Despite my misspelled handle I work for CX and I want to voice my support for swh et al. Same boarding priority is BS. It p1sses me off that Dragonair staff can bump me off my airline as well as receiving a long list of other conditions better than mine. Not only that, but they get a choice! Where's my choice? That travel fund and FOCs and the same boarding priority is ridiculous.

What, may I ask, has the AOA done about this farce? Nothing... There's a surprise.

And I get told how fair it is. :yuk: On what possible grounds could Dragonair staff justify asking for (and threatening tantrums over) receiving a higher boarding priority on (as someone else said) an airline they don't work for?

One upside: At least everyone in CX now knows that Dragonair pilots get paid more than CX pilots!

L O bloody L, I've gone though 2 bags of popcorn and a 10 pack of jack and cokes reading this dribble, thanks guys :ok:

swh - if you really are gonna continue in this vein, believing you are fighting for, or in any way acting as the voice of 'most' CX Flightcrew, please would you mind sodding off from this thread and use PMs to the other protagonists. If on the other hand you are doing it to amaze people with your prose and boost your Ego then, newsflash, you're making a prick of yourself, irrespective of the scattered truisms which I do recognise are amongst the ranting. You have the diplomacy skills of Combover Trump - IMHO.

Does the DPA really influence group policy
 

I find it less than credible that Swire/CX directors were awaiting the outcome of the DPA meeting before implementing a group wide policy the next morning.

To imagine that they were "scared" of upsetting 500 employees vs 23,000 doesn't seem their style.

Just to recap.

Having worked for Cathay for twenty years when I check in to fly rebated travel on the airline for which I work, I can be off loaded by staff from ANOTHER airline?

In what universe can anyone, including Management , say that this is fair?

kenfoggo

Group
/ɡruːp/ noun

1: A collection of individuals who have regular contact and frequent interaction, mutual influence, common feeling of camaraderie, and who work together to achieve a common set of goals (businessdictionary.com)

Note: degrees of camaraderie may vary between individuals

2: When more than 2 people engage in sexual activity, this can include straight, lesbian, and gay groups. Also, abbreviated as "GS" (urbandictionary.com)

I'm 'thinking' it's definition 1 that applies but I can't be sure, especially if you live in DB.

Yep, and it's only the Dragonair crew that could possibly try and justify this decision.......

I am not transferring to the CX scheme.

I would rather keep all the travel allowance and choose flights that are a near certainty of getting on, pay full fare for other flights.

The total sectors are reduced to 48 for all family in your travel pool. That is sectors not return trips.

I am not 100% sure of these items just yet, but reading the info it seems to be the case. I actually think the KA scheme is better than CX.

Terrain Terrain- what are you? 12? Grow up and realise what is happening, not just to CX but also to KA.

Ok so it's quite clear that the Australian Cx Pilots in particular are all against this change and I can understand why, how about some useful ideas on what is a fair compromise for all demographic groups.

Oh, so it's a compromise you want now?

A compromise was what was offered to the AOA years ago. DOJ or DOM, whichever came later. "Go shove your head up a dead bears bum" was the response, or words to that effect.

That horse has bolted. Though if this change is the requisite kick up the arse to get some cooperation between the two groups happening then I'm all for it.

By it's very nature, compromise requires some individuals to make sacrifices so that the greater group can prosper. This is something your side of the fence has had great difficulty with to date. And looking at the current levels of non-compliance with contract compliance, still do.

You haven't the facts and it's pretty grey in a lot of areas.

Out of the blue we were offered staff travel improvements including access to our own airline for ID freight and increased nominees.

And the back drop to all this is the AOA attitude, in whatever shape or form it was on the day, telling us to f%%$ off. A strategic blunder and the negligible demographic effects were made very clear to the AOA. And on reflection, considering the very high attrition of KA expatriate pilots in the contract compliance period up to and following CX's buy out of KA, some of your union leadership should be shot at dawn.

Not forgetting of course, the bellows from the B scale drinking holes from Staunton St to the DB Plaza that "It's a f#$@&%$ take-over , not a merger "- all the while KA staff were being re-positioned into the group with their DOJ at KA back to May 1985 for staff travel.

And what we have now is the "Cathay Staff Travel Scheme". Blamed by one dwindling expatriate group on another dwindling expatriate group.

And back to your original question. I was promised out of the blue, ID freight on CX and KA, and I'd positioned myself with a few rows of vines in Chianti and an organic market garden market in Ranau on the foothills of BKI to nourish the family, and was pretty upset at the broken promise and was happy to pursue the industrial option.

A couple of points if I may:
1. The AOA did not tell the DPA to $£@k off, or anything approaching such. I should know as I was on the CX Gen Committee at the time so just because some muppet told you this in the bar does not make it fact.
2. Most of my mates at KA will not be taking this crap deal because it financially disadvantages them.
3. Both KA and CX staff need to recognise that this is the first shot in a war which will adversely affect both flight crew demographics. I foresee the next "alignment" being a common seniority list as a way for the 7 th floor residents to get around the CX scope clause, and I strongly suggest you have a read of the scope clause in your COS for this very reason.
This will then allow training by KA staff of Cx crews on the A330 (how I do not know as all my KA trainer mates are flat out as it is) and eventually CX FO's will be offered KA commands to elleviate the lack of viable and experienced KA FO's to move seats. Those of you that do not recognise the push for this "upgrade" to be on local terms don't belong behind the wheel of a car let alone an aircraft.

Please digest the above and recognise we (both KA and Cx) are all under attack and how best we can prevent this shredding of our careers.

Ive been here long enough for this new staff travel change to have little if any effect on me however I still do not think it right, and for the hot headed amongst you nor do ALL of my KA mates.

I wise person would be casting an eye on the end game.

Fire Wall. Great post. You are correct in your assessment of the situation. CX management have long ago crossed the line of morality and integrity. Their main goal is to divide and weaken all groups, and on present evidence they are succeeding. I don't dislike my KA colleagues. I do dislike a management who has no other goal other than to destroy our profession and enrich their small circle of self-absorbed and self righteous brethren. We need to calmly enact a strategy that quietly and slowly strangles them. We need to unite, identify a common strategy and then engage the real enemy. Fighting amongst ourselves will surely advance the overall destruction of ALL our careers. I would point out for the benefit of the KA staff, CX management will surely take far more away from you than they are deceptively offering. Fact.

Good posts
 

Good posts fire wall and mngmt mole.

This is exactly what is going on.

Whilst we squabble, they sit around sipping cognac and laughing their butts off.

There's been on and off talk about "seconding" the local cadets to KA until they are qualified to move back as F/Os.

Kenfoggo,

Yep. Except it's worse. There are people that haven't even joined Dragonair yet that are going to bump you. Imagine in a few years time you're in SYD standing by for J class trying to get back to HK. A new KA captain, been in the company say 3 years, shows up with his wife and kids and his waitlisted PRI 11 FOC's. His kids are going to bump you out of J class, and maybe off the flight. Thanks for your 25 years of service.

This is not personal. I also have lots of Dragonair friends and understand the crap they've been through in recent years, however there is no denying this whole thing is grossly unfair to CX staff.

However, it is true that in recent years, the AOA have not been willing to enter dialogue with the DPA committee. They seemed to have been giving the impression that there was little of interest to their members going on in KA. How wrong they were. They have known about the group staff travel scheme since it was first offered.

Well, with the tone of this thread regaining some sense of civility, as a KA pilot, I would like to add that this pri 25 issue isn’t due to be introduced until Jan 2017. It’s been presented to us as a group travel scheme to replace our KA scheme. Is that not enough time for the DPA and AOA to get together and modify it into a ‘variation on a theme’ that is mutually acceptable to all? Put “that” option to the company with both pilot groups behind it and, by default, present it in a united front that can also be used to battle the bigger issues “together” that are no doubt hidden behind the corner? As a number of other KA blokes have said here, the pri 25 item has never been on my personal wish list. If the flight is full, it’s full. Plus, I have some empathy for the perspective of the CX chaps here. Besides, I value the generous JS approvals provided by my CX colleagues far more highly than pri 25.

