The AOA is falling apart
 

For those of you who are AOA members, you can see it on the AOA forum.

Reality has finally hit many in the face.

The company will give what it wants, when it wants, in exchange for what it wants. Period.

Union's/associations are only there to provide a false sense of security to the group. In my experience over the years in several different countries with several different unions, they are only an extension of the company itself. The graft and corruption run deeper than any think, unions, governments, companies. The only way for things to improve is to resign en masse, or to unify outside of a union message board. Those worthless boards have never produced any good change. It is another false sense of improvement. Venting on a board does nothing. The unity must come to the group outside of the association. The union is part of the problem. If it isn't evident now, after this complete leg sweep, you are truly blind.

The AOA is not falling apart. Take a chill pill.
You sound like fox news.

20 or so guys on the forum out of.......what 2,500 and you think it's falling apart!!

Still, interesting times.:sad:

The AOA is not "falling apart", it's been broken for years. Get rid of the 3+1 (PV, PW, GDC and DD) and we may have a chance!

How airline pilot negotiations really go. Don't worry CX pilots, with all of your divisions, this will be how it goes for you too. For some strange reason, as smart as pilots are, they NEVER learn.

I rather think a few individuals' brain are falling apart.

It's not falling apart, just needs re-directing. The more I think about it, the more I ask myself just what has DD done since he has been here?

Short answer?
 

Provided incredibly insightful and invaluable guidance, as to be expected from someone with a near-unparalleled experience in all things Aviation Industry related.

Including but not limited to:

- Bargaining Framework
- Negotiations techniques
- Contract construction and protections
- Media liaison
- Benchmarking
- Legal case construction
- Economic and accounting guidance...etc...

As usual, a PPrune arm chair expert thinks him/herself better than a veteran of the job. Are you John Cleese's character in this clip by any chance??

I give you this and you give me that and if you don't I will... I will threaten to work according to my contract... Got that? Threaten! 'Cause if I actually work according to my contract then you'll punish me and I'll get nothing. So I'm gonna threaten you! :ugh:

Soooo...
 

You don't already do basic contract compliance? What a surprise.
I guess helping the Company out and slagging off dedicated professionals is just a hobby then.

DD
 

****. Has no idea

Short reply
 

A good list superfrozo.

Now write under each of your points exactly what he has achieved compared to what I have (not) seen:

- Bargaining Framework - what bargaining has resulted in anything?
- Negotiations techniques - again, what results?
- Contract construction and protections - what protection (apart from Canada where he spat the dummy and walked away)
- Media liaison - I don't see any great press for CX pilots
- Benchmarking - really?
- Legal case construction - FO Bypass, SHP? When does construction give a result?
- Economic and accounting guidance...etc... - I'm now lost for words.

No reply to short reply
 

I'm still waiting superfrozo or don't you have a reply?

Not worth replying to.:ugh:

Who, soperfrozo or me?

He listed all the superlatives in defence of our illustrious leader and all I asked is for him to back it up with evidence. I'm not the only one asking these questions.

The evidence lies in the fact that the AOA has the best chance in decades to make up significant lost ground, not just on pay but working conditions as well. The naysayers will disagree, and they are right in that it could end up a real disaster as well. Our best weapon is not CC but high sickness rates. The company knows that if they don't strike a deal that the AOA membership sees as fair, then the sickness rates will remain the highest in the industry. So keep your expectations high and your productivity low.

I, for one, will not judge DD or anyone on the NC until I see what they can do in the coming months. They have the tools. I expect them to use them. Off soapbox...

Cool, all the "tools" the GC have will ensure that we do our 92 hours credit, for maybe 4% per year (maybe for 3 years)..... Still WAY BEHIND

The company paying our EO claim and finally signing an appropriately worded 25 year housing agreement would have been "good faith" items that we could have possibly postponed CC for. Instead, we have given into the company requiring officers to sign cos 08 to take a base because we achieved a very minuscule victory of not requiring BPP to be paid back. Maybe next time lets skip CC and go to MSS...... And only downgrade it if we get certain items... Like our 10 weeks leave back, and a normal 76 hour a month overtime threshold.

Instead, we now are being preached to by the union that PBS is good and we may have to give up some productivity....that is complete BS. Thee must be a common denominator in all of this and perhaps we should have an internal investigation in the AOA. Who has been in admin the longest? Who sold SLS and Cos 08 to begin with and why? Are they pushing forward the companies agenda today in the same way as before?

I'm with the AOA but wish we had hoffa's resolve. The 3rd floor is laughing at us right now.

Yes they are but a little bird tells me the AOAC won't let that happen and they have more power then many understand.

This is why we need to regroup with AOAC and not force our greatest asset to act alone. They are willing to work with us so what's our problem?

Before someone spews some vile about they can't be trusted, all sour grapes crafted by the HKAOA spin doctors, I urge you to look at ourselves and ask who within us can be 100% trusted?

This is who we are. A bunch of individuals each with our own ideas and visions of what "it should be". At least the AOAC works as one where we work as 1600 individuals!:ugh:

The Aoac negotiates with SK. You are telling me that after separating they want back in? Yes, having the two groups together would be great..... Are you going on contract compliance with us? What about MSS? When you do that, you are welcome back with open arms imho. no excuses. Until that day, talk is cheap.

Interesting to see how successful CC and MSS will work for us if that's what is decided. Probably the same result as the last several attempts.

airplaneridesrfun, have you asked the onshored Aussies if they can do CC and MSS?

The answer is, just as for AOA C, No they can't - because both are bound by law not to join in another's dispute.

CC is not joining in another's dispute. CC is not a militant action. Most employers would be glad to have their workforce upholding their side of the 'contract'!!

If you told any pilot in British Airways what this whole fuss surrounding contract compliance involved he or she would look at you with shear bewilderment. The idea of going beyond what the contract entails is an alien concept to pilots in most airlines. The very fact that we have CC in our lexicon indicates what a bizarre corner we find ourselves in, it's as if we have been brainwashed over the years into thinking that just working to what we signed is somehow bad and dragging ones feet! The level of Stockholm syndrome around us knows no bounds.

Of course it's falling apart.

Take the title, AOA, Air Officers Association. FFS! What a w:mad:d out, archaic title. Do you really think any corporate outfit is going to take any union or associate seriously?? Your in China. A brutal dictatorship, not a squadron tea club.

Dear Oval3Holer,

The AOA is an organisation for aircrew to try and improve their working conditions and lives and at the same time look after each other and their profession.

If you are not interested in that objective, then so be it...

FR

It comes down to a simple choice. Either you belong to the AOA, contribute to the debate and the overall financial health of a communal organisation that tries it's best to help the common good of the pilots, or you don't. Frankly, if you don't, you are nothing more than a freeloader who is too cheap to do the only thing available to us. I frequently don't agree with the AOA's position or methods. However, they are the only game in town. Either put up or shut up. I have zero respect for non-members. Don't cry to me about your problems if you are not a member. :mad:

Hey Benny,

At your age your memory is letting you down. Suggest you get back in the History Books.

An extremely weak and inaccurate comparison. 1/10 Must do better:D

Let's face it the aoa is not interested in improving our lot, when have they ever achieved anything for us of substance? All this talk of the aoa as a saviour is bollox, face the facts.

The AOA is not just interested in improving our lot, but also resisting CX efforts to worsen it. I can assure you, it could be a lot worse.

Furthermore those who have had welfare assistance and advice and those requesting representation during D & G procedures realise that there is more to the AOA than getting Headline pay rises (although that would be nice).

Merry Christmas to all.:ok:

Spot on
 

Busy B, well said. :D

Merry Xmas.

Many of these posts appear to be self-conscious justifications from non-members for not joining up and contributing to the common effort. The AOA are far from perfect as they are essentially a bunch of pilots ie guys like you and me, volunteering their time.

Some are based some are B scale some are F scale some have housing, they are all different and as a result have different opinions. However they have the ungrateful task or representing us against a fiercely cost-conscious management for whom we are merely cost units.

Being a member at the very least buys you a "right to whinge": if you're not a member then in reality you sit on the company's side of the table during any negotiation, and in truth have no right to complain.

Yes the AOA are far from perfect (as recent events have shown) but they are a heck of a lot better than nothing, and without the AOA to occasionally put up a fight, management would be running roughshod over our contracts even more than they already are (witness SHP claims, freighter PXing etc etc).

Merry Christmas.

Uh Oh
 

Word in the biosphere is the AOA has hired a Gen Sec that maybe worse than the last? What you guys/gals need is a former mob boss turned informant who upon release from prison became an attorney and knows how to "negotiate" (Read "Convince") people how things are to be done!

Or in the very least a New York lawyer who has experience in law and negotiations. Another ALPA lackey I don't believe is going to work for you fine folks over at green.

Is your president really trying to sell you folks in the AOA this rubbish? Hate to say this, I really do, but you guys/gals have a pretty ****ty association run by what appears to be ****ty leadership.

For the love of God and before its too late, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!:ugh:

Is it that bad?

Maybe the AOA should change it's name to The Kowloon Lodge.

I'm baffled. It is actually true.

Pilots are million dollar morons.

This Gen Sec we have just hired presided, and signed off on the worst contract ever imposed on any US Carrier to date. (US Airways) What the heck are we thinking? Don't we hire based on past proven results? Yikes. :bored:

Well said. I have given up hope of ever getting a significantly improved deal. Afterall, why would management ever agree to that? If things can be prevented from getting much worse, then thats a win already with this lot.

I am utterly amazed, at first I thought it can't be true but have we really just hired the guy responsible for the worst deal ever achieved in the US, a country with far stronger labour laws than here.

ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUC:mad:ING INSANE.
ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUChttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gifING INSANE.
ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUChttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gifING INSANE.
ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUChttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gifING INSANE.

First we get shafted by the Company with full consent from the GC, now we get a useless GenSec with a track record that would make the grim reaper jealous...

Am I seeing a pattern here?

And what's the membership doing? Fighting for those LHR spots like rotten scraps of food given to famished badgers by an Ethiopian zookeeper.
Where's the outrage?

It's all going to hell in a shopping cart and no one gives a crap.
Merry Xmas. (Now that I know what it means...)