AT. Why the pretense?
 

Dear Anna,

I usually post on the AOA forums, but considering the totalitarian nature of the present regime, I will do so here. Thank you for so quickly stripping away the facade of cooperation and understanding that you originally presented us with. At least now we can deal with you on the basis of your true character (!). No other first world airline would so gratuitously disregard the overwhelming opposition to your dismissal of the RP's. Those RP's were bought and paid for by the efforts and sacrifices of many years of professional dedication and effort. As pilots, we gave up specific things to purchase the RP's. We now expect them to be immediately returned to us. Further, you stand in complete disregard of 50 years of safety developments also bought and paid for with the lives of many of our colleagues throughout modern first world aviation experience. You will be held to account. For now, and speaking solely for myself, you can be assured that I will do all I individually can to resist and foil your misguided, self-centered and misinformed plans. The rest of my colleagues can make their own mind up. I see you for exactly who and what you are. It's not a pleasant sight.

I really hope something beyond foot stomping and yammering is done about this.

Nothing will be done
Too many vested interests on the GC including commuters and Gday workers and basing issues
A GC whom is parlayed by denial , they have no plan whatsoever
Add to that the fact that as whole the pilot body is spineless and self centred ( take the aussie pilot who says we have more to lose than the CC )
Add also to that , we dont have a leg to stand on in the courts
Its all over ladies and gents all over

"Why the pretense?"

... because some of us are dumb enough to believe it. PH comes to mind.

At least AT gets things done….lots of 3 man crews already on the roster, to and from europe!

Though lets me honest, the presence of these 3 man crews has nothing to with a well thought out plan!

Just because you see a 3 man roster (or other changes) doesn't mean anything is getting done. Wonder how many of these will actually be flown with the folks rostered to do so (or at all).

How efficient is a perennially unstable roster ? How efficient are multiple changes today only to create 4 gaps in the roster later in the week ? How efficient are wild swings of flight time into overtime and people being sat because they time out (or PXd home) ? How efficient is seeing (legitimate) unfit days go from 1 or 2 to 35 (that's a month of lost productivity on top of everything else). How efficient are last minute ASR-Fs from body clock swaps ? How efficient is phones that ring unanswered or PX/PTing everyone all over the place ? How efficient is burning FTLs on reserve ? How efficient is positioning someone who lives in Vancouver but LA based on reserve from LA back to Vancouver (and giving them a hotel room and allowances) only to operate out of Vancouver later ?

THESE type of things could have very real productivity gains.

Shep,

the mention of 3 man crew already appearing was meant very tongue in cheek. It is, though, different, now that they don't have to find a 4th crew member for each flight crewed 'legally' with 3.

I think the GC has a very tough job.

The company has pushed and now they have to chose what actions to take.

Mind you they are dealing with a very hostile company when it comes to these things AND, a pilot group who has a reputation to be less than unified because of self serving individuals and company promoted division.

What will YOU do if the option for serious action is presented???

Fume on PPrune?

Yammer nicely about how you are a bit upset???

Or man up and support the union???


We will get exactly what we are willing to accept.

Sorry, Hugh. Sometimes I miss things when I don't sleep......

I think the big problem is the paradigm has shifted from "how can I help the team succeed" to "how can I make this thing work for me" The two CAN go hand in hand but at present are completely opposites with a great deal of hostility.

When 99.5% of your operational subject matter experts tell you your RPs are out to lunch you have a problem.

It's a great management strategy if you like inefficiency and to lose money and assets. They've taken what can be one of the best jobs and best deals on the planet and somehow wound up pizzing everyone off.

The fact that China is bleeding capital (that may have never been there) won't help them. It's hard to buy cars with no money. And it's hard to shuffle around airplanes and missions without liquid assets.

Agreed with everything else you say but let's not get carried away.. Signing on 10 minutes early isn't giving crew control any advantages. Whether you're sitting twiddling your thumb or just having a look at the paper work 10 minutes early doesn't make any difference at all.

Flap 10
 

Maybe, or maybe not.

The point is that we are in CC, so don't start work early!

"warned and risk their benefits and/or membership by non-compliance"

not a lot seems to have happened to the new trainers….or are we using the convenience of 'they applied before the ban' to forget about them?

Have a list too……it'll haunt them in the end!

Report them to the union?
 

Has ANY member been booted from the union for failing to follow CC?

I think not.

Curtain,

From AFTL

Actual Reporting Times

For all duties, the Scheduled Reporting Time or the time at which the crew member actually reports for duty, whichever is the later.

If you want to sound intelligent at least know your AFTL.

The requirement for not signing on early has a lot more to do with being called out of reserve. In that scenario, yes, I use the full 2 hours 15 minutes because the actual reporting time does count.

