HOUSING
 

Rumour has it that CX wants to change housing. My response: mess with the stability of my family and I and you will see a sickness rate that will ground the airline overnight. Go ahead...call my bluff. See you in two or three months after I'm back from 'stress leave'. Seriously, push that button. Just give me a reason (well, give me yet another reason ). As soon as I hear Nick has taken a cut in his housing. Otherwise....make my day.

We will fire many pilots with you being the first. Problem solved.How will YOUR FAMILY deal with that?

We don’t care about YOUR FAMILY, We are here to make money and yes we are going after housing, rostering and very low pay rises.

Haven’t you figured it out yet, your threats are meaningless. Next.

The pilot group has no idea how to do contract compliance properly, most don’t want to do it. Every pilot is looking over their shoulder thinking they will stick out if they should try contract compliance.

To My Bonus
(Sent on behalf of “The Management”)

Yes, back in 2001 that was the case. This time round, we'll see. As for me, see you after my sick leave. Fact

Good luck with keeping your check and trainers after that move. And Management...save the predictable comments. Housing is sacrosanct, and it will be THE red line. We'll see though wont we.

No housing = No work
I was seriously considering a "yes" vote on the pay offer, mostly coz I'm sick of all the arguing & negative sentiment, but if this rumor turns out to have any truth to it my "No" vote is a lock!

Everybody should educate themselves on how the boys at Air France are dealing with their situation & grow a pair ! Their pilots have already cost the company $25 million Euro this month by standing their ground.

I wouldn't worry about the C&T dept too much. Break even would be at the SCN yr 6 point and most of them are at, close to or beyond that.
Given that everyone keeps telling me the housing market's about to crash, it might not be a bad idea!;)

The housing market has been about to crash for the last 10 years!
Most guys who use the housing to cover a mortgage have the repayments maxed out now, so what will they do, just simply sell their house for whatever they can get & go rent in Tung Chung?

If true, where's the letter?

It should be published on the AoA website.

Anyway, a 25 years grandfathering would be adequate.

What about the captains who were renting at ceiling? I suppose it's okay for them to move out to a place half as small because they were just renting?

Maybe they will offer that 'cash' allowance in London, now that RH is taking a base? :yuk:

Just vote yes to the pay offer, and watch as CX immediately comes at housing and RPs with a chainsaw...

Why do you think they're such in a hurry for us to accept it?

Excellent point.

Y M

The company is not in a hurry for us to sign it, 9 months after the start of negotiations?

We need to look at the long game they are playing, is this "rumour" to get everyone to vote no? This will save them money and play into their hands as CC is NOT the magical charm a few vocalists think it is.

They have been planning this "attack" on housing for a long time and a cash "allowance" will make us very similar to other HK expats, to spend as you wish.

A new contract anyone?

Swire are NOT fools, treat them like that at your peril.

It's a wind up.

Its a great Wind up love the timing of this one .......mmmmmmm

Swire aren't fools just bully's who have got away with it for a along time

Look at the gazzillions they have lost fighting the 49ers
Base closures etc etc etc
Being A bully you pay the price eventually

Wind up or not. CX will be phasing out all expat benefits over the coming months and years. The whole shebang is on a downward trajectory.

Get out, while you still can.

It's not a rumour, it's what I believe. That said, I'll bet you my overtime that both RPs and Housing are going to come under duress very soon. The sooner that pay raise issue is sorted, the sooner they'll come at it.

And no, a 'NO' vote does not necessarily mean CC. The pressure is on the company to come up with an acceptable offer before they can engage us on RPs, which is their priority, and housing. They're tied by the GFBA too, after all.

The few percent more they could easily give us are nothing compared to the savings they are seeking on productivity.

Oh, look. Pay raise propaganda is item #1 on the management 'wrap-up' again. That's only seven times in a row...

It's quite simple, ignore RP's, ignore the next step, ignore all the issues that are being used to cloud this offer....look at the offer and decide if it's good enough or not. Don't just shrug your f***ing shoulders and mutter 'the NC think it's the best we'll get so we may as well take it whilst we can'.

Focus, purely on pay. Is it good enough? Is it not?

just say NO!

Interestingly, the housing allowance and it being tied to an index is the only thing that protects us from inflation.
If we lose the tie to the index, we will have to fight for a rise year after year for a pay rise, only to break even.

This sucks balls.

Yeah, isn't funny, how easy all this could be?

If they had offered 4% in January, everyone would have been happy, showing goodwill, saving money, etc...

But no, we had to fight for it. And it's because we had to fight for 9 months, that even if the offer is accepted, most pilots still won't show any sign of goodwill.

Now imagine doing the same for housing.
We'd have to come with benchmarks, show the company that rents are at an absolute high. And we'd have to accept a 20-50% reduction in housing? Maybe go on strike to keep what we have? Just to achieve what? Status quo for us, millions lost for the company?
These managers have absolutely no clue how to get the best productivity out of us.

Look at our brothers in France, Germany and soon Luxemburg.
All the managers achieved there is losing shareholders money, and losing their staff support.

When C-Scale occurred very few B-Scale guys said much & did far less against it. Those of us who said no voted with our feet: 59/60. All we (like many of you) worked so hard for the "CX Career" & patiently sat by & watched career progression time wasted while waiting 3+ years for the offer promised.... Now when all the predictions rumoured may / probably come true the vitriol & threats are remarkable at best.

The AOA did nothing but for some pitiful lines in the monthly updates.

It didn't affect you/them so you did nothing.

No threats of "sick-outs" or long term "stress leave" to demonstrate against the SEVERE degradation of pilot remuneration, recruitment standards or heaven forbid, housing: the entire crux of C-Scale. Not even a "stern letter" to management. Nothing.

How many pay negotiation talks have similarly been treated with contempt from management?? And then the AOA speaks of CC, & then they sit idle to decide exactly what CC "is"..... Since 1994 it's been the same story.

Now if predictions & rumours come true C-Scale will come to bite. And so many will ask "How did this happen??"

Warham wrote that the only way to protect the present is to protect the future.

Prima Nocta. You're being bred out & didn't see it coming.

People would be happy without housing allowance... if they were able to get a base!

Be careful: less housing allowance in HK = less incentive for the company to open bases, or to keep them open.

Or if they just imposed it like they did for every other employeee.

Exactly.

And why do you think the manager on charge (DFO) decided for no pay raise for the last couple of years?

No, it's not to save money for the company in a difficult time, or for the shareholders. It's just for his own bonus!
Now, how much money in lost opportunities (cancelled flights) did this cost?

I don't understand how Cathay expects people to live happily in Hong Kong with no housing. Ok, I know all the I cadets are doing it, but they aren't " normal" yet. ( wife, kids, lack of big jet syndrome). I don't get it.

http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/fi...?itok=AYz_xbdD

Welcome to Hongkey town, where you and your future kids will live in this pollution jungle.

HKG is dying, seriously thinking off to sandpit then:yuk:

The same thing will happen with housing that is happening with pay.

There will be just enough added again to the SO HKPA to get 550 of them to vote in a decrease for the rest of the gang. That's the way it's working now, that's the way it's going to work for housing.

Unless you figure out a way to inform the 550 most junior members of your workforce who have never played this game, and quickly, that they're in the big leagues now, this workforce will continue to enjoy degrading conditions of service for years to come. No thanks to the current "association," we'll see if the next ones have the wherewithall to stand firm. It's trial by fire, boys.

It's like walking into a shop in Bali, and looking at a t-shirt, which the gal announces is for sale for 400 USD. Do you take the first offer? You NEVER take the first offer, folks. Never. Especially in light of current conditions!

I wouldn't be so sure, there is a lot more solidarity in their ranks than the others

The main reason HKPA should not be included in pay offers, just like housing. Both should be negotiated as separate issues. Only those eligible for the benefit should be allowed to vote on said benefit. Lumping in HKPA with pay is setting a precedent and housing will follow.

Any pay deal with either HKPA or housing should be instantly thrown out.

The time will come when an increase to HKPA and a decrease in housing are voted for in the same motion by all members.

I think you give the SO body too much credit. They lined up in droves begging for a shiny jet job when C-Scale Mk I didn't have housing at all.

What do you think will happen in the very near future when those on C-Scale are in the majority and they hold the balance of power when it comes to voting and numbers?

