Controlled Rest
 

Jet Airways plane drops 1500 metres while pilot naps

Need I say more

Yes you do need to say more.

I'll say more....

It happens now as a matter of course on every single through the night flight where I work. Wasn't the case 5 years ago - but since it's been legitimized by being written in the manuals its become SOP.

But its not a fatigue issue - cause fatigue is described as long term tiredness/exhaustion - whereas this is only " unexpected tiredness on the day".

Funny that I ALWAYS unexpectedly feel tired around 4 AM....although we tend to make sure the guy/girl that's operating/awake doesn't play Ipad games at the time...

There is a time and a place for it.

How could a 777 in LNAV VNAV descend anyway? Why wasn't she keeping a normal Eye on things? Doesn't the Altitude Alert issue a Master Caution if you deviate from set level on the MCP?

So many questions, so much incompetence.....

Controlled rest sounds like an oxymoron but a nap can be useful to fight fatigue.

Judging by the explainations of the event there seems to be a serious SA deficit aboard. How does it sound when one person stated they were asleep and the other stated they were busy on their tablet ? Must've gotten coached by Lois Lerner.

Well done. I think the two big issues with our industry have been highlighted in this article.

1 - Why do we need controlled rest? If the rosters where designed properly then this would not be required. Also in which manual can 'Control Rest' be found? If it is not in a manual is it legal according to CAD?

2 - Not knowing the individuals background but I would happen to bet that she was a low time (MPL?) type. Exactly how can you descend 1500' without noticing? ROD 1000'/min would have had a large power/bleed change which should have been heard/felt or a ROD <500'/min would have taken over 3 min, how often does she scan the instruments?

Not saying all new pilots are like this however we are tending to fly more and more single pilot which obviously does not work with a low experience/control rest combination.

My policy is not to take controlled rest with cadet SOs next to me...

AQIS,

That seems fairly obvious. I do the same. Anyone who is willing to take CR with a 200 hour wonder in the seat needs to get their head examined. This is just one of the many reasons three man Europe is a bad idea. The solo FO gets that crap rest period and is stuck baby sitting during the good rest period, ie his circadian low. If they want three man Europe, make it 2CN/1FO, or at a minimum 1CN/2RQFO. After all, that I'd the "industry standard."

"1 - Why do we need controlled rest? If the rosters where designed properly then this would not be required. Also in which manual can 'Control Rest' be found? If it is not in a manual is it legal according to CAD?"

Ops A

I can't recall a single incidident where I felt umcomfortable operating with a SFO.
Pure fabrication imho, they are well trained and highly reliable. Good lads as well.

Seems to be a case of "abused child becomes abusing adult" thing, in Cathay we love to complain about senior colleagues... and then go after the junior ones.

Not impressed.

He said SO i.e. second officer, not SFO i.e. senior first officer.

But then over the years we all seen a couple of doubtful Commanders and FOs as well.

You are very fortunate to have a Controlled Rest procedure.

At KA there is no such thing. So, with the ridiculous FTL's, you can be called out from standby, and fly a return sector to the sub-continent > 9 hours stick time, with the 23 hour rule in force due disruptions, and you don't even need to have a First Officer sitting next to you. It could be a recently graduated Cadet / MPL Second Officer.

Controlled Rest would be appreciated.

Typo. I do mean SO's

G'burg,
How about UNcontrolled rest? A number of rosters, after multiple changes etc, seem to lend themselves to that.

Thats bull****.

I could have 5 G's, then one 5 hour night flight through the WOCL, and at 3am I'm going to want to close my eyes for a bit. Don't blame the FTL's for needing controlled rest (other stuff maybe), think about what WOCL stands for.

Will IB Fayed

Controlled rest is a euphemism. It is completely unsafe and defies common sense. It is single pilot IFR in a large commercial jet. The idea that one pilot can sleep in the cockpit was instituted by management to forego three man crews. If you can't stay awake after five Gs there is something wrong with you....open the cockpit door and take a look at the faces of the several hundred passengers whose lives are in your hands.....go to the washroom and throw some water in your face.

The fact that it is unsafe is borne out by the stream of constant news stories about pilots that are falling asleep in flight while the airplane and passengers are careening through the sky, changing altitude or over flying their destination.

What about the flight attendants and the other pilot who must stay awake while little bear sleeps?

I'll never forget coming out of the bunk one night to see the "relief" pilot flat out in the seat with a pillow and comforter....

Unbelievable...!

That must have been SB... !

That's easy for you to say. You obviously fly long-haul, most probably with 4 pilots and 4-5 hours in the bunk. What about the guys flying two-crew for 7-8 hours through the middle of the night with no in-flight rest? No amount of G-days beforehand will stop the head nods and micro-sleeps during the subsequent descent and approach. What's less safe - 45 mins of controlled rest for each pilot during an appropriate time in the cruise, or two pilots falling asleep on descent?

Just because multiple crew are required for climbs and descents doesn't mean that enroute can't safely be done by one person most of the time. Have you ever used the washroom in flight. That would be completely unsafe if we go by your thinking. Circadian lows happen and I will continue to make sure that I am alert for the approach as I have done for years like so many others.

Frequently, flight attendants have rest facilities as well by the way.

Raven,

Science does not back your claims, and neither does my personal experience.

Raven as usual another imbecile post.

Amazes me how we can all work for the same company and yet some have absolutely no clue as to how fatiguing some patterns are on the other fleets.

Example DXB-HKG two crew through your circadian low with an FDP of 9+ hours. This having flown to DXB through the night as well only two days prior to the return sector. I challenge anyone to stay awake and alert on that sector. I don't care if you throw a bucket full of ice water on yourself, it won't help.

Thanks Flap 10.....I love you too!

As usual we disagree.

BTW, I've been on every fleet.

Raven

Raven, when you were on the Airbus, did you do much ME/India/Australia or mainly regional 330 and long haul 340? I don't often agree with cxorcist but I do in this case - Controlled Rest is scientifically proven to increase alertness levels at the end of a flight through the WOCL. By the way, what's Controlled Rest a euphemism for?

STP

Hi Steve,
To answer your question, when I was on the Airbus....yes, I did plenty of Australian and middle eastern patterns.....they were mentally and physically exhausting.....and rightly demanded a three pilot crew.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that pilots should not be fatigued flying some of the ball-breaking patterns we fly through our WOCL, especially the cumulative effect of doing so. What offends me is that airline management ignore the obvious need for a leg stretch pilot and, instead, pretend that sleeping on the job is as safe by candy coating it with a nice safe sounding term like "controlled rest". It's still one pilot sleeping on the job.....no matter how it is rationalized or cloaked.

Hence my characterization of "controlled rest" as a euphemism: "an innocuous word or expression used in place of one that may sound offensive".

If safety was our number one priority we would have a leg stretch pilot assigned when flying a long duty period through the WOCL, certainly those patterns identified as particularly fatiguing by ASR-F.

It may be scientifically proven to increase alertness levels, but at the same time sets up the real possibility that BOTH pilots may end up asleep...as the evidence of it in practice has shown.

Raven has hit the nail on the head.......If you need controlled rest you are minus one pilot. It sounds like a rostering problem to me.

and what progress have we made on this matter? Our previous AFTLs required an RP if the SST was 8 hrs or more as we worked through the night time period ........ now it is 9!! Progress indeed

This story doesn't make sense to me - there is more to it than is being reported.

The aircraft will not leave its cruise level unless the MCP ALTSEL is reset, or the Autopilot is disconnected, which would result in a loud and continuous AP disconnect warning as well as an altitude alert.

I believe some Indian and Indonesian carriers have FOs that are there just to fill the seat, and rarely allowed to do anything useful, like landing and taking off!

The report says she had to wake the captain and that he returned the aircraft to its correct level. Scary stuff.

And they thought they could get away with a 5000 ft altitude bust in RVSM without reporting it ??? And no official report by ATC?? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Raven, OK thanks. When did you leave the Airbus and which fleet did you go to? Also, if you were to use a non-euphemistic term for controlled rest, what would it be?

I find it somewhat ironic that we are all very accepting of the use of in-flight relief or leg-stretch, where the captain is in the crew rest area or a seat in the cabin, and here we are debating the pros and cons of one pilot taking a short nap at the controls to alleviate tiredness. Go figure, as our North American brethren might put it.

STP

Where the airline and the crew have done what would normally be planned or expected of them, but on the particular pattern/sectorn there is constant recourse to "controlled" rest then there is something absolutely WRONG.

Apollogies for the screaming capitals,but we cannot go on ignoring the REGULAR use of controlled rest on any specific sector/pastern.
The question remains..... who tracks the exceptional, continually dangerous sector/pattern. Is it the chief pilot or CSD or CAD or the individual captain.

If a serious incident were to occur on a sector that was prone to common and regular use of "controlled rest" - who carries the can? Is it the chief pilot because he knew about the "dangers/risk" of the sector/pattern or CSD or crew scheduling who were technically within the AFTLS OR the individual captain/crew on the day (particularly if they were to utter any comment about the tiring nature of the sector/pattern) at the inevitable CAD investigation.

Now, these types of sectors are actually being scheduled and operated or they are not. No point in fart arsing around. Either do something about it or else stop complaining.

What do you think????

OPS A states that crew are encouraged to submit an ASRF anytime CR is used. I personally MOR the event so CAD has a record of it. I really hope everyone else is doing it as well.

OPS A also states that CR shall not be used as a routine strategy and shall only be used as an exceptional strategy when all other countermeasures have failed. If CAD sees that a particular pattern has an extremely high event of CR then eventually the company will be forced to make changes.

So please fill out out those ASRFs and MOR the event.

Steve....I gave you a non-euphemistic term for controlled rest in my last post:
"Sleeping on the job". Here's another one: "cost saving measure".

Flap 10...I tip my hat to you....your most sensible post ever!

Flaps 10
I hate to tell you this , but irrespective of how many MOR 's you file the company decides which ones get forwarded to the CAD. The rest just get filed and CAD never see them .
So if you want to make sure it gets to the CAD send it directly to them by post it's the only way to be sure they get to see it and then stand by for your bollocking

Yes true, however the CAD does have a confidential reporting system in place. Perhaps that's what we should start doing.

for your info my last two ASRF which were MOR have been sent to CAD.

and did the CAD acknowledge directly to you the receipt of those ASR-Fs?

Oval,


http://www.cad.gov.hk/english/pdf/CAD382.pdf


you might want to read up.


You can always email [email protected] and confirm.


If the CSD emails you and tells you that the report has been submitted to the CAD it's safe to assume that it has been done. Yes they cheat and lie, but they're not blatantly that stupid when you can easily contact CAD and verify.

Raven

OK, the new paragraph caught me out. Apologies for not picking up on what I thought was a change of subject.

STP

Other points to consider
 

Yes, well, tis nice and all to MOR and ASR-F all of this, but how many people are actually following the Limitations imposed under preflight...controlled rest. 15 minutes recovery time, devoid of all responsibilities? There's like 12 operational considerations that go along with CR that are all pretty basic, but I think it's good to review how "they" want it done, if you're going to take CR and have CAD notified, it'd be nice if they come knocking to let them know you did it "by the book."

Most Airlines moving towards FRMS have controlled rest in their Part A. A lot of airlines / crews don't have sleep facilities like CX. There are no scientific studies to support 3 crews are less sleepy than 2 crews (without rest facilities).
Most Pilots I know would prefer to op 2 crew and have a nap under "controlled rest" than having to look over their shoulder to talk to a third pilot who is probbaly thinking WTF am i doing here no landing and tuning in to get the cricket results.
In many situations a coffee and nap will do you the world of good when flying through the wocl. There is also a lot of scientfic data suggesting that on short slips staying on local base time is the best method to manage sleepiness thus putting a rather big ? on the rostering of 18-30hr rest periods which were previously seen as taboo.
That said 16hr in a tube is beyond the wit of man so every sympathy/respect to the Nigels up front

I think most of the controlled rest occurs on flights with either two crew flying through their night, flights with three crew but no rest seat, flights with three crew but no lay flat rest seat.

Yeah great idea about staying on home base time. Depart HKG at 2000, arrive at destination hotel ready to get into bed at 0600 HKG time, next duty wake up is at 0200 HKG time. Wish I had thought of this brilliant idea 7 years ago :ok: