Scab Notice
 

Print this and give it to a scab!

FREE RIDERS CERTIFICATE

I am opposed to all Unions. Therefore, I am opposed to all the benefits
Unions have won through the years: Paid vacations, sick leave, seniority
right, wage increases, pension and insurance plans, safety laws, Workman's
Compensation laws, Social Security, time-and-one-half for overtime in excess
of 8 hour in one work day and 40 hours in one work week, unemployment
benefits and job security.

I refuse to accept any benefits that will be won by Unions and hereby
authorize and direct the Company to withhold the amount of the Union-won
benefits from my pay-check and donate it to Charity, because I do not need
a Union's gains or my co-workers support in any way.

You can address the reverse Signature ______________________________
side, after signing, place stamp
and mail to the Local. Social Security # ________________________

Hey Bengi, you know any good trick cyclists? If you do I suggest you arrange a chat with them for yourself.

bengi25:

Is this the form used to apply for a waterfront job in Oz?

What makes a SCAB!!
 

THE SCAB

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.

A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.

No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.

Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a
commision in the British army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.

- attributed to Jack London

Rather be a scab
 

Bengi25

why do you expect the potential new guys to fight your battles for you, then insullt those that choose not to, seems to me that you are a spine-less bully.
HOW CAN YOU EXPECT A PILOT TO TORPEDO HIS OR HER CAREER TO SAVE YOU, WHEN YOU WILL NOT, OR ARE NOT PREPARED TO STRIKE TO GET WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF YOUR DISPUTE.

Get your selves a SPINE and fight your own battles, then people might follow YOUR lead.

As for your idiotic post about the power of unions GET REAL!!!
EVER HEARD OF MARKET FORCES

YOU WILL NOT EVEN REFUSE AN UPGRADE

If i am lucky enough to be offered a job at cathay, then I would like to see you bully me!!!!!!

Hong Kong is a great place to live; if you have friends!
Cathay is a great place to work for; if you have friends!

Why are you guys trying to convince us about your situation?
We are fighting for our and your future. Do not just think short term here!
We are here and we would not mind your company, but not just now! A lot of us have got 20+ years to go, so that is why we are trying to fight for something and not just let the company run over us and do what they want!

If we lose this, they will sack a number of guys everytime they want to take something from us. We will not even dare to ask for more, ever!

Well it does seem to be two sides to each story.
The basic facts remain, CX has shown itself to be a airline to now aspire to if you are only there to take the money and shut up or else well ask now over 70 guys what happens! Or more likely there is a large group of drivers who are dedicated to seeing a stable and fair contract which rewards loyalty and being professional.They are a group that has from 10 to 30 years left in the company and only seek a resolution that will prosper the company as a whole. The biggest worry is why does the company do such despicable underhanded things to a workforce that is so to speak at the sharp end of the buisiness? Ok enough ranting.

It is a fact that if a upgrade ban was put in place the company would immediately bypass the contractual seniority rules and hire direct entry commands(say from the freighter division to start with) combined with a more corrupt selection of "suitable F/Os". They would justify this by the militant HKAOA being out of step with reality. By the time it went to court (years as witnessed by the RP 2001 case) the damage would have already have been done.
Well the reality is ladies and gents is the union remains commited to a fair and just contract for all members, remains commited to the welfare of the 49ers and most importantly will remain commited to keeping a viable union opposing unilateral changes to its members contracts.
I have really tried to keep out of the vile posts from both sides of the coin here but lets face reality, we all have a choice the information is out there please stay informed, support one another and recognise that this is truly an attempt at busting the union.

God
 

Bengi, Maaaaaaaaaaaaaate

Cant' believe you're peddling the stories your Mum and Dad used to read you before bed.

Seriously check out Darwin's Theory on Evolution.

It may change the way you view things especially when you look in the mirror in the mornings.

I gave up believing those fairy stories when I hit my teens. I guess some people need to be followers.... baaaa

Bye the way, a good shrink is probably just what you need to help you out. Hope you get better soon.

bengi25

I don't really feel like writing anything to someone who takes such a counterproductive approach to those who ignore the ban. Your childish namecalling won't convert anyone to your point of view. Constructive conversation might.

I think you miss the point of what many think is so wrong with this dispute and ban. The Cathay AoA members are doing NOTHING effective to acheive their objectives. They are daily reducing the proportion of pilots who are AoA members. They have being legally out smarted by the company at every turn. They now ask junior pilots not to take (for many) a great and possibly only career break, whilst taking promotions themselves. Perhaps the new joiners would take the AoA/IFALPA ban more seriously if they saw the CPA pilots doing the same.

Unions in the past may have achieved much for workers. The AoA has achieved nothing and now asks it members to do nothing (effective or risky). If the AoA leadership (a core of 49ers) thought they could effectivly intimidate direct entry Capts and F/Os, then maybe there would be a promotion ban. Leave the kids alone! Give them a break, unless you are also prepared to do what you ask of them. I suspect another reason for the AoA not placing a ban on promotions, is that it would not work. It would be broken by enough of the membership to break the union....

Skippy,

YOU are not fighting for ANYBODY. You are insisting with threats and intimidation that OTHERS fight for YOU!!

Aussiefly,

How is it worse for the company to have to find S/Os rather than direct entry Captains? Surley it would be harder for them to find guys suitable for command than it would for them to find S/Os. Oh wait, I see. If they had D/E Captains, HKAOA members would have to make a SACRIFICE in support of their dispute. And if any accepted promotion in the face of an upgrade ban, you might have to label a FRIEND as a SCAB!!

Much easier to shift the onis onto a group of less fortunate guys you can label and bully with a clear conscience.

Clever.Not moral,but clever...

As to "Union Busting" tell me how a policy that means hundreds of pilots joining your company will not be eligable to join your union is in its' interests? No "Union Busting" required. The HKAOA is doing the job to itself!!

If I were a disunion leader I would advise posters such as Bengi to cease and desist. Their vitriol is doing their cause no good at all, au contraire. If they are this despicable on an open forum like Pprune imagine how they go on in Cprune. Having been victimised myself in my past I do understand how much they are hurting. Selecting another victim group, however, especially one so vulnerable as the young aircrew looking for an airline to join is not going to work. Everybody peck the weakest chicken. Matey, this is not a farmyard, nor the middle ages. When all the courses are filled - as they will be - the disunion will be that much weaker and the new aircrew will be protected. Change strategy before it is too late, cancel the ban, stop all action and change the committee. Then and only then will there be progress. I accept that I have been anti-union policy for some time now. The opportunity was there to regain most if not all the jobs of the 49ers. I want to save the union as an entity and instead I am watching it slowly and seemingly inevitably coming apart at the seams. I want my friends amongst the 49ers, and I have quite a few, get their jobs back. Not likely with current strategies being enacted by the disunion.

Wizofoz,

Skippy is not insisting with threats and intimidation, he is simply just presenting the facts. Just because that someone has a different opinion than yours doesn't mean that they threat or intimidate anyone.

Please don't try to convince me that someone who is fighting for his union is not fighting for anyone. He is not only fighting for the CX pilots but for all pilots in the world.

I have said it before and I will say it again, this is bigger than just CX, look at Lan Chile and Iberia where the management has used the same tactics as they have at CX, sacking pilots to bust the union. Unfortunately with a lot of luck at Lan Chile.

If the CX pilots don't stop it right here then all pilots around the world will be working under very poor conditions in the future.

It's very easy to say that the CX pilots should make a bigger sacrifice, and I'm sure they would if they had the labour laws to protect them, but unlike the rest of the civilized world, they don't.

Rod. Skippy is presenting the facts as HE sees them. This does not necessarily make them facts, more actually opinion. And, I agree he is completely entitled to express his opinion. I have a different opinion of the current situation. I do not call it an impasse by choice as there is no impasse. The company is in the much stronger position. Sure they fired, quite unreasonably, 49 odd pilots. And sure, they have been taking action against those aircrew they see as 'anti-management'. But at the end of the day this dispute (other than the 49ers) has been dawdling on now for eight odd years. The termination of our brothers was in direct retaliation for an increased level of pilot union activity. The committee must have seen it coming. To support the 49ers is a good thing to do, if, the committee really feels that its strategies will bring the company back to the table. It clearly will not. The dishonourable ban, supported by USALPA etc etc, is NOT supported by the aircrew body at large in the world. Why? Because it is a partial ban only, and those young aircrew ignoring the ban DID NOT take the jobs of the 49ers. AOA members did that themselves by accepting upgrades, and the increased perks associated with their promotions. Isolating these young folk is only weakening the unions position and strengthening the hand of management. It has been said elsewhere and is true, that those young folk refusing to come to CX are exactly the people who would support the union if they did come. Those that have come in contradiction to the ban feel alone and vulnerable - easy fodder for the spin doctors in management. We are not Lan Chile or any other banana republic airline, Hong Kong is a different place altogether. The bosses of big business here and the population in general will support the CX management position. My firm opinion is that the union is slowly but surely painting itself into a corner from where the only way out will be much greater industrial action by union members. Then we will have the three hundred and 49ers - and the company will survive. I plead with all moderate union members to resist increased militancy, change the committee, cancel the ban, accept the youngsters into the union and stop becoming what you say management is. IE bullies and intimidators.

RVE

OK, "Shorty was just stating the fact that newcomers will be threatened and intimidated". Better?

And as to "Fighting", my whole point is you are using others to do the fighting for you.

i have not been threatened or intimidated directly since starting with Cathay. my friends up here tell me it may be different when i start line training BUT bottom line is i have been assured that management will NOT STAND for any funny business (you hard ass union lads better check your vol 1) and that it will be stamped on immediatly. I have no desire to make enemies just get on and do my job as does the next lot of intakes. we did not take anyones job and are not crossing a picket line call us what you want but leave us alone to get on with the job we are paid very weell to do. thankyou.

So, you already know the Vol. 1? Do you know how easily this can be changed? I guess not, because you have not been here long enough.
You are a ******! So everytime something does not go the way you want it, you will report it? Is that what your future looks like? Stand up for yourself instead! You made the decision to come here.

I guess Skippy we will translate the asterisks to whatever we will, for example 'brave young man standing against an unreasonable ban', or perhaps 'worried young father and provider doing the best you can'. At the same time flying, maybe, with AOA members who have been recently promoted into jobs previously held by the 49ers. By having the wherewithal to post he is standing up for himself, and the many others in the same position. He should be in the disunion, he should have the support of his colleagues and most certainly he should report blatant intimidation and blind prejudice that might adversely affect him. By isolating yet another group in our company the AOA is doing a destruct job on itself. I believe some very brave souls have already been using graffiti as a tool of disunion pravda propaganda. My goodness, the disunion leaders need to take a firm hold of the artists before they do even more damage to the credibility of the AOA as a whole.

skippy 777 my friend i am entitled to work just like you. i don't think the company will change vol 1 for you just yet, why are you a training Captain maybe ?. did your Dad pay for your flying lessons because my dad didn't he did help my brother out for $2000 but that was wasted money thanks to a greedy union. i still owe money my friend but I will have paid it back after three years with this airline. I don't have a problem with my working conditions and pay. call me what you want but let me get on with doing my job and repaying my debt thankyou. i am not a dobber but if i am being hassled i shall report it as management has told us to do for better crew / management harmony and in the interests of Cathay Pacific and it's staff.

Skippy et al,

Have you noticed how the whole thrust of the argument has gone from being Cathay Pilot vs Cathay Management to Cathay Pilot vs Cathay Pilot? This is the inevitable result of the divisive, ineffective ban. If this was the only course open to you then the truth is you had NO effective course available. But this one is truley detrimental to your cause both by dividing your union, and making your workplace an even WORSE place to be.

In 1989 I watched the AFAP pursue a lost cause into virtual oblivion. Don't do the same.

Yawn yawn yawn.
One year a goin' and still no end in sight.

Guys, it's time to realise that the HK public have ZERO sympathy for you.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys. The company has won this round. You should put your ego and well founded rage on hold for a while. Your opportunity has passed thanks to OBL. Sit back and relax, support the 49ers (because they are your only link to credibility), embrace the new guys and rebuild your support base. If the company is as bad as you portray, then the new guys will learn that over time, and in time support the AoA. When the time is right, you can mount another offensive. You will be older and wiser from battle, and with much wider support than you can hope to muster at present. As a previous poster said, if you take a step back from it all you can see the company has totally destroyed you as a union in all but name. The fight is now between yourselves, no longer with the company. Learn from yours and others mistakes and come back stronger.

druck

well said
 

Well said Truth, but I cannot imagine any body giving you any greif, they wont have the bottle, cos if you grass them up, then their asses will be out of the door before you could say"gear up"
ENJOY!!! :cool: :mad: :D

To the union.
Your position is imoral. It is hypocritical and discriminates against those in the weakest and most vulnerable position. You are not right.
If I am lucky enough to be offered a job with Cathay I'll take it and be grateful. Unemployment bites!
Don't bother adding more self centered and materialistic dribble, I'll be washing the dishes.

Oh, that's rich!
 

Someone out there actually believes it when management "reassures" them of something ...? TSI, it won't take you long to figure out just what those "reassurances" are worth. Hope you like keeping your own company because even the cabin crew have got a hold of the scab list now.

One year, two years, five years from now, management won't care that you defied the ban. Someone who will remember will be your sim instructor or the captain giving you a line check. Do you know how easy it is to fail a checkride at CX? You will be gone, just like the last scab who lasted 5 plus years but is now reduced to whore for CI.

Turtlenest,

You pretty much epitomize the whole ban. It's all about bullying, isn't it? Failing someone who legitimately passed a check ride has to be among the most cowardly acts, or in your case, threats. Is this what the industrial strategy of the AOA has been reduced to? What an embarassment to the profession.

Oh, and what of the lip-service statements that new hires would not be threatened? Guess we're a long way past that now. So be it.

You may consider what you desperately wish to portray as "scabbing" a despicable act, but the people who accept jobs have more b@lls than you. At least they know about the wall of flack they might be walking into and accept it. The likes of you prefer to hide behind a ban and threats to those who "defy" it. How sad.

Thanks to your ilk, you've managed to turn my mind from fully AOA supportive (especially post-49er), to anxiously uncertain, to completely resolved.

Politely...F.U. When the call comes I'm in. Reasoned arguments I will listen to, threats just pi$$ me off.

Welcome to the real world. Pilots get fired for no reason, managers pass checks that you and I wouldn't and some guys just can't pass a check for love nor money.

Good luck.

PeterZee
 

Peterzee,

I was sitting by a campfire with my 10-year-old daughter the other day. I told her many time that if she kept on playing with fire, she would get burnt. Sure enough, it was the first and hopefully the last time that she got burnt. She can be excused for making a mistake that we all made at some point, but you have obviously made a very educated decision. Be aware that we have a lot of very angry people here that will dedicate the rest of their career to making YOUR life and YOUR career as miserable as possible. That is NOT a threat, that is a FACT. This will remain with you well after this dispute is over. Being a scab is for LIFE.

Welcome to CX and enjoy…

Hmmm, even MORE reason for the company to sack the lot....and start over with guys/gals that actually want to work....instead of whingers..
Cry babies....nearly all. Bo Hooooooo!!:p :p

Ah..."Hoffa"...the union leader with unsavoury friends:o

Hoffa,

You just can't get enough of the term scab, can you? Makes you feel morally righteous I suppose. Whatever drug works for you, sport.

I had to laugh at loud at your earnest claim that there are those who would "dedicate their life to making mine miserable". Gee, what a worthy cause, is there a special pledge and secret handshake to go along with it? It takes a lot of effort to hold onto a grudge that tightly, I pity anyone who wastes their life in such a fashion. Cling to the past, maybe it WILL return!

I first applied to CX in 1995, I've stayed "out of the fray" for seven years. If you can't make peace in that time it's not going to happen. So I'm grabbing my gun, (cover me), I'm coming in! Funny though, I never thought it would be fellow pilots I'd have to defend myself against. Great strategy!

"DIVIDE AND CONQUER!"

"Uh, I think they meant the enemy..."

i do agree with PeterZ .. Hi i'm back .. how r u BTW ? I feel that some of the comments or reasons behind all these scab and ban thing is just never ending and it also seems that the management is winning this time and it also might be a threat to the new joiners or those who are given an opportunity of a lifetime .. well , can you guys at the union guarantee someone who turns down the offer and get another guaranteed one when all this problem comes to a soulution ? i don't think so mate ! where i hope so too !

union vs. management

union = supprorts the pilots
management = runs the show
:confused: :confused: :confused:

How long can you prolong the ban ? and what else are you gonna do ? if i'm in STRIKE !!! i would say goodbye to the 49'ers guys i do not mean to offend anyone here but it's just my opinion and i think the best cx can do at the end of the day is to compensate something and that's it even the union is going to win ! just imagine that cx taking all the 49'ers back .. no way they're gonna do it dude !! common cow sense and use your head sometimes and stop using some stoooopid reasons by using the 49'ers and scab the new joiners as examples ... it's for your own good and mine too ... !! anything new ??? or just a better "improved" contract term for those who are still there and later on please do not forget about the 49'ers guys .. they get nothing only some compensation dude !

I may have offended someguys here and hopefully not :rolleyes: sorry to those if i did but i guess it's just th truth and thanks to those who agree !! :D

:rolleyes: most of you folks 'out there' are under the VERY mistaken belief that this dispute is taking place in a country that affords employees some kind of legal protection and/or enforces employer contractual obligations.....hahahahahahheheheheh.....thud!

On the contrary Blunderbus, most of the folks the AOA has alienated by the ban have never had such protections to any of their contracts prior to joining CX so your statement is not one which will deter.
Perhaps you and the AOA need some research on the type of people the AOA is alienating by the ban for you seem a tad off the mark.

Scargill a prominent union leader in the UK was leading a union with 35 000 members or so, when he retired after years of industrial action, a decimated industry and around 3 500 members his union stated that one thing dear Arthur didn't understand was that it was the unions responsibility to negotiate the best settlement possible with t'management before a settlement was forced upon them. It's a forest and trees thing really, unions don't have to always be anti-management, unfortunately many involved in unions don't understand this basic truth. Bit like oppositions in Government feel they always have to oppose whatever the Government of the day tries to make policy. At the end of the day if the Company fails then we all do with it. Unions with responsible leaders realise that the only way forward is in co-operation with management and the work force. Not like here where we have had more than ten years of ineffectual industrial action. More of a nuisance to management and a hurt to the bottom line really. Nothing has or will be achieved at CX until the AOA stops all action and comes back to the table with realistic propositions.

I'm sitting on the sidelines with this one, just watching what's going on. I've read a lot a of stuff on this forum, and a lot specifically posted by the AOA.

I was a bit of a rough youth, flying gave me an outlet and a big change to that life. Sadly, I wasn't as big as many of the other bastards, so I learnt one lesson the painful way - when you fight, you fight hard to win, or %*&# off....

My question is - if you are in a fight, then why don't you really fight?

(Pls spare me the arguments already posted - finding it hard to accept them. I'm looking for something new.)

:confused:

Well done Franky, an intelligent, concise point of view put across and with a strong defining rebuttal to finish.
I have done my fair share of flights with FO's like yourself Frank and have come to the conclusion that it is not your fault but that of the recruiting department so rest easy there young man....I do not hold you solely to blame.
As to your assertion, I am not, nor have I ever had a desire to display my plume to the management tune. You however do great service to the management cause with the juvenille reteroic content of your arguement.
Isn't it a wonderfull thing that the travelling public knows little of the maturity of some of those that inhabit foward of the door marked "Crew Only".

Bengi25.....good grief...anything original in your "repertoire" please anything???

Frankie baby, do you believe CX management are as dense as the union management? I can assure you they are not. They are quietly awaiting the increased action to be taken by t'union aware of the fact that around 60% of the aircrew will not be involved in anything which puts the futures of their families at risk. Add management pilots and others readily available to them and all they (management) will have is a cost saving as the union hot heads are identified and terminated. And like it or not terminated legally with three months notice or pay in lieu. Are you one of those who are waiting for the new contracts in the post? Don't hold your breath, unless you really wanted to of course, there is no need for new contracts. ! July came and went - where was the bogey man then? Only in your head my paranoid pilot.

As you may have noticed, Frankg has deleted all his posts and thrown the baby out with the bath water.
Guess logical discussion, when it turns against the reteroic of the day is just too much for you to stomach. Time to run a hot bath and take in the razor blades.
Cannot say I am going to miss your rantings ...Bye