The SO's are the only one playing this game properly.

Out of my SO friends Kiwi'sOz/Brits/Locals/Canadians I think we are around 90% No for this pay offer. We see what the company are trying to do but we have a lot less to lose than full housing guys with time in so we can afford to stand our ground and support you even though these days you need us a lot more than we need you (this is not meant to be divisive, just statement of fact). We don't work G days and we call in sick when we are tired or otherwise f@cked off. We discuss things on Facebook where people feel they can contribute and educate each other and have an opinion rather than going on the AOA boards and getting shot down by a 20 year Captain who has the political nous of a baked potato, purely on the basis we have only been here 5 minutes. We understand a lot more than you guys realise. You should be looking at your B Scale friends and asking them what they see going forwards if they vote Yes because they don't want to rock the boat.

ChinaBeached: If this contract does stay as a sh1t sandwich most of us take our wide body hours to a better airline whilst still in our mid/late 20's. Most of us lined up for a job when the world was up **** street and it offered a guaranteed salary and career progression. If the contract improves great, if not we are here as a stepping stone as per the plan. Half my friends are JFO's on a 777/330 in their mid 20's. Yeh, we're all completely stupid!

It's in our best interest to keep YOUR housing?

I would have thought it was in EVERYONE's best interest to keep expat housing 4 years ago? But thanks for trying I guess :ugh:

Guess what, B scale housing is going to be cut to pieces at some stage in the not to distant future, whether this current proposal gets voted in or out.

I would start living on a budget and pouring money into the war chest so when the cut comes, it's not too deep. If you need help with tips living on a budget, just chat with your SO next time you are at work.

And yes when C scale has the voting power china beached, we will likely fold and vote in OUR best interest and eat the old so to speak, after years of being given less. But maybe we could all actually work together before then.

Shirley - yes you are.

You accepted a job that crapped on the contracts, terms and conditions of the rest of the pilot body you all so proudly "Facebook" amongst each other.

Shiny Jet Syndrome at it's peak. Golly gee whiz.... My mates are JFOs on pretty jets. When was the last time you hand flew a an NDB approach at night, breaking off in the circling area to land after being offset 90 deg? My point? These are skills you decided you don't want or need and instead took a short cut and impatiently and greedily undercut the market to take a job that those of us with the experience and credentials turned down.

Those 20 year Capts you have the audacity to mock are the ones who have more experience about HK and CX than you will ever be able to "tweet" about. Your arrogance reeks only slightly more than your petulant nature. (Look it up).

So CX is a stepping stone? So where are you going to take your P2X hours to? ICAO does't recognise them. But of course you all knew that and understood the ramification of this before signing...... They're only valid within the CX through a CAD dispensation. So your Facebook buddies are JFO's reverse high 5-ing at Shek O beach while playing volley ball..... So when they have > 4000 hrs TT they "MAY" be competitive for an interview at EK, EY or QR. Friends of mine work at all 3 now and without those type of hours you're simply not competitive with respect to other candidates.

If not for you and your Facebook buddies such threats on the terms & conditions, as per this thread, of the general pilot body would not exist.

Quickly post this to Facebook so your buddies can best decide on the direction CX should take and how you all should vote. Hurry!!!!! (Too many characters to tweet - apologies.)

Tres: I wish you were right.

Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour.

Silberfuchs

You and I I'm pretty sure are roughly of the same vintage at CX but if memory serves me correctly, for our first two years in Hong Kong we received 50% of the zonal housing allowance then 100% after that irrespective of our rank. At the time I joined that equated to HK$18000 per month for the first two years. The housing allowance also wasn't based on official HK government housing figures but on average housing allowances paid out by CX to expat employees. I think it was reviewed every six months rather than monthly as it is done now also.

Tres Cool,

It's posts like yours that help convince the FO/CN sitting on the fence for the pay deal to vote YES! I was thinking of voting NO, but you have helped me see that people such as yourself most certainly would throw me under the bus if given the chance.

I think it's very unfair that I wasn't given a big chunk of money when I left Adelaide like you guys were, but I accept that was the contract I signed so I won't be fighting to have part of your salary deducted and put into my account to make up for it.

