Joint statement from NC
 

Can someone help me to understand the joint statement? What exactly have we achieved after the mediation? No wonder the DFO reckoned the mediator did a great job. He just bought the company another month with no pay rise and no CC.


Man, Our pay negotiation is taking longer than the middle east peace talks!

Yes! I fully expected the mediation would break down and then we could officially go into CC under the GFBFA !


From the AOA letter dated 25 July


"the GC has also decided that it must prepare for the possibility that Mediations and continued Negotiations fail to provide satisfactory Agreements on Pay and Rostering."




Huh!?

Just had a chat to an AAOA Committee member who said the NC spent the five days talking about ROSTERING. No mention of pay in there at all.

Who's on this mysterious NC anyway...Two years with no payrise and your off on this rostering tangent.

This is insanity!

The sooner we have a new AOA president accompanied by some new hawkish blood on the GC the better....

Curtain??

And I agree, this very clandestine NC seems to be operating totally to its own agenda if the above is true. Just what is the remit between the GC and the NC??

I expect 'secret squirrels' from the company, but not my elected representatives!

We need an old crusty 747 captain leading the charge who doesn't give a shat about his job and cx.

I fail to see what is stopping the GC from simply saying

"Negotiations have failed, after an exhaustive effort. Contract compliance starts now. Any crew member caught volunteering for G day duty for whatever the reason will be publicly shamed and blackballed."

See how fast the company gets back to the table.

Thats it.

Its simple.

No if's and's or buts. Just send out the statement.

By the way, burnt an extra 1.6 ton on approach yesterday due to my poor handling ;).. what did that cost you Swire?

Good Faith left the building.

There is no more good faith. Saying so only helps them, not us.

It was tried. It failed.

It's simple. I can't see why we can't move on.

Tomorrow's goal.. to burn 2.0 tons off landing estimate @ TOD. Maybe even do a tire.

#armyofone.

sydneyman...#9

That is spot on.

TwoTigers

Grow up!

All that is currently required is that you don't answer the phone.

Being unprofessional is pathetic in least and encroaches on the dangerous.
What if you'd needed that 1.6T following a missed approach due to no fault of your own?

Is it just my login or is it everyone that cannot get the hkaoa forums updated since 041500 hkt.

Pprune is great. But the forums are important and I fear there is some manipulation going on..... Surely it's not just me that wants to comment about today's email.

You grow up Max Reheat. It's guys like you ruining this profession.

If I needed it? I already took 5 tons over CFP to screw them further. Its mine to burn.. Why aren't you gassing up and burning it? Perhaps you're management.


Answer my phone? It was a rostered flight. I turned up, gassed up, and was incredibly inefficient.

My not answering my phone doesn't stop gentleman such as yourself from working G's. Shaming and black listing does.

Thats the only solution.

Like I said, next step.. burning rubber..

Safety and efficiency will be compromised.

16 July twotigers

4 August twotigers

Is 1.6 tonnes (or is it ton?) a figure you've sort of made up because it sounds achievable somehow? I'm sure everyone would like to know how you achieve such consistency in your extra fuel burn. Oh, and how exactly do you plan to "do a tire"? Sounds to me like someone showing lots of PPRuNe bravado.

You have the nerve to accuse Max of ruining our profession when you cross the line by saying that safety will be compromised, presumably deliberately? In that war, you are indeed an 'army of one' because you can certainly count me, and I would hope the vast majority of professional pilots, out of that campaign. Shame on you.

STP

Steady Jizz.

After debating the merits of entering Maximum Safety Strategy, the GC, after realizing the current group of 'pilots' don't know their FTL's from their RP's, decided on another course of action.

Recruitment and training are at the forefront of the new industrial weapon. Minimum Safety Strategy.

"Team" and "Jizzmonkey" don't have to be mutually exclusive terms. Join in!!

So Jizz, you are saying that by saving the company money you will be a direct beneficiary of those savings? How does that work exactly?

Let me answer that. The same way the Caring award works.

Curtain
 

Hi Rod, yes why are we still waiting for your leadership?

TwoTigers - Your unproffesional ways are just that and will get you and maybe another into trouble oneday. While giving us a bad name. Perhaps you would consider toning down alittle please.

When the Taf's are stacking up take CPF and divert if needs be.

Clever and simple stratergies done in unison is all that is needed.

Its not the magnitude but rather the rate of change & renonance which tips the balance.

Only professionals are capable of synergy. Don't lower yourself to their level.
Never lose sight of who we are and the journey we took to get here.
First with the head then with the heart!
(Mix up that order at your & our Peril, team work and respect is required)

Sixth sense clearly demonstrates the AOA are wanting you to be in CC now already. It adds weight to the Mediation, and more so when it fails and they officially declare it.

Good luck.

"Never lose sight of who we are and the journey we took to get here."

That has got to be about the funniest line I have ever seen on pprune. What I once was, was a very competent aviator, doing an amazing job with friends and peers who just got the job done. All whom I know from days of old look back on those days with great affection. Who we were!

Who we are? Not even close to whom we once were in spirit, mentality or enthusiasm. That can't be undone!

SYDNEYMAN
 

I suggest you read the latest weasel words from BEEBE: working on a G day is ALLOWED by the contract, not that I have ever done so. Get your facts right before you launch into a diatribe! And maybe the GC can provide stronger guidance for the weak-minded.

It's simple.

For now, take CFP gas (adjusted for ZFW change) religiously just like the company wants--no more, no less. Operate prudently and by the book but don't look for helpful efficiency gains. If looking like below divert (most conservative figure) given delays and field conditions divert. Don't try to fudge things to make it or consider IFR if you are fairly certain of known ATC delays (which is usually the case).

If weather conditions given TAF require more then take more just like everyone always does.

DO check for messages when required then go comm out.

DON'T answer the phone if you don't have to.

DON'T work G days under any circumstances.

DON'T be helpful.

IF for whatever reason (especially a roster change) you are in a "gray" area for fatigue (i.e. on the edge of being too tired but maybe sorta could fly) make the conservative call, fill out an ASR-F and don't fly.

And wait for further escalation if it happens.

No company has ever become or stayed profitable with a bunch of stooges on board; conversely judgment and initiative requires adequate compensation and maintenance of same. If they want to pay for stooges they can have stooges.

Cathy need to close down and start again. A good dose of reality is needed in the ranks :\

The company is making loads of money compared to other airlines around the world. That should be our leverage.
Why should we concede anything?
I keep hearing 3-men long haul "because others do it".
The day the company is on the edge of bankruptcy is the day we'd have to start considering it.

If they are complaining about the lack of profitability, maybe they should have a look at all those price fixing fines.

Jizz,

Saving the company money will increase your profit share. You may get HK$2000 next year instead of $1800. That'll get you about 1 and a half drinks at a bar in SFO. Costing the company money will hit them in the only place that they feel it. Swire's bean counters will panic and the message will come from above to fix this mess. If you do nothing, you'll get nothing.

TwoTigers,

While I can appreciate your desire to do something, you come across as a buffoon. Smoke some tires? You've burned 1.6T how many times now? Judging by your join date, I'd bet that you're not even a captain and haven't burned anything other than a bunch of BS.

In one of the last News letters some Cargo guy stated that one extra Pacific sector cost about 500 000 US$.

Crew cost are insignificant. A payrise would be X % from insignificant.

This is about the ego of some managers looking for a bonus, nothing else.

I say the answer must be war.

May it be guerilla warfare or full frontal or both.

Laughing Stock
 

It is my understanding that many industrial unions & employee contract negotiators as well as tertiary institutions are starting to cite the "CX Pilot body & the AOA" as an example of exceedingly poor salary & contract negotiators.

As a professional group, the representatives of the Pilots at CX have demonstrated themselves as amateurs with little to no negotiating presence or ability.

Many now consider the Pilot representatives as a virtual laughing stock. With "negotiations" wholly consisting of bluff after bluff with no follow through whatsoever. On the other side of the table is a well briefed, highly organised & unified employer who considers the employee spokes party weak, easily manipulated & ineffective.

It is astonishing to me that the Pilots of CX would continue to stand for such treatment when the reality of their potential impact on their employer could be so severe.

So what happens when a "bluff" isn't a bluff?

I find it fortuitous that half the GC changes over in the next month. The company may find itself dealing with a whole different animal.

Time for a guy check boys and girls...

G-day workers
 

You need G-day workers!!

Everyone has the right to not answer their phones. I am not disputing that. However, for CC to be close to an effective industrial weapon, the company must see a change once CC is called. They also must believe that if they make concessions and get a deal, then the AOA will cease CC and they will see another change back to circumstances they find more favourable. Unless they observe change, then CC is useless as an industrial weapon.

For those that puff out their chests and write they are in permanent CC, whilst not disputing your right to do that, you are actually undermining the effectiveness of CC.

There is a growing school of thought that the first action of CC should be a "helpfulness" campaign that makes crew control's life as easy as possible. Once we are propping up the roster, well .... you can guess what happens....:eek:

I agree, Liam.

However, I think CC can still put the operations in a worse situation than they are now.

Just compare the situation of the last few months to what it was a year, or even six months ago.

It's unfortunate we even have to reach this point, because even if the company gives in, and offer us a barely adequate deal, most of us will still be pissed off and would continue to not answer phones, etc...
Bad (or good) habits are here to stay.

The managers shot themselves in the foot by not accepting a proper pay review last year. But what do they care? They'll still get a nice bonus and can then pass the hot potato to someone else.

You are absolutely right, Liam.

Edit: this was meant to follow Oasis' reply, but Rod beat me to it!

No, he's not. This fallacious concept has got to be kyboshed.

It's absolutely flawed logic to claim "we need G day workers". With every bit of assistance that pilots unnecessarily provide the Company, it enables management to kick the can of reasonable remuneration/CoS further down the road. Every time someone helps out, you generate a "virtual" SO, FO and CN, relieving the pressure of supply, despite their increasing demand.

I shudder to think how much better off we would be if it wasn't for the simple minded "I'm alright thanks Jack-the AOA hasn't said we're in C.C" group. You get the contracts you deserve. God only knows how much leverage we would have gained by now, how little the Company would have to work with, if it wasn't for single minded, short sighted guys and girls willing to prostitute themselves for a few lousy percent of G day callout remuneration, a couple of G days worked to improve a commuting roster, or an early CMD to satisfy an ego or basing requirement.

Next time you're p!ssing and moaning about why you don't have the pay rise which you obviously deserve, just think of all the times you've sold your soul to the devil for an ill-thought out, short term and ultimately worthless "gain".

We wouldn't be in the current quagmire of drawn out negotiations and Company prevarications if everyone just put the group ahead of their own selfish needs. It's not rocket surgery.

Even GC Members are "horse trading" rosters with the Company. It makes me sick to my stomach. Keep justifying it however - I respect those that actually admit they're doing it for selfish reasons. Just don't pour BS in my ear claiming that we "need" G day heroes and other self interested individuals to "gain future leverage". We need that like a Thai hooker needs a degree in astrophysics.

You're only fooling yourselves.

Rod and Superfrozo
 

You missed the point. Read my post again, I am referencing this solely in terms of the effectiveness of CC.

If you want to argue that no pilot should ever work a G-day because of overtime distribution or roster stability, then fine make your arguments, but that has nothing to do with industrial relations. You are also about 10 years too late with your arguments, because you signed a contract that not only allows it, but rewards it.

I put it to you, if nobody ever worked a G-day, nobody ever answered their phone or checked crewdirect before sign-on, then a CC campaign would be completely ineffective, because Crew Control would see absolutely no change in our behaviour. CC would give us no leverage.

Like I say, whether you approve of G-day working or not, in terms of CC effectiveness, you need G-days workers.

Liam,

If everyone did as you say, then we would have had a reasonable payrise LONG AGO, as the wheels would have already fallen from the wagon.

box

Box Jockey
 

No, if everyone was in a permanent state of not answering phones or checking Crewdirect, you would not get a payrise.

What would a payrise do? Remember, the company would realise that pay would have no effect as you are in a permanent state of not answering the phone. If they gave us all a payrise, would you work a G-day, would Frozo forgive you if you did?

You, frozo (who I think is on the GC) and Rod, need to deal with the world as it exists, not how you believe it should exist. The HKAOA has 2000 members out of some 3000 pilots. A permanent state of CC would just result in the non-members writing their own rosters and pay checks, and HKAOA members would be left with the dregs. I think over time you would see membership numbers decline. Now frozo, would "tut tut" and say they are putting self interest first, that is true, but remember that is why they are non-members.

If not answering your phone makes you feel better, then go for it. If trawling through Crewdirect looking for G-day works passes away the hours, go for it. But don't kid yourself that you are working towards a pay rise- you are not.

Now if the 2000 temporarily became the prop that held the roster up, and then the GC turned to the company and said see that prop, see this foot, see this phone with the SCMP phone number on speed dial.... Then you may get a payrise. But just like in 2010 the membership would have to promise to keep propping up the roster for a period of time to get the pay rise- it's called leverage.

You keep telling yourself that.

Trainers - Really?
 

Firstly, I'm not one. A thought - how far down the list of jobs do you intend to go? One may consider an L day worker to be out of order, or a G Day worker or a new sim profile tester etc etc, coming down some kind of arbitrary scale about which I make no comment. Can you extend it to trainers though? Where does it change from taking a job available to anyone to earn money to unnecessarily "Volunteering"? No-one is forced to become a Captain; are our colleagues who became or are becoming Captains now volunteering to help out? Think not, none of us would be here without the Trainers, it's just a job, give the guys a break.

Trainers? Yes, it IS a problem because they are training replacements who will do the same job on far inferior contracts. I would not do it under any circumstances... 8,10,12,15,18%. No amount is worth cutting off your own nose for! Those who do are both greedy and short-sighted.

You guys need to get off the crack pipe and step away from the furry wall!

Seriously, being a trainer is the cause of all our problems? Firstly, I didn't volunteer for anything, I was asked and accepted. The amount of reward I receive is certainly worth any extra efforts that I put in and bet my roster is a damn sight more stable than yours. Is it really enough? Do any of us make enough? When is enough, enough? I bet it's more than than you think it is. I'm not over 60 and still here...what's your excuse?

Please tell me which airline doesn't train new inductee crews on lower contracts? Any? Load of ****e! You expect me to quit my C&T job, so that PC's can expire just to make an industrial point for you? I don't work G days, I don't answer my phone and I don't acknowledge Crew Direct. Greedy and short sighted... Seriously? I do it because I actually enjoy doing it, despite the frustration of my ill prepared and demotivated colleagues who turn up time after time and perform like they have never seen the A/C before...Now that's pathetic.

Pick the correct target, I'm not the enemy and will not make a stand for the greater good. I'm on permanent CC and have been for several years.

All this ****e about accepting training positions is an old argument propagated by has beens and wannabes. Get a f"""""g life!

I seriously hope 'Curtain' isn't Roger Federer, that would be a great disappointment.

Kontract Killer,

How appropriate for you to use that name! You actually are killing your own contract with your work. You know it, we know it, that's it and that's all. Training guys and gals that put downward pressure on your own wages is just plain dumb.

You got one thing right though. I am a wannabe. I'd like to be trainer, but I would never volunteer for it (asked or not) under the current conditions. You are quite literally making yourself a minority as an expat on full housing. You will soon be outnumbered by those you trained to the line. What do you think the future of housing will be at that point? A scalers made the same mistake. How many of those are there left? Maybe you were/are one. If so, you're a really slow learner.

Forget about pay rises. Housing is the only thing we have which is even remotely indexed to inflation. Bye bye! Maybe it will be easier to get those tiny HDP driven pay rises once housing is gone. Whew, what a relief!

Tell yourself all those lies if it makes you feel better, but you need to get a f"""""g clue if you are believing your own BS.

What a load of crap kk:mad: As soon as you join the training department you've essentially become a pseudo manager. During any industrial action you WILL be expected to help the company out, no ifs ands or buts! You do recall how in the late 90s several trainers tried to leave the training department, only to be told that they would have to resign from CX all together. Sorry but you've already sold your soul to the devil.

Sorry to burst your little bubble but they ask everyone, not just you!

Bullsh!t , you do it because you want to boost your little ego by having the title Training Check Captain on your business card. Plain and simple :mad:

I don't begrudge any of the old training Captains because they joined at a time when industrial relations were ok. I have a huge problem with a lot of the young guys with barely any command time under their belt stepping all over each other to get into the training department. Tell you what skygod, that's even more pathetic than your ill prepared colleagues.

There are some ugly people in this airline...sad really.:=

Cpdude,

Ugly people in the airline exist for sure but thankfully in a very small minority. Probably about as small a minority as those who post regularly here.

Hugo