As will FedEx I dare say. Although the unions are strong in the US it's never stopped companies laying off pilots when things aren't so rosy. I hope you have a great time in FedEx but I hope I don't read any posts from a disgruntled Mr elgringo on the Freight Dogs forum should you ever find yourself on furlough.

STP

PS. Why is it furlough and not furlow (as in sow)?

cxorcist, I'm not smoking anything, nor am I brain-dead. The section of my CoS (which isn't worth the paper on which it's written) entitled, "Promotion," states nothing about paying BPP to someone whose command is delayed due to DECs. BPP, according to MY CoS, is to be paid when a captain remains employed beyond the retirement age (or, when he or she is IN the employ of CX beyond the retirement age, regardless of when he or she was hired). So, unless a DEC (and I still say this thread is a wind-up) is beyond the retirement age, the company would have no obligation to pay BPP.

YOU'RE smoking something if you actually think that "seems they might have to pay if they go around that little tidbit" would ever reach fruition!

There is nothing in the CoS to protect us from, or compensate us for, DECs.

Oval,

I disagree. CDC (course deferral compensation) is for all practical purposes the same as BPP and a well established convention at CX when courses are taken out of seniority. That is exactly what aforementioned DECs would be, thus generating the payments.

Busy B, please weigh in on this...

Thanks,

CXorcist

Steve

Your post was disingenuous at best. Anyone going Fedex will enjoy real union job and contract protection. In other words they can plan with reasonable asurredness that they will move up in the company as others have. They will not get let go for a personality clash with a C and T or T, they will not have there benefits quietly eroded (maybe in a serious labour dispute granted) with no recourse, they will not have decisions made in secret with no accountability as to whether you upgrade or not, they will have some control over their rosters, they choose to work overtime or not, they can pick bases in a fair and open way, they don't get contracts forced on them, their SOPs are actually in the FCOMs, even if layoffs occur they will get hired back and eventually achieve enough seniority to beat any future layoffs, and even with a four year layoff would probably make more in total career earnngs than here.

Oh yeah Fedex will not hire direct entry Captains....
FG

Incorrect...

CoS 6.1: All newly recruited Pilots will join the Company at one of the following three entry levels:
a. Second Officers by the Cadet Entry Programme
b. Second Officers by Direct Entry
c. First Officers by Direct Entry
No mention of Captains by Direct Entry

CoS 7. PROMOTION
7.1 Selection
a. Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with seniority on the Officers' relevant seniority list...
This clause, now the FACA has gone, stops the "rapid commander" abomination from happening again

CoS 5.3 explains how new joiners are allocated places according to their date of joining - at the bottom

cxorcist,

I thing EDD has covered this comprehensively. There are no rumours of DEC's anywhere except on this thread which I suspect is just to try and stir emotions.:ok:

Thanks BusyB, but was I wrong about the CDC? Is that the right term and acronym? Would it apply? Perhaps not if they would be willing to disregard the CoS cited by EDD. Not worried, just would like to think we could stop DECs if they tried it on.

CXorcist

"Baseball hats in the gay bar"? I thought that place was tits up already. Or was that comment just a euphemism?

I wear my sunglasses at night...:cool:

So you agree that erosion of terms is a possibility.

I'm sure that the likes of Mr elgringo have taken this into their planning as I doubt that the potential 4 year lay off that you allude to later in your post, when Mr elgringo is stacking shelves at Walmart, will allow him to pay the mortgage.

I certainly didn't mean to be disingenuous but to rather point out the human frailty of dissatisfaction. As long as Mr elgringo goes to FedEx with his eyes wide open and his rose tinted spectacles removed then good on him - I wish him well, as I said before.

STP

Wasn't me didn't wear my shades in the bar, flight suit yes!;):cool:

So if brand new aircraft turn up and we have increasing routes and pax numbers but we dont have the skippers to fly them then they would park them up rather than get DEC? Because the COS doesn't allow it?

I am amazed that some on here would actually think that the company would do that. Well, almost as amazed as that some think they would pay bypass pay as a result.

Be careful what you wish for
 

There isn't a shortage of new commanders. They have and continue to go down the list to get to the next candidate. At least 30 and maybe more, have bypassed the Airbus to wait for either the 777 or the 744. Per Mr. Hau, this will stop next year and you will no longer have a choice. Take the command or don't. This is what happened to the S/O's, no more choice.

I think this post is a wind up as well but be careful what you wish for. If too many bypass the AirBus, for whatever reasons, what argument would we have against them hiring DEC's? No body wants it so we will get people that do.

Point-TAKE THE COMMAND OFFERED TO YOU TO STOP THIS!

That's an over simplistic view.
Most F/Os have a sliding scale of what they'd accept, from "I'll take the first command offered" to "I won't take a command until they offer me one in Aukland".
I'd wait a few months for a 777 over the 747 and about 2 years over a bus course. Most people I talk to would only wait about 6 months to avoid the bus and as you go down the list, the temptation to bring your command forward by a year if you take the bus is strong so I don't think they'll have to go too far down the list to fill places.
The last thing you want to be doing is a Cathay command course that you know deep down you don't really want to be on. They're hard enough as it is!

the current Command course difference is basically 4.5 to 5 months between 330 and 777.

This only is really occurring because no one from the 744 is willing to do their CMD course on the bus. Why would you with a 40% pass rate 744 F/O to ACN versus about 80 to 90% for 744 guys onto 777CN.