One day you will be the majority, but that will be years away still. Maybe you should stop crying like a baby and appreciate that you have absolutely won the lottery by getting straight onto a widebody, without paying for your training and not having to do the grind in GA/regionals/military.

ChinaBeached...

I wasnt brand new when I joined and I have my share of war stories in everything upto single pilot twin turbine ops. Ive done a lot of other jobs within the industry too not just flying. I am sure I could show you a thing or two about a thing or two if you'd pull your head out if your ass long enough to listen, as too could a lot of current SOs. And IF I was brand new so ******* what? Cadets have operated 737's etc straight out of flying school for as long as ive been around in good airlines. You are calling them stupid because they want to sit in a 777? Best take that 210 job in the NT and turn down the 777 career gig because thats going to be best in the long run? Pull your head out!! You're pissed off because they have it easier. Dont hate the player hate the game because you would have done the exact samw thing in their shoes and if you wouldnt you either a) came from money or b) are lying. Best be sure to slate all of our ex RAF guys too while you're at it.... They were obviously distracted by tweeting about how to log their P2X to see how **** the package was. And they are worth so much more!!

So you turned C scale down, good for you. Pehaps next time I turn down a job offer when im unemployed you can tell my wife and children that I was right to do it because I was really just being impatient, greedy and undercutting the market by accepting it. Maybe if I waited long enough B-Scale would return. I am sure my Mrs and kids would understand that when I was signing on every month. When the world hits the skids, packages drop. Not rocket science its called market forces and no amount of integrity will change that. Read an economics textbook. You don't have a single ******* clue about peoples situations and reasoning and your arrogance jumps off the page.

And yes Lets blindly listen to the Captains who have watched market forces and weak leadership get us from A scale to C Scale tell us how to fight management. Flightdeck= Yes. Generally, TONS of respect for their opinions. Industrial relations= Ill take you on your merits. Thats not arrogance its common sense.

To the rest of the CX pilots, I don't think I am only speaking for myself when I say in general new guys have a lot of respect for your experience and abilities and we are keen to listen. I certainly do, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised when the **** hits the fan over housing because we realise it affects us too so we will stick with you regardless.

You think you are a shining light of moral intengrity but in all likelihood you are a self righteous cock who thinks he has the right to question other peoples decisions and reasoning. Walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me im a child. Your arrogance is astounding.

AndontcallmeShirley,

thanks for that. Glad someone put him in his place...

Tres and Shirley
Are you ' c scale' ? If you are , then what are you doing commentating on the thread ' housing' , you did not sign for it when you joined.period.
What are you doing here commentating on it
Do you see me going after A scale fixed benefit pension ?
Is it your sense of entitlement thats causing you to comment on something that you did not sign up for or what?? Please enlighten me

Justify your decision to accept a contract FAR below the greater pilot body as you wish. Yet you blame those who ho went before you for C-Scale?? And I'm arrogant? You made your decision & sold out. Full stop.

Market forces??!! YOU are the force behind this micro economic culture of CX! YOU & your Facebook buddies were presented with the sh!t sandwich, begged to eat it & say thank you for it daily. You even justify the flavour via forums like these. Had none of you have taken it then there would be no DEMAND for what they are SUPPLYING. Supply & demand. Heard of it? How am I going with the economics?

I'll agree & apologise for the misrepresentation that all iCadets have zero experience. However the majority do not. RAF guys? Yep, met a few of them. Not one however had actively been flying or had begun flight training back in the UK. That's not to say others had or were. They were made redundant prior to flight training (the several whom I've met).

How are you going to justify your decision to your wife & kids you ask? Dunno fella. I'd start with an apology though. When your wife & kids are stuck in a 500-600 sq ft apartment in the NT's living on a single C-Scale income, housing a pittance of other expat contracts & industries, housing NOT factored to the housing market hence an ever depreciating figure in real terms, considering kids' education costs also...... Retirement on that income & trying to raise a family???

Yep: start with an apology.

Dong: Yeah, I've been put in my place all right: an airline job that I EARNED without under cutting my colleagues while paying me what I deserve. Best you get back to the reverse high 5's with Shirley. You made your bed, I made mine. Biggest difference is that I didn't crap on the industry or colleagues to get here.