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QF redundancies and CX.
While the QF guys get screwed by their management it appears to be another win for ours right when CX is looking to hire more guys n girls at short notice.
Qantas targets 300 pilots for redundancy Qantas has started a major pilot redundancy program for the first time in decades that will ultimately target as many as 300 pilots it believes are excess to the financially troubled and shrinking airline's needs. The company has not specified how many jobs it will target in the first round, but it is believed to be about100. While it made initial contact with the pilots on Tuesday afternoon, it has not given them details on the redundancy package. Fairfax Media believes they will be offered one year’s pay. Pilots received the news via email from the chief pilot Dick Tobiano, who said that changes to the airline’s network and fleet that were part of its cost reduction program were responsible for the move. Most of those immediately targeted will come from the ranks that fly the Boeing 767 and B747, which are being retired early. In the first instance Qantas will attempt to meet its targets for captains and first officer retrenchments voluntarily, but it is unlikely to achieve this. Ultimately, it will probably move to involuntary redundancies. |
I don't think too many 60 year olds want to come to CX.
I don't think too many young A330 744 second officers could join as DEFO's either. Maybe a few may come to CX as S/O's but not unless they change the HKID criteria first. Don't think this is a big win for CX. |
QF International will probably offer voluntary redundancies first. CX's CEO David Downturn and DFO Little Ken, thinking that they had too many A-Scale pilots, did the same in '99 and the offer was oversubscribed. For those on second or third wives, there is QF Domestic, Jetstar, which is a part of the QF group, and the sand pit. I can't see many ex-QF Sky Gods taking up any CX offer, which is bound to be miserable at best.
Most will retire to the yacht, the winery in the Hunter or the farm at Bowral. |
nitpicker330
CX only in the last few weeks stated that they were going to restart the TT courses (equivalent to the DESO) of the past. There is no problem with HKID and the TT course. With potentially rated QF pilots this could be CX's saving and our sc***ing. It is only the Abinitio and possibly the Advanced cadet entry stream that has been blocked for non HKID holders by the HK Immigration Department. Posted from Pprune.org App for Android |
No offense to the young cadet and MPL pilots at KA but I would welcome "experienced" F/O's at KA. My opinion means little, but the experience gradients are cliff like, and an injection of well trained pilots would be a make sense in a rapidly expanding operation.
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SYD and MEL based DEFO. :mad:
No HKID issues. No LSL. No HKPA. |
HKG based DEFO on HKPA.
Easy and cheap way to crew up for the A350. |
Gents, you are mislead. Cathay doesn't have a shortage of applicants in the first place.
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Shortage of applicants? No.
Shortage of suitable applicants? Yes. A few hundred well trained and experienced pilots applying is a recruiter's dream. |
Excuse my ignorance but why would CX recruit DEFOs when there are 3yr S/Os on minimal housing lined up waiting for an upgrade? Would the course not be the same? (Assuming that the mythical DEFO doesn't already have A 777/330 type rating).
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Why??
There are but only a few upgrades who actually complete the conversion within the scheduled time. Unfortunately, the current average LUFUS sector count sits at 75-80 sectors. Some have gotten out to 120. Hiring experience that would get through in 40 or type guys in 25 would have the training staff on bended knee with clasped hands saying thank you. |
Why can't we in Cathay not finally, after decades of empirical proof, accept certain truths??
1) There is no shortage of pilots willing to work for Cathay. There never was and there never will be. 2) Any attempt to "dry up" recruitment ( via AOA-ban, warning posts on pprune, talking about "experience needs/ suitability of candidates" etc etc is bound to fail WE have to fight this OURSELVES. There is no alternative. |
Another bunch of hacked off Aussies! Just what Cathay needs.:ok:
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LS8C1 Excuse my ignorance but why would CX recruit DEFOs when there are 3yr S/Os on minimal housing lined up waiting for an upgrade? Would the course not be the same? (Assuming that the mythical DEFO doesn't already have A 777/330 type rating). |
Loving it...a couple pissed off skygods from the 400 straight to the 350...will see if the insurance will love that one too...
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AQIS
Have you been are for the past 4 months, loads of upgrades to Capt on 400 so those skygods can transfer across form the box carrier. Its not difficult to work out.
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Another bunch of hacked off Aussies! Just what Cathay needs. |
Don't worry about this hacked off Aussie coming and polluting the culture! I'll be go
Hey Brown Hornet..
If your not interested... What are you doing sniffing around the fragrant Harbor forum then??? |
The FUB,
A "skygod" is an Australian "know it all" QF pilot...not a 400 driver... |
It's not the employment bonanza you might think it is for CX. MOST of those redundancies are guys pushing 65 yrs plus or more. Some of them only do a medical and a couple sims a year and sit at home or on the yacht/farm at Barel ' cause QF doesn't want the image of these old guys/girls/gender undefined reporting to work in Zimmer frames in front of pax. So they collect the dough and milk IT for all it's worth. Not exactly CX material, and I'm pretty sure they won't be coming here or taking a brilliant BUT yet unnounced DFO AUZZIE PACKAGE.
Don't fret it. |
What are you smoking?
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Bob it's a voluntary redundancy, what makes you think these guys will voluntarily leave, it's not like they need the money. What's the point of quitting if you already sit at home on the yacht as you say? It's the involuntary that CX will dangle a correct for.
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Damn autocarrot!!
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Smoc, QF is not completely shutting down. There are still jobs there and will be for some time to come. Redundancies are for the redundant - in QF that's a lot different from what union and management would like us to believe. Like I said, it's not a bonanza for CX. IF you think so your playing into their game. Read the book. Sure low hour guys are abundant, experience is not. Are they coming? Me thinks not. It's really not an issue unless you allow it to be.
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330/340 was flown by the same FO's, seeing how airbus works 350's should work the same way so 330 pilots will probably fly the 350's
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Not for at least a year. The 350 will initially be a separate fleet until some sort of mixed fleet flying starts to take place.
The ex 330/340 guys will have a shorter 350 conversion course compared to the ex Boeing guys. But the spare crew from mid 2015 are most likely to be on the Jumbo. So my guess is that the 350 will initially be crewed by a handful of trainers. This will be followed by a mix of line guys from fleets "A" and "B". |
Bob all I'm trying to point out is CX is short of S/Os so much so they've re opened the 5 week get em in the door course. Any junior QF guys that think they're on the chopping board may think it's better to jump ship and be first in to CX, even if it's only 30 guys that's 30 perfectly qualified guys they would normally never get. CX is looking for over 200.
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Well I'd personally welcome any Pilots from QF as long as they joined in seniority order as Second officers based in HK, which of course they would have to as things stand today.
Then later on "if" CX open up Aussie bases AND they cannot get enough HK based guys to take a F/O base then I'd have no problem QF Pilots joining as DEFO's either to fill the vacant slots. What's the problem? |
Np330...agreed but none of my QF mates would join CX in HKG under the current conditions...
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DEFOs would be the problem!!
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So, CX finally re open bases ( dreaming I know ) only a handful of HK eligible crew apply and they then offer the FO empty slots to DEFO's.....
What's the beef with that? I imagine considering all the pent up demand for a Aussie base that "if" Cx were to open the base there would be more than enough FO's in HK to fill the base without recruiting from outside. We'd only be talking 20 or 30 numbers anyway. |
S
E N I O R I T Y Definition : Seniority (from Latin "senex", old man) is the concept of a person or group of people being older or in charge or command of another person or group, or taking precedence over them. Seniority is present in the most common relationships, between parents and children, siblings of different ages, and workers and their managers. See Classic of Filial Piety. Control is often granted to senior persons due to experience or length of service in a given position. When persons of senior rank have less experience or length of service than their subordinates, "seniority" may apply to either concept. "Seniority" also sometimes refers to the knowledge or skill that one obtains with long experience. A DEFO is the exact opposite of said "seniority" So, yes Nitwit, DEFOs are a problem! |
A few DECs and DEFOs but that will be about it.
You think, given our contract issues and the lack of resolution (or even bona-fide negotiation on the part of the company) that someone would bolt looking for something long-term here ?!!!???!! Stamp duty, compensation well lagging inflation, cost of living, punitive scheduling, etc. ? Not to mention the legal quagmire of hiring DECs and DEFOs again. There are other arenas (if one can suck up living in the middle east or China) with far more $$$ to be made as a bridge for something long term with promise. |
Just a few then.... :ugh::ugh:
Come one, come all, we take all laid off and newly unemployed pilots! Bonus, you are lucky, you can still hold your old seat! DEFOs and now DECs, why not! It's called a seniority list, where the new hires go to the bottom of the list, and then wait for the next available promotion. It would be great to have some highly experienced S/O's, and I am sure they would be a quick upgrade in 3-4 years time when their seniority number allowed them to hold a right seat. I sympathise for the people facing these problems at Qantas, but find it quite astounding that people would suggest we hire them as anything more than an S/O. |
I didn't suggest this at all--quite the opposite--in fact I hope contractually it will be prevented. But that's not going to be any of our call.
Just if previous experience predicts the future it is likely the company may well try it; or try to find a way. My opinion or prediction doesn't matter in what they might do and I see this as a realistic tactic which would open up a quagmire for everyone. Not sure I'd want to hire on in that position and that largely was the point of the post. I really can't see a windfall of people biting at it knowing what is going on--as such I don't really see the QF issue being anything of consequence to worry about. |
clear.right
I've been a strong supporter of seniority for all of my career. So you think a new joiner S/O should be given the right to take a basing as an FO even if he doesn't have enough experience to upgrade to FO? Aren't there experience minimums to upgrade to FO? All i was saying is that "if" none of the current eligible HK based crew bid for a basing then it should be opened to DEFO's BUT only if basings open up again. |
Yes, a 3 year, or 1 year "new joiner" S/O should get the base before any outside hires.
Experience - Not our problem. CX hired them, and will train them in our well respected training machine. If no eligible crew bid, the the spot should remain vacant until the next most senior person elects to bid for the base at a time of his choosing. If the base remains vacant, that means the pay for the base is insufficient and should be increased to an amount that will attract someone to fill that position. At no point should DEFOs or DECs ever be hired onto a base. To hire any direct entry pilot undermines seniority, and the terms and conditions for the current, and future employees on said base. |
Oh well I'm afraid that horse has already bolted, the precedent has already been set.
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So I suppose we might as well accept it, and welcome all with open arms? :ugh::ugh:
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Clear.right,
Read your contract about the 3 pathways to join CX. And don't think the requirement of having no suitable SO to upgrade prior to hiring a DEFO will slow them down. We fought that one thru the courts and lost. Cx have been hiring DEFO's for nearly 70 years. Can't see a reason for them stopping now. I'd guess only half of CX captains joined as SO's. The rest joined as DEFO's/Rapid commands over the top of SO's. I believe now days SO's get a seniority number. Be grateful for that win at least. |
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