I am not a minion, I am a free thinking man, go ahead let the GC kick me out because I signed on 10 minutes early for my published flight..I dare them! You'll find the membership numbers dwindling pretty fast. :ugh::ugh::mad::mad:

Dan, please use the term "scab" only for someone who has crossed a picket line. It's not to be used lightly...

Flap (or Flaps, which is it?) maybe you haven't been around long enough, but, as far as I remember, the requirement for not signing in early is because the company does not give us enough time to adequately accomplish our pre-flight duties. Signing in on time and taking the appropriate amount of time to accomplish your pre-flight duties will necessitate a departure delay.

Got it?

Oval,

I've been here long enough thank you very much, maybe too long!! Last time I checked we weren't in MSS. You do know what I mean by that right?

We are in Contract Compliance period. I have not seen any directives from the HKAOA to attempt to delay departures. Even if you sign on at precisely the sign on time, you are still required to complete all your preflight duties on time. We've been signing on at STD-70 in HKG now for several years, long before CC was implemented.

As I said, let's not get carried away. I challenge anyone to give me a valid example of how signing on 10 minutes early on your published flight jeopardizes CC.

Sorry that doesn't cut it as a valid example. you would have to speak to Crew Control via phone in the first place. If the flight dispatcher notifies you of a message, then you tell the dispatcher you'll call them in few minutes. It ain't difficult. Crew Controllers aren't on the dispatch floor hunting you down. If they were, no matter if you were sitting in the lounge area, or standing at the counter it would be of no help.

Believe me I detest management as much as you do and I do more than my share. What I also don't like is super militant individuals acting like goons without any concept of how things work. Anyway enough ranting.

:ugh::ugh: You do realize we get absolutely no credit for that time at flight dispatch right? regardless if you show up on time or early.

The lack of progress is because of buffoons like yourself that think CC is going to be a game changer. You want progress let's strike, I am hardened up and ready, are you?

Sorry, Flap10, but you're wrong.

Follow the CC instructions: they're easily understood.

Yep, more well meaning lists. I have no wish to insult you or your fellow's motives, and I truly hope it's working for you.
Please.
Just relax, do your job. No more.

Wait, to clarify, the directive about it's ok to help them out the first FOUR days after operations have ceased, are we suppose to follow that also? Is it ok for me to work on my G days during those first four days? It's an AOA directive right? So it must be ok! But dare I sign on 10 minutes early, I've really compromised our efforts and unity.

The stupidity is laughable!

Hilarious
 

You boys are hilarious. A good initial post followed by a bunch of children having a playground quarrel . Grow up the lot of you.

So glad I resigned
 

Boy what a complete mess.

So very glad I resigned and not still putting up with this abuse.

Do not miss it one little bit.

Good luck guys, you're going to need it.

What a complete asswipe of a company. Hope they fail!

Cheers.

Curtain,

Never forget what the I in BIFFO stands for! It might explain why F10 needs more time!

So we're already making excuses are we little girl :yuk::yuk: As we all know the biggest talkers on this forum are usually the weakest ones.

The whole point to my initial thread was the fact that you should ought to know who your enemy is and know the game. Look at the big picture and be careful how you accuse other members over silly directives that have zero implications. But you do a good job putting people offside that's for sure. Furthermore, nobody made you the police union, so you can go and get Fuc@ed.

We've just had company amended RPs shoved up our arses and you're outlining in detail the directives of CC, as if you're still hanging on to that false notion that CC hasn't worked due to certain members not following the directives to the letter. Fuc*ing wake up and smell the coffee little girl. We tried CC, has had an effect but not the effect we were hoping for. It's time to up the ante!

Hugo, Ironic that you calling someone Idiot when you've completely (and I mean by a long shot) misassumed where I am from...LMAO. Before you make a fool of yourself at least be certain where I am from.

A drunk might be easier to understand. Actions/words define an individual. F10, I don't give two hoots where you are from; forthwith you shall be a BIF who really seems to take PPRUNE seriously. Now that's funny!

Flap 10 is indicative of why nothing will be achieved by the AOA . With such ignorance in the work force unity will never be achieved. Perhaps Flap 10 did not play enough team sports at school and so failed to realise the importance of membership of one side against another.

Errr F10 calling for an increase in industrial action and you clowns are quick to shoot him down. Perhaps there's no unity because of the hostility shown towards each other.

Give it a rest Curtain , we get it, you're however starting to act like a petulant child. When the time comes will see which side of the fence everyone is sitting on. Getting all worked up on this forum is no good. Relax bro.

DanBuster,

Sure, the people going into training now are going against the wishes of the union, but, they are not scabs, no more than someone signing on 10 minutes early is a scab.

A strike is a work stoppage; the concerted refusal of employees to perform work that their employer has assigned to them.

As being a trainer has not been assigned to ANYONE, refusing to be a trainer is not equivalent to being on strike.

