split us now, we have too much invested in the past 19 months to give up now. THEY are the desperate ones, not us. Regardless, keep your integrity, honour and ethics intact. There ARE other airlines in the world, and the fact is that most of us would be better off being at them (time to command/housing/pay/bonus's at the M3 as example). Let this play out, but don't assist the enemy.

Spoke yesterday to a friend who is very senior in BA. They didn't take a single CX pilot in the latest recruitment trawl in HKG (as far as he knew).

Chinabeached,

They will be FLOODED with applications from experienced guys if/when DEFO is offered.