Someone mentioned on Yammar that we should have in place a system that protects ones FOC's on there respective airline. ie CX staff get p11 on CX and KA get p12 and vis versa..
P25 for the rest of the group on either airline for normal staff travel.
Step in the right direction??

Swire types must be soaking their pants with joyjuice over threads like this. Divide and conquer squared. Now they're dividing and dividing and conquering.... *sigh*..........

Don't play into their hands people. It's our choice to treat each other as allies with a common problem, or get bogged down in sheer pettiness that benefits no one except the people who decided to coral us all into our own little playpens in the first place.

Nup.

I don't care how you slice up the pineapple it still hurts....:mad:

66305, for your first post since 2012, I have got to hand it to you. :D

Appreciate the perspective.

We have no control over a non COS item, you are 100% correct.

KA in my humble opinion has been limited by CX ownership, not just freight side being shut down, but the pax fleet lost serious expansion momentum too, the AUS expansion that was stopped immediately springs to mind. The only investment in a decade has been the Turkish airlines paint job, but you are spot on, the oncarriage both ways is significant, and supposedly will increase now that we are looking less KA and more CX according to Ivan. Lets see how that works out. "Change is in the air" or so he says.

But a genuine thanks for your perspective and balanced view.

Cathay Pacific GROUP
 

This whole staff travel 'merge' simply fails the common sense test. No management speak will change that.

We are airlines in the Cathay Pacific group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the Swire Group is a business construct.

This is a divisive act which augers badly for more nasty divisive acts to follow.

Otherwise why do it?

{Virgin Blue/V Australia/Pacific Blue}[Qantas/Jetstar/Easterns/Sunstate/etc] are airlines in the {Virgin Australia}[Qantas] group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the {Virgin}[Qantas] Group is a business construct.

And the same can be said for so many others. Air France/KLM, Continental/United, British Airways/Iberian, American Airlines/US Airways.

The 'us and them', 'your airline, my airline' argument just doesn't hold up.

As I already have access to both systems, I too stand to lose out, personally. However, I still think it's still the right thing to do. Your 'ugly sister' has been making a disproportionate contribution to the group bottom line for a long time now. Through a set of circumstances not of their own making, the pilots and cabin crew have been left out in the cold while every other employee (dispatchers, catering management, security, cargo, planning, line ops, the lady that pushes the tea trolley during elevensies) have been moved to CX in the exact same role with original DOJ. Aircrew are just the last piece of pie to be swallowed.

For those that rely on staff travel to get home; yes, it's a bitter pill to swallow. But the unpalatability of the medicine bears no relation to its need.

In a perfect world, we would have joined the 2 lists into a Y on date of merger and so many birds would have been killed with one stone. But, both unions had their eye off the ball and now we're where we are.

I'm intrigued by this pending atrocity!

I presume Curtain, you are referring to the fact that 27000 CX employees and their spouses and their offspring, on their FOC 11s, will be able to muscle in ahead of a 16-year captain on his own airline's aircraft trying to get home as a commuter to his own family in HKT, BKI or a myriad of other ports?

:ugh::ugh:

This is a Group Staff Travel Scheme. I'm amazed that some of you honestly think the DPA holds so much sway over the very senior managers in CX that had them quaking in their boots at the whisper of KA going into contract compliance! Whilst the DPAC are probably flattered by that thought, I think that it is as far away from reality as it is that the remaining 2500 folk left in KA will all use their FOC 11s to jump on CX flights to SYD.

Well over 70% of the Group's staff are Chinese. Ergo, it is logical that some 20000 CX staff will be welcoming the chance to get home to their home cities with a degree of certainty.

All of us, both CX and KA are left in a lose/lose situation. We all have a choice. We can chose to stay on the current schemes, such as they are, which will still affect your boarding priority regardless, or we can elect to sign to the new Group Travel Scheme, which will also have boarding priority issues and for a very small number, some 200, will cost them money too.

Finally, the immaturity of those who threaten to block KA pilots from their jumpseats because of this Group announcement, is just that. I will continue to issue jumpseats to my CX colleagues in the same way as I have always. CX pilots will always get a seat on my flight deck if asked.

That is fundamentally wrong, KA staff should have priority on their own airline.

To all dragonair
 

You are not Cathay pacific.
You are not welcome on OUR P25. DOJ.
You negotiated with CX when we(AOA) are in CC with CX- that makes you a scab. Fark off twats!

Plenty of 89ers in KA who would want to "re-educate you" for that comment root tuner. We were given this pri25 over 2 years ago now, (without asking for it). You weren't in CC then. And we never asked for it. If you are going to use the "S' word you had better get your facts straight. Instead save the S word for those of your own group that seek to damage your industrial action from within.

Can I apologise to you Dragons for Route Tuner - whatever his position, he's talking like a child who needs a spanking, and we would like to converse with you either in or out of agreement like adults. Now where were we....

You forgot already? Well we were discussing further degradation to our conditions. Regardless whether you are a regular commuter to Aussieland or a stay at home local, this is another pineapple in the backside for CX staff.

It amazes me how the KA clowns AS WELL AS the CX clowns on here try to rationalise the decision with what they think are good arguments for and against.

We are pilots and unlike our cafe latte drinking colleagues, we should look at the big picture. I'll paint it for you. A staff from a wannabe Turkish airline can bump you off from your own airline.

Rest assured this will be fought, most probably lost, but fought none the less. And it doesn't require an emergency focus night, sipping luke warm coffee to decide that. I believe a motion is currently being drafted.

What was the AOA's proposition to KA pilots? I recall it was rather expedient and involved taking all wide-body expansion and bottom of the list seniority?

What mugs KA pilots would have been to pursue this- we have pilots who joined long after the CX-KA purchase who are now Captains. Those commands should have been your members.

You've a firm grasp of the big picture betpump5 - I'd guess the training of your pilots by KA being drafted now with an AOA response around mid-year. You almost had them eh.....

KA has been a Cathay Pacific operation since January 1990, 26 years!!
 

KA has been financially controlled by Swire and Cathay Pacific and 100% managed by Cathay Pacific since January 1990.

The Cathay expansion in the 80's was because of Dragonair, 'the best thing that happened to Cathay was Dragonair', quick command.

Cathay were awarded the long haul routes Dragonair had applied for and CX had to operate them.

Cathay decided to cancel the KA MD-11 long haul orders, KA was the launch customer of that aircraft.

Cathay had to operate as Dragonair into China out of political necessity, most likely survived beyond 1997, the demise of CNAC, by offering the mainland Chinese CNAC owners a steak in Dragonair.

The whole thing has been part of Cathay, except the name for 26 years!

Maybe we should all show the Dragon some respect!

Those are the facts, whether you like it or not.

You conveniently neglected to mention it was heading down the toilet in the late 1980s until Cathay stepped in, but let's not let a few facts get in the way of a good story.

If staff travel goes strictly on DOJ then why not have KA commands do the same thing. CX F/Os waiting for command at CX should have the option to take an early command at KA. KA pilots won't mind since we're one big airline and once all the CX pilots have accepted or declined their commands at KA in strict DOJ for both airlines, KA command upgrades could continue.

Surely a happy compromise. Staff travel at DOJ for KA commands at DOJ......

As you wish, Anotherday.

But bags not being the one to tell 200+ of your Captains that they're being busted back to FO by your policy.

Good enough for the goose, good enough for the Gander

The whole thing is a big ugly stinking mess. It is designed to cause fury and disrupt our ability to band together.

Management actively seek ways in which to divide us, and cause misery in the process.

Look at all the other "no cost" solutions to problems which are extremely divisive, never resolved. Why? It is the design of the game. Keep the teams hating each other for problems which were not caused by them, but disadvantage everyone. Each side blaming the other.

This is all done on purpose to smokescreen us, to get us all in a frenzy, keep us jealous and hateful, and mostly to keep us from joining forces.

Imagine if we spent all of this energy on being cohesive and formulating a united strategy of support for each other?

Let's be clever for a change, can we please?

Indeed, if the plan is to merge the airlines in the future, it would be smart for the airlines to create a wedge between the different pilot groups, making it hard for the unions to merge.

Divide and conquer, has worked since roman times.

We should get some leadership from the unions to keep our heads cool and prepare for the inevitable merger of pilot groups.

I wasn't going to add to this but there seems to be a level of hysteria here and I think we need a reality/ fact check. Plus some clarifications.

1. The numbers of KA staff involved make up just over 10% of the total workforce. Therefore, statistically if there are 10 people listed on a flight 1 will be KA.

2. Of those 10%, 85% are local/ regional Asians. Now, I'm not saying locals don't travel widely but the statics do say that the most popular countries on staff travel are Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, and Thailand. All 4 countries are served by both airlines.

3 The remaining employees (340 of them, 1.5%) are expats. Mostly they are British/Irish/European. With Aust/NZ next and then a smattering from Nth American, Africans etc.

4 Of the 340 around 200 have a DOJ prior to 2006. Of the remainder most joined post 2010 as there was no employment 2008/9 due to the GFC.

5.Your chances of being bumped by a KA staff is a sliding scale 10% if you're a new joiner down to nothing if you are very senior ( hardly Armageddon!).

Next. Perception.

Do CX employees perceive the KA crew to be part of CX?

Probably not. There has been virtually no noticeable difference to the operation since the purchase of KA in 2006. KAs inclusion hardly caused a ripple.

Do KA employees perceive themselves part of CX?

Yes, since 2006 everything KA has done has been orchestrated by CX. KAs aircraft, routes, expansion and contraction, frequencies, cabin layout etc etc. we do all our training at Cathay City. CX even introduced some weird Airbus/ Boeing/ McDonald Douglas hybrid checklist to our all Airbus fleet to bring KA inline with CX. So, Yes, KA crew do perceive themselves to be now an integral part of CX.

Next. DOJ controversy.

I believe you have a point. However there are two problems changing it from what I can see.

The first is purely administration. You would have to apply two DOJs to each and every employee. One for the DOJ of their respective airlines and one for the 2006 purchase date. Probably doable ,but messy.

Secondly, and more importantly, a precedent has already been set by CX. All previous KA employees who came across to CX in 2006 didn't get 2006 as their DOJ but got their DOJ with KA.

Next. Benefits KA staff get

10 weeks leave per year.

Yes that's true. However it is not quite as it seems. It is quite a clever system that makes optimum use of g days and allows better planning of crew leave. The 40 days leave given is divided up into 10 blocks of 4. Leave is given in week blocks only ( Saturday to Friday or Wednesday to Tuesday). A week block will consist of g,g,l,l,l,l,g. Rostering will manipulate the roster to ensure in a month with leave in it you get the correct amount of g days. ( 8 or 9 normally).

A month with 2 weeks leave looks something like this.
6 work,2G, 4L, 2G, 4L, 2G,5 work,2G, 5 work. You still only get 8 gs in the month but it has been effectively combined with L days.

Travel Fund.

Of the 527 KA pilots approximately 200 still get a travel fund. ( local and standard contract guys don't get it. The new standard contract has ring fenced the current recipients). 3 of the 200 are A scalers who get a better deal. The remaining expat B guys get differing amounts depending on their domicile. With a wife and 2 kids Europe 120K. Aust/NZ. 90k. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe CX had a scheme up until B scale introduction in 93 when it was incorporated in the basic wage. Partially the reason CX drivers have a higher basic than KA.

Concessions by KA staff to join CX corporate scheme.

Travel fund. This will be reduced by 15 to 20 % depending on your pay scale and domicile.

Common Law Spouse. As CX doesn't recognise a CLS then the KA crew will either have to get married or nominate their CLS as a companion.

Tickets for school boarders. Currently KA provides 2 tickets a year for boarders to return to HK. CX system requires that an ID 75 be purchased.

Faster Commands at KA.

True. However I believe there should no longer be 2 year commands at KA. This is a wasted opportunity for both CX and the AOA. 5 year FOs at CX could step straight into a command on a 320 at KA, or if they deemed that below them, stay as an FO for another 10 years to get a 330 command at CX.

I understand where CX pilots are coming from however I believe some of the reactions are disproportionate to the reality.

For the love of God Giggsy. Don't let reason cloud the issue.