Calling those who joined during the recruitment ban scabs while AOA members took upgrades to replace those who were fired is another example of misinterpretation.

Here's a better definition of scab:

A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.

A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and
walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession,
often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he think of anything other
then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of
a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining
table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.

Please reserve the use of the word scab for someone who crosses a picket line of a striking worker, a worker who is risking his career, his finances and his family for better conditions.

Refusing to go into training is hardly that...

Dude honestly you need to get laid!!

All you want to do is hide behind your contract and not stick your head out. I've been on CC longer than you've been with the company, so spare me the self righteous lectures, it's getting old. 466 posts of the same garbage.

CC is now a mere inconvenience to the company, get that through your head. The two pronged attack of Yammering and CC isn't gonna cut it anymore.

We're in this current situation because we've done f*ck all. Not because of me getting to the counter a few minutes early, or the guy next to me that's not wearing his red lanyard. Get a life!

FACT: The most vocal staunch AoA members during the mass sickout in 99 were the last to go sick. They were **** scared to go first and wanted to hide behind numbers.

You reek of that character!

You can pretend and beat your chest on an anonymous forum all you want, but I have seen it countless times before, from CoS 08 to the second round of SLS. What people say and how they act on this forum is completely different to what they say and do in real life.

Curtain Rod et al, wake up and smell the coffee! F10 is a realist not a defeatist, if you think that every Union member shares the same level of commitment as you then you are going to be very disappointed if the stakes are ever raised.

Remember this is a union whose members voted out 5-4-3,
who voted in credit free reserve,
who voted in a 5% pay cut to junior CN scales (will cost every CoS99 guy around 200K),
who voted in RA65 with no seniority protections for staying on RA55, all because it suited various members of the committee of that time.

Were you around for MSS? I was and I am sure the same level of insincerity to follow Union recommendations will occur again. Some are members purely for the Insurance and nothing else.

But why is the FAU able to be successful with the same variable level of commitment from its members? It had members of all service levels out campaigning to stop a pay cut to its newer joiners and theft of meal allowances, within a few weeks it had the company folding. Don't try to justify it with they have less to lose, they have families and mortgages just like us.

So when have we campaigned against a new lower wage for new joiners (B scale or C scale), or unsafe flight patterns, or reduction in manning levels or actually anything of real concern ? Why, because the plain simple truth is we couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. Instead we complain here or on Yammer, great plan.

Rather than writing 500+ almost identical posts on an anonymous web-site I suggest you devote some energy to having a plan B other than Cathay.

Or assist in nailing down some protections for 3 man ULR, such as no SO can be substituted for other crew, days off before and after, if training crew complement to be increased etc

CC is an inconvenience and only really has a large impact on disruptions and when there is a crew shortage. Sure we have a crew shortage, but the disruptions have not come so much this last typhoon season. As a result CC although in the long term is effective it doesn't give the instant improvement in conditions we would all like to see.

All companies look at one compelling factor to measure employee satisfaction and it's sick leave and turnover. I have not seen turn over increase as yet, maybe it's due to the fact some are willing to hang on to see if things can be fixed. Lots of airbus guys have just started commuting would suggest that there is a belief that things will get better just around the corner. Guys not retiring when considerably low currencies are being recorded also suggests a curiosity of what will be after the storm passes?

Sickness: Since CC there was one recorded increase in sickness. The management started a witch hunt and 3 guys got sacked. All happened to be commuters and they were tracked down by analysing their movements around their sickness. This sickness was not co ordinated or planned, it was just a coincidence. The result is a snap shot of what will happen in the future when sickness hits the magic threshold again.

I heard of a pattern being changed recently due to flight crew sickness. those responsible organised the change them selves. Without going into details.

Why do the FA's go on strike but pilots don't. Because they can go out and get any job in HK that will pay similar or more than what They currently get. For the pilots it's more difficult as we are highly specialised and can't go to any old job without losing something. Also, to walk from one outfit to another is not possible without a considerable amount of time being lost before the new job can be started. All these factors make it impossible for the union to be united as there will always be someone that will break ( logically speaking and the past shows this as true). We know this as well as the company.

What should we do? Be responsible, take it on yourself to realise that we all have a part to play. everything you do has an effect either positive or negative. Analyse these effects and decide what is best for you for others and ultimately the effect it will have on achieving the ultimate end goal which is overall improvement to conditions. In other words stop your arguing, cover yourself legally and make your own personal stand for what's acceptable and if we all think the same, the natural increase in sickness without any directive from the AOA or pattern being able to be detected by the company will achieve your desired result sooner.

Cheers

beep wrong RAT.

they are watching sickness for a long while now.....those commuters were caught cause it was over the xmas holidays, not a one off. Straight out of a manager....they appear to look at sickness patterns about two months behind.

but they get around to it.

interesting that my phone is ringing on the 15th.

