A big thank you for posting the information guys. Different viewpoints balance it all out. It may be helpful if you could keep the currency constant as you guys are mixing HKD and USD. No problem for a pylet I suppose. I flew an aircraft that burned in pounds per hour, load sheet in kilograms and the refueller only wanted to know litres to load, what could go wrong?

So You are saying salary around USD$14K per month (USD$168K pa) (AUD$220,000) plus per diem and bonus?

Accommodation FROM what HKD14,000 per month? USD$22K pa?

So ball park USD$ 168k minus 15% income tax leaves USD$ 142k then say minus USD$ 30k for housing leaves USD$ 112k (AUD$ 147k).

Is that about it?

probably being a bit generous with USD14K/month. maybe around 12.5/month. More than likely you will be spending more than HKD14,000 on rent if you have a family

Salary + 84 hours is 90k. Plus 14K HKPA. 13.5k. Plus any qualification pay. So, just shy of 14k.

RW36 is right. HK$14k isn't going to get you somewhere where you can have a family. It'll get you a one bed 600sq ft place. 20-24 will get you a decent 2 bed in DB. So as you said, about US$30k a year.

Allowances will vary - couple of hundred US to 900.

13th month is another 90k (salary + 84hrs). Not guaranteed, but paid each of the Decembers I've been here.

Bonus is pretty much a thing of the past.

For clarity - I stated the housing figure in HKD, the rest were in USD.

Feel free to PM me any time if you wish.

Thanks for the feedback.

I guess by "bonus" I meant the 13th month. Whatever you call it, an additional sum that is not guaranteed per annum but sweetens the deal.

yep definitely sweetens the deal but probably won't be paid the next few years with huge hedging losses

Don't forget TAX. The first claim will be for 2 years worth!

To clarify in advance, I'm a B-scaler, so I've been on the expat housing scheme since joining as an SO.

Let me assure you that even with the full expat package, raising children in HK is NOT cheap, and it has become more expensive every year - application fees and debentures have gone up a lot over the years since my kids started school, and the government has now started winding back the subvention for ESF. And let's not even start with the waiting lists.

Want to get your child into an international school? As soon as you have a birth certificate, you need to apply, and that means forking out for a big application fee (NON REFUNDABLE). Maybe someone who's recently been through this can elaborate on exact amounts. As the school enrolment criteria is year of birth, then good luck if your kid happens to be born in December.

Then, if you're lucky enough to get a place, they start at 3 or 4 years old (depending upon the school and it system) and you're paying big $. Once again someone more current can elaborate, but a non-pilot friend of mine has his 5 y.o. daughter in grade 1, and I think he's paying in the order of HK$8,000 per month. For those that work in US$, that's a touch over US$1000/month.

Cathay pay some, but not all of the monthly fees, but don't pay for any debenture if needed, or application fee, or extra curricular activities like excursions, etc etc etc

In some cases, the application fee is in the order of a month's tuition fee, although some schools offset part of it against the first month of tuition.

I'll let you absorb that, before posting about the cost of after-school activities.

So, to summarise, raising kids in HK is expensive, but the big crunch is being able to afford a place to live with kids where the wife won't get cabin fever from living in a shoe-box.

I'm a glass half full kinda guy who enjoys what he does, has friends I enjoy the company of here, and makes the best of things. There are a lot of good things in life and I try to keep things in perspective. What we get to do is really a blessing which many don't get to experience in life. The shiny jets are well maintained, people take good care of you on the road, it is fun to see your friends, go fly and enjoy Asia and there are a lot of pretty cool things about this job. The flying is pretty much what large jet airline flying is anywhere else. I've found the trainers and folks I work with to be great people (like everything else there are d!cks here and there but for the most part the fellers and ladies are fine individuals of great quality and nice to be around).

Having said that my opinion is if at this point you are even thinking of coming to HK without full housing (other than maybe to sow a few wild oats throughout asia or as a very temporary stepping stone) and have any other options whatsoever in a 'normal' country you are nuts. Not just a little nuts but genuine grade-A Katie-bar-the-door voices in the head off the deep end nuts. Especially after hearing from folks who work here.

Things were pretty good for awhile but over the past few years IMHO we have fallen off a cliff. The solution to a 'temporary' manning problem has been to throw normal rostering out of the window and place all schedules on a type of continuous reserve. This grossly exacerbates an already significant manning problem by creating self-generated manning shortages; schedules collapse, controllers work harder to try to plug holes which get increasingly more difficult to plug (with no one available to do the plugging), wild swings into overtime and then sitting occur, time deployed goes up (which is a bad thing), body clocks and circadian rhythm become nonexistent and over time health issues invariably crop up (mostly due to transiting multiple time zones and continuous multiple body clock swaps--OK for a few months but over the span of years really screw up the body in a whole bunch of ways). Throw in the lack of labor law backstop toward abuse and there goes your health. Or job. Or both--take your pick.

When sickness rates spike due to legitimate issues (which they have) this is a real problem. It's the safety valve going off. But it seems we've become reliant on using the safety valve as the normal pressure cutoff switch on the compressor--maybe trying to put a brick or two on top of it from time to time because it's annoying when it pops. Might be funny to watch some redneck do this on You Tube (from a distance at least) but it's obviously not the right way to run a commercial operation.

And there's no real indication that things will get better anytime soon in HK. All the while you lose seniority somewheres else in a seniority based business. Better to scrape for awhile.

No furloughs if things go south and the world faces the zombie apocalypse ? Maybe. That was the 'old' CX. All one knows about the new paradigm of working conditions is it isn't as good as it was--and penny wise while being pound foolish seems to rule the day. One can hope the labour relationship gets better in HK but it is just that--blind hope with no real indication of fact to back it up.

IMHO I guess I'd describe the operation as schizophrenic. Some things are simply wonderful and some things bad with no real rhyme or reason. Some days the overseers do some great things; other days some bad things. Again with no real (at least to me) coherent pattern or goal.

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear (or are wishing to hear) but I think it accurate. Words haven't been backed up by actions and so far wishing hasn't made it so in HK. If you want to 'give it a go' and have an exit strategy more power to you.

Oh, and that isn't even counting the economic stuff.

Good post Shep69.

Hi, probably been asked before but I'm being lazy in bed this morning...
Has anyone decided to live on a boat and how does it stack up money wise?

Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avaSdC0QOUM

That's it. That's what it's like living on a boat in HKG!!!

box

Good find boxjoxkey. The only problem is that some people are naive enough to believe it's true.

Shep. Congrats on a great post. Sums it up nicely. As for the boat question, have a good friend who lives on a boat in DB. $ for sq ft, no better option in HK. He loves it and equates the experience to being on holiday. I've visited on many an occasion, and would concur that it's a nice diversion from the norm in HK. Sadly, as with nearly everything else to do with CX and HK, the company has made it impossible to purchase and live on a boat at the moment. The best option for families is of course the one thing CX has put a stop to. Typical and petty. Hopefully common sense will return to the issue and once again boats will be a viable living proposition for the newer employees who have no hope of purchasing an apartment suitable to supporting a family.

Any news if/when they've started contacting people for DEFO interviews? I noticed the application has a selection for sim instructor as well. Whats the story there?

The story is, they don't have quite enough of the very wealthy old men, A-scale management pilots who have reached the pinnacle of their flying careers but who don't have a 'life' after Cathay Pacific, who want to get their jollies by sitting in a lurching box at all hours of the night to train the very cheap pilots who will eventually replace them.

Captain Dart

If they are in the simulator they have already been replaced!:rolleyes: Bu tlets not stop a good whine!

I think he may have meant that once these guys get to 90 the cheaper replacements they have been training for the past 25 years will undercut them for the sim retirement gig.

If you want to live on a boat because you enjoy living on the water and the slightly left-of-center lifestyle, sure, it's fun.

If you want to live on a boat because you think you've found a clever way around paying high rents in HK so you can feel better about accepting that contract with inadequate housing... forget about it. They're no cheaper than renting and a lot more involved.

Boats are wonderful things to play with if you have money...but as a primary place of residence in HK...I would not recommend them. Only a matter of time before there is a serious cull, as many old timers can attest.

http://www.wind.arch.t-kougei.ac.jp/.../hongkong2.pdf

Hi and thanks for the responses. Mr mole, how have the company put a stop to boat life?
The reason I ask was that I'm looking to buy a Hanse and was wondering if I can combine that with cx.
There are some unhappy people here I see but it ain't a bed of roses elsewhere. I'm on a defunct type and there are limited options for ntr peeps.

Regards

You no longer get a housing allowance that would cover it. Your allowance would be almost gone just for the mooring.

As a result of recent incidents in HKG waters the local MARDEP is under the microscope. As a result they have taken a revised stance ( to be strictly correct it was always the stance just never enforced before ) that long term liveaboards are illegal. This despite the fact that people have lived on them, and bought and sold them happily for years.
As a result CX will not pay the assistance for a new boat mortgage. They are honouring existing agreements. This has the knock on effect of making boats difficult to sell.
Lobbying of our dysfunctional government is under way so this may change. Don't hold one's breath however.

Living on a boat in hKG


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkWQvzrv6gI

I think the questions are coming from those weighing up options if employed as a DEFO. The above quote is misleading. CX will not pay for any mortgage, boat, house or otherwise as you no longer get a housing allowance to be spent solely on somewhere to live. You will get an extra HK$14K a month on top of your salary and you can spend it on anything you want. If you are crazy enough to think that is enough to live on a boat in Hong Kong, you are able to use it for that purpose, CX have no say in what you spend it on.

Yes misleading ( not deliberately so ) if viewed from the specific viewpoint of a DEFO joining now. Factually correct for the majority of current boat owners. And if and when an improved HKPA gets voted through then increasingly more attractive to boat owners ( and SEA commuters). Especially as you become more senior and can do with the money as you see fit. In either event no one is lending money ( certainly not the larger sums required for floating dwellings ) these days as a result of the Govt's intransigence.

450 Sq Ft it is then.Enjoy!!

Yeah thats correct and a high defo failure rate, good luck come on over, move your family, rack up a new lease just to fail line training and end up in debt. Its the new way here, cheap and quick labor to skirt the union training ban.

No stoked, it's not that bad - it's MUCH worse

Maybe you should go back and read all the posts about not looking at pure $ amounts, and look at cost of living, then you'll get a better perspective.

EK housing is about double CX, yet real estate costs in HK are probably at least double Dubai, maybe more.

https://www.justproperty.com/en/rent...ings-11-65522/

What your allowance gets you in Dubai working for EK.

Below is what you can expect in HKG using your CX allowance.

http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/property/21526716/

The HKG property is almost 1/6th the size of the Dubai house, you are reading it correctly, 439 sq/ft!

Rather than just imagining this number in your head, measure out 30ft by 15ft. That is a tad bigger than this 2 bedroom apartment.


If you have images of living in town, amongst the nightlife, pubs and clubs. This is what you would come home to using the CX allowance.

http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/property/21683513/

15 feet by 13 feet, kitchen bedroom and bathroom all squeezed into that space.

:}:}:}:}....couldn't stop laughing. 490 sq ft versus 2500 sq ft...and you get taxed in HK on the allowance to boot. Never mind about 10 years less to command in Dubai. No brainer.

If you are a FO with say AirAsia or Cebu Pacific then it is attractive.

If you can't go to any other major in your home country, or any of the ME3, then yes, it is attractive.
Salary and safety will be better here than in AirAsia or Cebu, but will lifestyle be better than in other Asian countries?

Like other have said: you'll be trading a house for a shoebox.

And you have rocks in your head if you want to commute even from somewhere in the philippines or south east asia on a 747 or airbus roster. Min legal days off and unstable.

It's spelt Philippines.

If you are going to mention it then please have the decency to spell it correctly.

Plus I don't see many of us captains giving any sectors to new DEFOs

ACMS
Location: Oztrailia

LOL, Tim! .

People in glass houses………..

No sectors for DEFO , is it their fault ?

Latest rumour from the A50 instructors is the DEFOs are going direct onto the A50.....and as there is no 350 - 330 course, only 330 - 350, there they will stay enjoying the ULH lifestyle us senior guys are denied.....you can't make this stuff up.