Hong Kong new ATM system is 'safe'
 

Has anyone also heard about the FDP failure on July 31 on the new system?
Something about both FDPs crashing!?!?

Those people working there said the crash was normal.:ugh:

OK, you have my attention! This was a 'Normal' crash?
What's a crash thats not normal?, surely that IS a crash!

You meant the Automatic Teller Machine?

What is a FDP? Flight Duty Period?:confused:

Wait a minute FlyingMF.....new system??!! :=
It is a vintage system that company bought it with 1 dollar and sold to their loyal customer at 2 dollars.

:\

Seriously, a double failure! But the system passed the RAT, albeit with multiple 'observations'. What's going on?http://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif:eek::eek:

Nothing is 'normal' about a system crash! Rules are broken, safety is compromised - what a joke

a classic example of "Normalisation of Deviance"!

Regulator, if they have, should step in.

SeeMyToe
 

The Senior Air Traffic Controller who was part of the 'Regulator', which itself is part of CAD, has been pointing out problems for some time from a Safety Management point of view. CAD replaced him. One of the controllers, who has been working on the new radar system since the beginning, voiced his concerns about the new system and controller training for it. He has been removed from the project team and back to the ATC complex for his trouble.

It is the synergy between man and machine that is involving the disconnect between the bipartisan and the conservatives that is the problem...this is right at grass route level!:ok:

Translation please?

STP

ATM
 

Let me try - controllers are used to recording their information on paper strips, the new system is all electronic involving selecting from a drop down menu, cross checking after you have picked from a bunch of similar figures and talking to the pilot at the same time, for the older controllers who did not use a computer until they are 30 plus it is a major strain on their brain power and processing ability thus affecting their ability to pack the traffic in and detect conflicting traffic in the sequencing. Some systems uses a planner to input and update data and a executive controller to talk to pilot. When you try to fly ten FMS, or even five, at the same time you will understand. There are many more problems that CAD dare not admit since the Government has been putting pressure on to place the system into operations ASAP knowing the present ATM system is way past its use by date.

When will the new FDP put in use? Is the system safe??

I am surprised that they are such afraid of safety. The regulatory setting, before I left, was very impermissible; they were already made either numb or blind. If rubber-made regulator said something this time, I would imagine something is very wrong happening. The vision of that place should be amended, safety is a slogan more than action. Sigh!

So what are left behind in the regulatory unit? Confirmed rubber?

The system is completely ok now, credit goes to the project team.

With the reports we have seen so far, ok means AllButLuck.

It is not safe because the guy, who ran away, wrote an unsafe user requirements.

Productive! One of them sends his lawsuit to blackmail us for money good enough to make this ATM system safer by 0.1 percent :}

Failures make Perfect
 

The more failures the machine promises to deliver, the less complacency their management have. India have given up this crappy machine and Dubai has already formed their new project team to buy a safer machine. :ok: Hkg is the only customer of this dangerous machine on earth.

One piece of advice to them: strengthen the system failure procedures :\

Simulator always crashes but safe to use because it is a simulator using the same software of the main system. The backup system seems safe to use because it is a different software from another company. Overall speaking, ATM system is very safe. For such a safe system, why not save it in a safe to preserve it.

Oh. False alarm. We heard that the group told its only display driver in the radar display that failed and cause whole sim to crash
lucky its not somethings too important. :-(
lucky it can't happen in the real system... oh, it can?? Oh dear.

One display driver can cause the whole simulator failure, how many other interface drivers are not tested, they are not plug and play?? :ugh: Where is the safeguard? God bless them. Same software and same hardware in both simulator and real system?

UNIFO, bad weather is good. The new system is designed for this condition because ATC would normally impose heavy flow restrictions to the neighbouring ACC. With reduced traffic volume, we would be able to manage the workload the cracky system give us.

who cares the system is safe or not, management want to commit an earliest day one so that their boss can retire with his big pension. the day one is realised on the expense of safety.

JL, send your best friend another letter and tell him no more delay.

:ok: Frontpage again!

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The whole business is really unsafe rather than the machine........except the engineers' pension. Shame of you :mad:

The simulator is not safe to use but the live system might be safe to use because we never try it.

Did Mama (Lam Cheng) say the new system is safe to use?

ATM system
 

DG is blamed as head of the tree but it is our current ADG who as chief of evaluation section decided to buy this rotten system. He still said that we can use it to satisfy his boss and his own career interest, he has no interest in helping us get over the problems, at least the ADG before him said we move in only if everyone is happy, now we move into regardless because the one who is the ultimately responsible for the rot is in charge :ugh:

Cummon APP.
I don't think much of the new system either but at least if you're going to get personal, stick to the facts.
Current ADG had zero to do with the selection of the new system.
That was wholly and solely under Project Office in AESD at the time.
You know that, so stop talking crap.


Lee.ho.ma you're a nasty piece of work. Will get back to you later. Couldn't undermine CAD from one side of the road, so you're doing it from the other?
Knock it off.


P.S. Suggest you get a better camera if you're going to send photos in the Centre to the SCMP

Lapsap, don't shift the attention, I suspect it was you bring the camera to the centre. What is your next focus? Very scary to have you sitting next to me.

I just want to make a few points about this fiasco.

This decision on the selection of this system was not that of anyone in the CAD and that includes the DGCA, the Project Team or anyone else.

The decision was made by Government. With all of the work the project Team did on the technical merit of the bidders, it only counted for 35% toward the selection process. 65% came from the cost of the bid. The company that won the bid, deliberately bid low with the idea of making their money after the successful tender by requiring more money to fix the problems which were going to occur. It also allowed them to develop their system without paying development costs. Guess what, that's exactly what happened.

One of the original bidders pulled out because there was no way they could match the successful bidder on cost.

I don't know anyone on the Project Team who would have selected the winning bid.

All of those involved on the Project Team worked extremely hard to get the sort of radar they would have liked to use themselves, however, in the end, it was not their decision. It was the Hong Kong Government's decision based on cost.

If the DGCA made any mistake, it was that of not enough resources for the task. Anyone in Project Management knows that with any project, you need a bow wave of extra people with expertise to do the job up front, including proper training and documentation as occurred with the move to Chek Lap Kok. Either he was reluctant to, or the Government would not provide those resources and instead chose to staff the Project Team from within CAD. This meant staff shortages at the coalface and we have been suffering from the result of this decision ever since.

ATM
 

Let's face the facts
1. ADG came to team briefing to tell us the system failure was normal and will be fixed, we wrote pages of comments after the training and never get addressed,
2. He then removed 2 of the most senior guys from the project and replace them with his yes man/woman, then he remove the only person from the regulator office who knows what is going on,
3. He also removed the clause which said we do not move in the weather season,
4. He was acting ADG AESD for a long while, he knows the system is rotten.
Finally now he is forcing us into the fire and this is not personal. He doesn't have to struggle with it, we do.
If we cast a vote as to wheher the controllers accept the system you can guess what will be the result?

SeeMyToe
 

Nice to see a rational post on here.
Well said.
Yes, I should have indicated that it was only the technical assessment part done by Projects.
But I assume it must have been technically compliant for it to make it to the cost part.
Where did that go wrong????

As one of the EU guys says, if the project had had a reasonable timeline from the beginning (5 years anywhere else in the World!) instead of the ridiculously short 23 months it wouldn't have been the fiasco it is.

There's a very apt picture circulating of what the project now looks like, in construction terms. Will try to find and post.

Not the one doing the rounds but similar.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PV81o99Nco4/hqdefault.jpg

Caption says "Foundations=System delivery incomplete, Walls=Imagination-based adaptation, Roof=Out-of-the-Box procedures. Decorators are already half way through painting (Training)"

The engineer who invented 23 months to complete this ATMS project is being promoted three times in five years. This is how dg create his horse stalls culture. He once said to his subordinates "do not 對號入座" but then he creates a bunch of shoe shiner, yes sir, no problem, etc. No wonder the morale in cad is such dichotomy.....either dying of brushing or dying of working too hard. dg is now paying his debt. Anyway, the more you complaint these people, the quicker they are being promoted.

Guys, avoid log in this forum account in work premises with their wifi, the watchdog in HQ can track you.

LapSap, where is dg's bathroom in that haunted house?? :E

Air travel at risk ?
 

The controllers in HK are faced with working with an ageing system, which is already in ICU status, or an inadequate new system, which is likely to be under construction forever. Yet, the HKATCA are not saying a word ! I feel sorry for them.

go go go
 

1. Staff morale is all time low.....WRONG.....you feel highly motivated when you are having an early-go.
2. sickie almost everyday.....WRONG.....not everyday, we have extra staff sometimes.
3. difficult to get leave.....WRONG.....there are lots of compassionate leave opportunities and many leaves are approved.
4. >80 ATCO IIIs waiting for courses due the "new center" project.....WRONG....they are still very well paid.
5. ATCOs on leave are constantly receiving whatsapp/ phone calls to replace sickie.....WRONG.....you have an option to ignore these messages.
6. Scandals about STM3 and SATCO training in Global ATS?.....Don't know what you are taking about.
7. The ultimate bomb - 3rd runway project.....Proof it is a bomb.

One thing is always RIGHT, we have early-go almost every watch, what a beautiful place here.

EARLY-GO
Your powers of logic are astounding.
0/7
Please see me after class.

An innovative engineer designed the ATM project to be finished in 23 months won all the prizes.........being promoted three times in a few years' time. He now successfully passes the buck to the users who make all the noises including this one. No ATM system in the world can be completed within 23 months. This cr:mad:py system would take 23 years. On behalf of all ops colleagues, thank you for your innovative idea. Looks like you need to invent more pragmatic idea so that the DDGCA post can still be reserved for you. This machine is nightmare to all of us, I hope you share our concern and do not sleep well every night.