Sorry Curtain but you're being too smug even for my liking.

That's great that you can use Google. Hopefully you can educate yourself and apply it to your posts. You've been repeating yourself like a broken record and offered nothing to the argument. You talk of unity and brotherhood and yet your conduct says the opposite.

As HOR mentioned everyone has a different level of commitment. Frankly I've caught myself signing on early on occasion as well, it's easy to do when you're going to work 15 times or more a month. Do I all of sudden sit on the other side of the fence as you? I don't think so! What if the AoA rewords the directive and says within 10 minutes of sign on, does F10 automatically become a team player? Stop being so anal, judgmental and accusatory, all you're doing is pissing off a senior member of the association.

Okay we need to stop worrying about guys who sign on more than 10 mins before departure , it's a non event . What we need to concentrate on is those taking C&T positions and all the GDO workers who are crewing flights that would either require a manager to operate them or not go

You really need to read this article posted on another thread

https://libcom.org/library/how-sack-...-direct-action

Don't get angry just make a plan . It's not rocket science

One thing that this company needs to realize is

Skilled labour isn't cheap and cheap labour isn't skilled

Because once the other airlines start to pay a decent living wage there will be a massive migration which will see Cathay cripplingly short of crew
This constant attack on our COS will come back to bite them on the ass

Accountants cannot put a cost of employee good will , so in preference to having a group with their hands on the throttles actively doing everything they can to save money . They have now a pilot group actively working against them or at the very least totally disinterested in going the extra mile to help out
Not A great way to run a company

Oriental. You are correct. I would say that the Rubicon has been crossed with this group of pilots. Most of the CX crew are now ACTIVELY working against the company interests. They have had enough. AT has driven the last nail into the operational coffin with her arbitrary and misguided change to RP's. Only a non-pilot could have any thought that this would be a good idea. If you are not 'feeling well', call unfit. Then, take an hour out of your day to see a Dr and get a 10 day sick note. There is NOTHING the company can do about it. You are legitimately off work unfit, and they then have to move on to fighting the next fire...and the next...and the next... This company has NO respect for you, NO regard for the future of you and your family, and absolutely NO regard for your long term health and well being. AT came into the job with all the usual "cooperative" and "understanding" rhetoric. All of it empty words. Every word of it. Hold your friends and coilleagues to account, and make sure that this time the company knows we are deadly serious about demanding and obtaining a proper contract.

@RAT Management

Why do the FA's go on strike but pilots don't. Because they can go out and get any job in HK that will pay similar or more than what They currently get.

Brother, are you out of touch. Median starting wages for college graduates in Hong Kong is at 20-year lows.

Salaries of Hong Kong?s university graduates dropped 20 per cent in last 20 years, study finds | South China Morning Post

FAs are only required to possess secondary school education, the job has a good deal of perks for young recent graduates and even starting pay is considerably higher than what college graduates can expect at most firms in Hong Kong for most positions these days.

I don't disagree with the gist of your post, but get real. FA is still one of the better paid jobs for most young people in Hong Kong starting out in the work force. It's the lack of career progression and pay increases that has most crew leaving within a few years.

No, the cabin crew were more easily rallied because they're a culturally more homogeneous group; they work in small teams per norm and are more engaged in social media platforms etcetera. It doesn't hurt that the % of local crew has grown to well over 70% of total crew. In short, they're a stronger peer group. Stakes certainly play a roll, but don't soft pedal their resolve to stand and fight ffs. These are the same kids standing in the streets fighting the commie juggernaut. I salute them and wish we had the kind of balls they had.

Getting back to the thread topic
 

Some facts and a few questions:

Facts
1. Whilst negotiating RP's back in 2000 the company (GMA later DFO) agreed that RP's would become legally binding as an attachment to CoS.
2. The GMA/DFO reneged on this promise.
3. We at least had RP's that it was agreed by both parties would remain in effect until new RP's could be agreed upon. This has been accepted custom and practice for the last 15 years as successive agreed RP's have replaced older ones.
4. You have reneged on this. (Unilaterally imposing 3 man LRO & 2 man WOCL flights, dismantling A days and disregarding the provisions surrounding the rostering of reserve)
5. You have written to the HKAOA stating that you will "keep RP's in their current form until 2017 or until new RP's are agreed with the HKAOA"

Questions
1. Why have you carried out fact 4 above?
2. Given that I'm sure the reasons you give will be considered to be good ones by yourself, what additional guarantees are you giving that you will comply with fact 5?
3. If you were a pilot at Cathay Pacific would you even believe fact 5 yourself?
4. What is your understanding of the word "agreement" and do you think that your actions demonstrate either your understanding of the word, the generally accepted understanding of the word, neither or both?
5. What are your plans for RP17?

kind regards