Five Green said it best. Anyone who gets a chance to go to FedEx or a similar outfit and doesn't either has some extra ordinary reason or is missing half a brain for the reasons mentioned... DEC or not. As if this place hasn't hired DECs in the very recent past?! They hired a bunch from Oasis just a few years ago. This is NOT a career airline for that reason alone.

Another reason you should know is that the work environment ( An "environment" is the whole of surrounding things) at FEDEX UPS, Southwest is far, far more relaxed than CX. That alone is a good reason to leave.......................

Oh for gods sake...either go to fedEx or stay here...no-one cares ....but either way, just make your decision, do it and stop complaining

Anyone who turns down a wide body command at a carrier such as Cathay is a complete and utter fool and ultimately deserves what he/she gets. One of the best pieces of advise I ever got from a highly experienced airline pilot was this: Never turn down a command if you have a choice. In this day and age, I can't imagine why anyone with a finger on the pulse of this industry would snub an A330 command.

flying phoenix...from someone who is about to be in a position to do just that , let me try and explain..firstly....for those of us on a base, we have a choice of one of 2 waiting games...namely, do we live where we want to and wait longer (or indeed indefinitely) for promotion, and the seat that we want on a base, or, do we go for the first command that comes up, live in HK, then wait until we are senior enough (or indefinitely!) to go back on a base as a captain....either way we have to give up something, and for some of us, giving up so fundamental a thing as a happy and contented home life for a one way ticket to Hong Kong, albeit with all the rewards a command would bring is just not a price we are prepared to pay ...especially if there are family issues involved . Also, if one does choose to return to HK there are absolutely no guarantee's of passing a command course...this is CX after all....and failure would mean the worst of all worlds...namely on a regional fleet as an FO living somewhere we would prefer not to, and unable to get back home on the base you were on before it all started....it has to be understood that there is huge jeopardy involved.....a CX command course is difficult enough, and to embark on one without being 100% committed that what you are doing is the right thing is foolhardy.

Sorvad,
Thank you for your explanation. I wholeheartedly agree with you under this scenario and from what I can gleam from your reply, you are not alone in having to make this difficult decision. In all honesty, if I were in your shoes I would stay put as well. The only thing I might add is that no one should enter a command course with the thought that he/she might fail. The fact that you and others have to consider this possibility frankly speaks volumes of the Cathay Pacific training culture. My response was aimed primarily at those candidates already living in Hong Kong whom might be waiving their opportunity for an A330 command because they would prefer to fly the B777 (who wouldn't?).

This always come up, was told last month by basings that your 'old' f/o base slot isn't available in the system until you pass the course. So if you come off base and fail you can go back on base on the slot which you hold until passing the course you came off base for. Make sense? You give up nothing by having a go at command. On the contrary, if you pass you get the chance to scream at your F/O 24/7 and dump your wife (as a skipper you're way too good for her now anyway):ok:

It's all about roster and days off, 777 has best roster by a mile for days off and variety and will have for at least the next 10 years. Take a 'bus command and you won't be able to get off it for 10-15 years. Live to work or work to live................

It is hard to comprehend how there can be confusion about whether or not one can maintain their current base in the event that they fail a command course. It does make sense however, that if you are upgrading on the same type that you are base protected in the event you command course goes south. If however, you are going from Airbus to Boeing or vice-versa I'm not sure how the company would deal with this. I get the fact that the B777 has a better route structure with a long and short haul mix, but is delaying a command for what could turn out to be years (if you get the timing wrong) worth the financial penalty not to mention the pleasure of 'berating your side kick' at every turn.;) For some it won't be, and for other is will. The point of this discussion surrounds the scenario that enough guy and gals decide to wait for the B777 until the company has no other option left but to recruit DEC's for the left seat. Should this occur there really is no one to blame, is there?

Phoenix,

I'm pretty sure they will not make it through all the qualified FOs in their search for Airbus captains if they keep going down the list. This could be great news for mid-level FOs who are thinking their commands are still years away... And just when the Airbus rosters seem intolerable, the A359 might offer some long haul improvement.

CXorcist

CXorcist,
No question in my mind that you are right in both regards, that is, there will be available candidates for the A330 as well as the A350, when it arrives, being put on some LH/ULH routes thus solving the rostering issues. DEC's into the left seat, I can't imagine, into the right..... perhaps.

Flying p
 

If you mean direct entry FOs then we have lots and will hire more.

CX will hire direct entry Captains again as well, maybe disguised as Air Hong Kong, or Air China, CX cargo, or maybe something new.

FG

FG,

Come on, Air China a DEC position for CX? I don't think so. Completely separate companies. Air Hong Kong? Things start to get a little hazier I agree. CX Cargo? Not so hazy anymore. The AOA has an unenviable task at having to deal with these CX spin-off's. In my opinion only, the AOA needs to protect the mainline carrier positions (I would include CX Cargo into this discussion) and nothing else. There are simply too many balls in the air for the AOA to try and juggle. They need to stay focused on the core group of guys. Now if CX was to start another passenger airline or heaven forbid merge KA into the equation that would open up a whole other can of worms.

FP

That's more like it, now you are thinking like a conspiracy theorist !

Fg

Sorry FP this is what the post was supposed to say....auto correct and beer don't mix !!

FG,
Huh? Did you actually read and comprehend my post? Can you show me where I am lying and conjecturing?

Easy see edit.....

Cheers

FG

FG,
Apologies, but I swear that edit wasn't there at the time I posted.:hmm: