Another degradation of our T&C
 

Rumour has it KA pilots have been offered priority 25 staff travel as part of their current wage negotiations.....

I suppose we will be offered 10 weeks leave!

All staff will be offered the same. Pri 25 on both airlines. Few benefits to the deal and a few negative also.

@Tonytylor

are you from lake Como???

As someone said earlier, Tony Tyler is a poor, unwitty substitute for The Management. I suggest that we collectively ignore his contrived remarks. I mean, completely ignore him.:mad:

Oh that is fantastic news, finally I will have a better chance of getting on the flights to Whouzhang or Nigshaziang. It is now harder for me to get back to Europe but so what.

So do we now PX in J with KA?

TT,

It's just not the same. Please stop. Cheers.

Will this apply to any airline Cx/Swire happen to purchase? What if they go out and buy, say, that basket case that is Qantas? Will they get staff travel based on DOJ Skippy? What about part owned airlines? AC? It sets a precedent for other employee groups wage negotiations.

Talking of precedents. Have a guess what DOJ will apply to a combined seniority list. I can see it now "Our IT can't handle 2 sets of DOJ depending on wether you're catching a flight to TPE or doing a 777 command upgrade"

Changes to staff travel.
Joker leave for whoever sooks enough.
Using inflation to give us annual (daily?) pay cuts.
Etc...

It is a constant attack on our CoS by stealth.

When PW handed over the GMA position he's advise to RH was don't just listen to the squeaky wheel. They've taken that advise on board. When they can't hear anything they're playing solitaire.

Time to make some noise methinks.

Rod,

Agreed mate!

Sad thing is that the majority of CX employees will just never wake up, sad but true.

Giving KA PRI 25 was right out of the Swire handbook, give them a small pay rise and give them a few token improvements that cost the company nothing.


We at CX will never learn. Can't even get the AOA to follow our wishes.

Sloppy, you forgot Shenyang and Chongching :ok:

Wanchai, any company that becomes wholly owned subsidiary of QF gets domestic travel based on DOJ and international based on rank/DOJ

Little late to fight this gents. When the KA freighter guys came over as DEC's they kept their DOJ for staff travel, ect.. This fight should have happened then. Precedent set.

Yes far too late to fight this. Lets, like normal, do absolutely nothing but whinge on this site and the AOA forums. Blame the GC, but do absolutely nothing as it is too late. Lets continue to work on G days, help out by acknowledging changes and talk the talk on the flight deck. Far too hard to stand up for our contract so lets all just accept that this is just another degradation to our conditions that we can do nothing about. Awesome!

Staff travel is not COS my friend.
CX could just as easily cancel it.

Well my friend, I see it as a reduction to my conditions of service. Housing, would also be a reduction, as would education if they decided to mess with those two policies. They could legally change these two items, should that mean any change should be accepted?

My COS contains housing and education and annual FOC. It doesn't include staff travel. Big difference. Our staff travel concession is a gift, if you will. Housing is contractual

Get over it ...
 

This is hopefully just another step towards combining seniority so that we can share in the expansion of the group. Later this year KA is going to run out of command candidates, and if I can dare to speak for my colleagues, I'd much rather throw open command opportunities to experienced FOs from within the group, than offering fast-track commands to new joiners.

I've just been flying with an FO who, in two years time, will probably get his command; his cadet course mates at CX probably have another 10 years in the RHS. I think that is the big issue which needs to be addressed.

Staff travel priority is small beer, but even if selfishness overrides fairness and good sense, KA are flying far more regional Asian destinations which should please all those weeping over this supposed slight.:ugh:

Mine too but it mentions something about in accordance with company policy. I am sorry to tell you but that means they can change company policy and it changes your CoS. Any degradation to our conditions should be fought, staff travel included. Yes I know it is not written in the actual CoS you signed, but like housing and education it is company policy!

Riiight.
 

Yeah, equal priority travel is really quite equitable. CX guys should just stop moaning. After all, who wouldn't want to go to Fuzhou?? I mean, come on - it has some of the nicest battery factories the world. And let's not forget Zhenjiang, twice voted "Lead smelter tidy town" by the PRC Environmental Awards group.

My all time favourite holiday destination though is Qinghai River: the bi-monthly rotting pig carcass surf carnival has to seen to be believed. The kids love it!

Imagine being able to access all that AND get a 'rapid command' in a KA A320, to experience all of these amazing places first hand?? Such a better option than visiting boring old Paris or Amsterdam. Total win/win for CX.

:ok:

With that myopic view frozo, the progressive degradation of your conditions will continue unabated. Have you also noted that Penang and Bali are now KA destinations? Don't worry, eventually commands will take 20 years, making that Paris and Amsterdam view from the left seat all the more sweeter.

I think you need to worry a little more about the future....not the past.

Plenty of LCC's to and from Hongkers these days, cheap cheap!

Who wants to be on standby anyway:= especially with a family or commuting.

Get a confirmed seat, check in online, pick up your meal from Burger King on the way to the boarding gate...

Any delays/snags - airlines problem! No stress, no rush, hell, the cabin crew even smile when you board!!

CX has cynically decided to remove our rank when applying for a JS....now I am 'mr' instead of 'Capt'. Ok, from now on I will only release J1 to cockpit crew. When you apply for a JS as a 'mr', email the Captain directly and let him know that you are cockpit crew and that you have applied for the JS. I will always check my emails first before I allocate to someone I don't know. There is obviously a direct attack against our conditions of service where it pertains to staff travel, and our only avenue of offense is to hit back where it hurts. No more JS to any manager or their family members, ever. :mad:

They even call you "MR" on your G days when they call and offer you a flight. However, you can plainly see if "MR X" is cockpit crew and what rank, when they apply for the JS.

...I stand corrected, you are of course correct about the way it displays on the request page. Still....after all the reductions to our staff travel benefits it is no wonder I thought the worst...!! :ugh:

That's always been my policy.

Are we merged now?
 

Oz2.

I agree with you on one point - the degradation continues. Now, the CX pilots have another degradation of their Benefits whilst KA pilots benefit. It's hardly rocket surgery why KA pilots are pleased with this eventuality. Someone mentioned an equitable arrangement. I can't begin to think how this is 'equitable'.( Why we're there no issues from CX Pilots regarding "equal Priority" with KA all these years?!)

Hot tip: the vast majority of CX pilots are none too pleased about this, just to put it incredibly mildly. My post may have been somewhat tongue in cheek, but please: DPS and PEN being on the KA route list hardly makes up for OZ, NZ, NA and all of EUR does it?? As for being elitist, ha. If that means wanting priority on your own airline for staff travel, then sure - I'm a regular Rockefeller.

Last time I checked, there had been no merger. This is a classic divide and conquer tactic from the Company, and now many CX pilots will struggle even more to get their own Airline's Staff travel flights with the recent two lots of policy changes.

As for working together as professional pilots, you absolutely have my support. If CX offered its pilots some of the KA travel fund, at KA's expense, you would damn well bet it wouldn't be acceptable to me nor the vast majority of CX pilots. It's not appropriate to rob Peter to pay Paul. That's all this is.

Don't try and kid yourself about it being more 'fair' and 'equitable'.

One final word of advice to the Pilots at KA, beware of Management 'Greeks bearing gifts'. Recent changes in CX staff travel have severely limited Pilots' ability to staff travel, and you may find trading away anything in your current Negs for this 'benefit' to be akin to selling the cow for some magic beans. CX cabin crew are now far more likely to "trump" you than you think.

Australia2

You took a job at KA over CX because:

A) better housing straight off the bat at KA
B) No S/O bullsh*t to put up with
C) Left seat in 3 years
D) short patterns
E) travel allowance so you can buy full fare to get home

And having avoided the downsides that are a part of a career at CX you only feel it fair you should get CX staff travel too? You've got all that and you want more and you want to call others arrogant?

Mate we all work hard, we all end up in some ****ty hotel spending nights away from our family. And before you do the "we fly into China, we fly into China, we fly into China" that my KA mates keep telling me. Bless them. Yes you do fly into China but that's the job you took. It wasn't a Cairns-Brisbane shuttle that relocated to Hong Kong 5 yrs ago.......

Let's be honest, none of these changes cost the company a cent. This whole argument isn't about KA DOJ for staff travel, it's about future KA DOJ for CX bases isn't it?

It's not all benefit - the whole deal is not just about getting Pri 25 on CX. It will affect a lot of people in other ways and it's not as popular as you would expect. It's been put to KA as voluntary and I reckon a lot of people won't sign up to it.

Dan
 

On the CX side of the road, we have been told nothing by the company nor the HKAOA.

To remove some of the speculation and mild hysteria developing in this thread, can you explain exactly what you have been offered?

I am also curious as to why you believe a lot of people won't sign up for it, what are the downsides?

Thanks.

It will cost them .5 a trip of travel allowance (11,000 HKD ish), some confirmed
Business FOCs, perhaps more bits.
They are not ALL enthused.

I am extremely disappointed the way this news is being received on this forum.

Back in 2008 all KA non flying staff were integrated into CX. We are talking a lot of people. All were given CX staff priority based on their DOJ with KA. There was not one whisper of protest from any pilots at CX.

The only KA people excluded from this were the flying staff.

Now after all these years of getting bumped by 19 year old office staff, CX has decided to address this anomaly and include us as part of the company. Amazingly the one group that is most vocal in raising opposition to this is our fellow pilots at CX.

There are less than 500 pilots at KA. at least half of them were hired after CX bought KA and as such have always been paid and worked for the CX group.

KA has been part of the CX " one team one dream" for 7 years now but only when it suits it seems.

As far as KA's destinations go the vast majority of jump seat requests I get are from CX employees ( admittedly there aren't many left at KA now). It may surprise you guys but there are a large amount of Chinese who work for CX who actually do want to travel to China. I'm sure they will appreciate the boost in their boarding priority. As well as the CX commuters from Phuket who are always after a JS. Plus the many CX cabin crew from Korea , Japan, Taiwan, Philippines India etc. KA is a regional airline and believe it or not most CX employees are from " the region" not everyone want to go to LA, London or Sydney.

As far as what's been offered. The barriers between the two airlines will be removed. Priority 25 on either carrier based on DOJ. FOCs on either carrier. ID 90 on freight ( we had this before but lost it when all our freighters went to CX).
Some of the down side is we lose the cost of an ID 50 from our travel fund. The big one though is KA recognizes common law spouses where as CX don't. This deal not only does not recognize CLS for staff travel But also takes away the medical benefit for the CLS they currently enjoy. Many of the guys with CLS have said they won't be signing over to the scheme as it's too big a financial hit for them. Many other guys are unwilling to give up the cash from their travel fund and would rather stay where they are and buy a full fare with the cash they saved.

Not sure what the take up rate will be. If you're married on a local contract then it's a no cost item and the take up will be 100% from that group. If you're an expat or have a CLS ( or both) then there is a financial hit. Each individual will have to weigh it up if it's worth it. Some will some won't.

To the DPA and it's members,
Be warned that whatever you are offered is for their Benefit and not yours.

Two tigers and Giggerty
 

Thanks for the sane replies.

Is this "deal" part of a wider deal on Pay and T&Cs or just limited to a trade off between Staff Travel priority and a portion of Travel Fund and benefits for CLS's.

Ps How do you prove someone is your CLS as opposed to a "special friend"?

Liam

That's a bit of a contentious issue at the moment.

The DPA have concluded pay negotiations with the company. Predictably it has come out at the lower end of expectations. It's a three year deal of 3% / 2% /2% combined with a rise in FDP. Can't remember the exact figures but it's ends up being a 75% increase over 3 years. So it works out around 4 ish % per year if you work your standard 110 hours a month.
The company wants a COS change for this. They want to stop new joiners swapping fleets within the first 2 years of starting. Unlike CX we can swap fleets every two years but no such restriction applies to a new joiner.

We have a meeting on the 30 th to vote yes or no on this.

The conspiracy theory is that we were offered the staff travel deal to placate us for the low wage offer and COS change.

My personal opinion is that the deals aren't related. Both have pros and cons. The pay deal is not guaranteed of getting through. There is plenty of debate for and against. Plus as I said before not all want to take up the staff travel offer.

As to saying your CLS is a special friend. The staff travel deal allows a single crew to have a travel companion, but there are the normal restrictions with that plus they still lose the medical.

Sorry, missed the common law spouse special friend bit.

In most western countries to prove you have a CLS you need to prove you live together and share finances. A joint bank account is a good start. Having kids will clinch it. This gives your CLS all the same rights a normal spouse, even in the case of divorce/ separation.

KA recognized this about 15 years ago or more. However neither the HK government or CX have entered the modern world and recognized the rights of a CLS. Unfortunately CX has chosen to take a backward step here and not take the opportunity to recognize CLS's like modern countries and companies do. It's the cheaper option not to.

Unfortunately those with a CLS are not only battling the company but the Government as well. It will be a long struggle I think

So the answer to Liam's first question is that this is still just a rumour?
I haven't heard officially that this is to happen. Or have I missed something?

Fact.

GMO offered it up about 14 days ago I understand.

Most KA *guys will be paying for the privilege of DOJ staff travel. The I'd 50 is worth around on average $10 k , and it's upto the individual wether they can justify that giveaway every year for a better priority and some extra bookable J class FOC on CX.

Personally I'd be happy to pay twice this to get my 20 years seniority recognized for KA DOJ staff travel. The arrogance of those CX white shirts on the bus from the p,aza after a few B scale beers has been a thorn in my crotch for many years. Now I can pick a flight with a few listed CX guys, with 19 years of service n say see ya in economy Loosers !*

Ah let's not get spiteful. It's the Devine right of all CX pilots from the day they walk out with their shiney one bar to take command of their widebody, from that cockpit middle seat .Complete with FCOMs and With their wobbly legs and stomach all butterflies. But hey the bravado on their return after spending a very rewarding trip to Paris or Amsterdam, alone in their rooms scratching their ball$, You are welcome to than. And I'm not even voting for the KA payrise. That's baloney . But bet CX get similar offer. 3/2/2 wow I'm loving it.*

And let's not forget the 1900 cabin crew who will get DOJ too. Welcome aboard !*

Giggerty
 

Thanks for the explanation. In terms of HK, KA's acceptance of CLS for the past 15 years was quite progessive. HK is still very conservative (with a small 'c')

Final questions- honest. Is the Staff Travel Deal separate to the Pay Deal? Would I be correct in assuming the Pay Deal is a DPA negotiated deal and it is before the DPA membership now to vote to accept or reject by the end of the month. I assume the Staff Travel deal is a separate deal and is down to the individual to accept or reject and once you accept, you can't go back.... Presumably, individuals have to accept by a certain date.

For the cabin crew or locally employed pilots I assume it's a similar choice, get DOJ but sacrifice CLS. I guess they don't have a travel fund, so the choice is more defined.

If my assumptions are correct, what's the date for acceptance of the Staff Travel deal?

trev

You Bloody Idiot. Belt up. Don't inflame the boy Captains on either side.


But really, what of the demographics of all this? Won't it benefit CX employees? Regional flying is going the way of KA according to scuttlebutt- Maldives and somewhere else next according to rumor.

Of our 500 pilots, only 150 at most are significantly beyond the ten year mark in seniority. Our cabin crew retire at 45 and the target employment for the last 10 years has been a group that don't travel terribly exotically- OK perhaps shopping trips to Tokyo but mostly they like Taiwan.

So CX employees over 10 years seniority are going to have priority access to a rapidly building regional network- some of it over their own routes. Well thought out from over the road I'd guess!