Controlled Rest
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Joined: Dec 2007
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From: HK MTR
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 198
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From: Hotel
I'll say more....
It happens now as a matter of course on every single through the night flight where I work. Wasn't the case 5 years ago - but since it's been legitimized by being written in the manuals its become SOP.
But its not a fatigue issue - cause fatigue is described as long term tiredness/exhaustion - whereas this is only " unexpected tiredness on the day".
Funny that I ALWAYS unexpectedly feel tired around 4 AM....although we tend to make sure the guy/girl that's operating/awake doesn't play Ipad games at the time...
It happens now as a matter of course on every single through the night flight where I work. Wasn't the case 5 years ago - but since it's been legitimized by being written in the manuals its become SOP.
But its not a fatigue issue - cause fatigue is described as long term tiredness/exhaustion - whereas this is only " unexpected tiredness on the day".
Funny that I ALWAYS unexpectedly feel tired around 4 AM....although we tend to make sure the guy/girl that's operating/awake doesn't play Ipad games at the time...
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,997
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From: Oztrailia
There is a time and a place for it.
How could a 777 in LNAV VNAV descend anyway? Why wasn't she keeping a normal Eye on things? Doesn't the Altitude Alert issue a Master Caution if you deviate from set level on the MCP?
So many questions, so much incompetence.....
How could a 777 in LNAV VNAV descend anyway? Why wasn't she keeping a normal Eye on things? Doesn't the Altitude Alert issue a Master Caution if you deviate from set level on the MCP?
So many questions, so much incompetence.....
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 507
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From: US
Controlled rest sounds like an oxymoron but a nap can be useful to fight fatigue.
Judging by the explainations of the event there seems to be a serious SA deficit aboard. How does it sound when one person stated they were asleep and the other stated they were busy on their tablet ? Must've gotten coached by Lois Lerner.
Judging by the explainations of the event there seems to be a serious SA deficit aboard. How does it sound when one person stated they were asleep and the other stated they were busy on their tablet ? Must've gotten coached by Lois Lerner.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: HK MTR
Well done. I think the two big issues with our industry have been highlighted in this article.
1 - Why do we need controlled rest? If the rosters where designed properly then this would not be required. Also in which manual can 'Control Rest' be found? If it is not in a manual is it legal according to CAD?
2 - Not knowing the individuals background but I would happen to bet that she was a low time (MPL?) type. Exactly how can you descend 1500' without noticing? ROD 1000'/min would have had a large power/bleed change which should have been heard/felt or a ROD <500'/min would have taken over 3 min, how often does she scan the instruments?
Not saying all new pilots are like this however we are tending to fly more and more single pilot which obviously does not work with a low experience/control rest combination.
1 - Why do we need controlled rest? If the rosters where designed properly then this would not be required. Also in which manual can 'Control Rest' be found? If it is not in a manual is it legal according to CAD?
2 - Not knowing the individuals background but I would happen to bet that she was a low time (MPL?) type. Exactly how can you descend 1500' without noticing? ROD 1000'/min would have had a large power/bleed change which should have been heard/felt or a ROD <500'/min would have taken over 3 min, how often does she scan the instruments?
Not saying all new pilots are like this however we are tending to fly more and more single pilot which obviously does not work with a low experience/control rest combination.
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Polar Route
AQIS,
That seems fairly obvious. I do the same. Anyone who is willing to take CR with a 200 hour wonder in the seat needs to get their head examined. This is just one of the many reasons three man Europe is a bad idea. The solo FO gets that crap rest period and is stuck baby sitting during the good rest period, ie his circadian low. If they want three man Europe, make it 2CN/1FO, or at a minimum 1CN/2RQFO. After all, that I'd the "industry standard."
That seems fairly obvious. I do the same. Anyone who is willing to take CR with a 200 hour wonder in the seat needs to get their head examined. This is just one of the many reasons three man Europe is a bad idea. The solo FO gets that crap rest period and is stuck baby sitting during the good rest period, ie his circadian low. If they want three man Europe, make it 2CN/1FO, or at a minimum 1CN/2RQFO. After all, that I'd the "industry standard."
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Usually Somewhere Else
"1 - Why do we need controlled rest? If the rosters where designed properly then this would not be required. Also in which manual can 'Control Rest' be found? If it is not in a manual is it legal according to CAD?"
Ops A
Ops A
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 504
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From: one country, one system
I can't recall a single incidident where I felt umcomfortable operating with a SFO.
Pure fabrication imho, they are well trained and highly reliable. Good lads as well.
Seems to be a case of "abused child becomes abusing adult" thing, in Cathay we love to complain about senior colleagues... and then go after the junior ones.
Not impressed.
Pure fabrication imho, they are well trained and highly reliable. Good lads as well.
Seems to be a case of "abused child becomes abusing adult" thing, in Cathay we love to complain about senior colleagues... and then go after the junior ones.
Not impressed.
Joined: Jun 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,238
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From: Eden Valley
You are very fortunate to have a Controlled Rest procedure.
At KA there is no such thing. So, with the ridiculous FTL's, you can be called out from standby, and fly a return sector to the sub-continent > 9 hours stick time, with the 23 hour rule in force due disruptions, and you don't even need to have a First Officer sitting next to you. It could be a recently graduated Cadet / MPL Second Officer.
Controlled Rest would be appreciated.
At KA there is no such thing. So, with the ridiculous FTL's, you can be called out from standby, and fly a return sector to the sub-continent > 9 hours stick time, with the 23 hour rule in force due disruptions, and you don't even need to have a First Officer sitting next to you. It could be a recently graduated Cadet / MPL Second Officer.
Controlled Rest would be appreciated.
Joined: Feb 2013
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From: here
Thats bull!!!!.
I could have 5 G's, then one 5 hour night flight through the WOCL, and at 3am I'm going to want to close my eyes for a bit. Don't blame the FTL's for needing controlled rest (other stuff maybe), think about what WOCL stands for.
I could have 5 G's, then one 5 hour night flight through the WOCL, and at 3am I'm going to want to close my eyes for a bit. Don't blame the FTL's for needing controlled rest (other stuff maybe), think about what WOCL stands for.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 552
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From: Hong Kong
Will IB Fayed
Controlled rest is a euphemism. It is completely unsafe and defies common sense. It is single pilot IFR in a large commercial jet. The idea that one pilot can sleep in the cockpit was instituted by management to forego three man crews. If you can't stay awake after five Gs there is something wrong with you....open the cockpit door and take a look at the faces of the several hundred passengers whose lives are in your hands.....go to the washroom and throw some water in your face.
The fact that it is unsafe is borne out by the stream of constant news stories about pilots that are falling asleep in flight while the airplane and passengers are careening through the sky, changing altitude or over flying their destination.
What about the flight attendants and the other pilot who must stay awake while little bear sleeps?
I'll never forget coming out of the bunk one night to see the "relief" pilot flat out in the seat with a pillow and comforter....
Unbelievable...!
Controlled rest is a euphemism. It is completely unsafe and defies common sense. It is single pilot IFR in a large commercial jet. The idea that one pilot can sleep in the cockpit was instituted by management to forego three man crews. If you can't stay awake after five Gs there is something wrong with you....open the cockpit door and take a look at the faces of the several hundred passengers whose lives are in your hands.....go to the washroom and throw some water in your face.
The fact that it is unsafe is borne out by the stream of constant news stories about pilots that are falling asleep in flight while the airplane and passengers are careening through the sky, changing altitude or over flying their destination.
What about the flight attendants and the other pilot who must stay awake while little bear sleeps?
I'll never forget coming out of the bunk one night to see the "relief" pilot flat out in the seat with a pillow and comforter....
Unbelievable...!
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,374
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From: Moved beyond
If you can't stay awake after five Gs there is something wrong with you....
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1
Likes: 2
From: nowhere
Will IB Fayed
Controlled rest is a euphemism. It is completely unsafe and defies common sense. It is single pilot IFR in a large commercial jet. The idea that one pilot can sleep in the cockpit was instituted by management to forego three man crews. If you can't stay awake after five Gs there is something wrong with you....open the cockpit door and take a look at the faces of the several hundred passengers whose lives are in your hands.....go to the washroom and throw some water in your face.
The fact that it is unsafe is borne out by the stream of constant news stories about pilots that are falling asleep in flight while the airplane and passengers are careening through the sky, changing altitude or over flying their destination.
What about the flight attendants and the other pilot who must stay awake while little bear sleeps?
Controlled rest is a euphemism. It is completely unsafe and defies common sense. It is single pilot IFR in a large commercial jet. The idea that one pilot can sleep in the cockpit was instituted by management to forego three man crews. If you can't stay awake after five Gs there is something wrong with you....open the cockpit door and take a look at the faces of the several hundred passengers whose lives are in your hands.....go to the washroom and throw some water in your face.
The fact that it is unsafe is borne out by the stream of constant news stories about pilots that are falling asleep in flight while the airplane and passengers are careening through the sky, changing altitude or over flying their destination.
What about the flight attendants and the other pilot who must stay awake while little bear sleeps?
Frequently, flight attendants have rest facilities as well by the way.