It has to be said, sadly, that there's more than a grain of truth in hihi's argument. Perhaps that's why it's difficult to accept.

STP

STP, here's the point Hihi is making:

A Scale, B Scale, Freighter Scale, C Scale, D Scale, Cadet Scale. Eventually, when you're down to paying peanuts, you'll get.....

raven, I disagree. I think that's the point you're making. I think hihi's point was made quite eloquently in his last post and that is of the hypocrisy in the arguments made by many who take the opposing position in the debate.

STP

STP...excuse my poor attempt at irony.

I've long argued on this forum that by lowering terms and conditions, Cathay risked attracting pilots of lower experience levels. I stand by that.....and current Company policy to henceforth hire nothing but cadet pilots, I think, makes my point.

I'm not against hiring cadets....not at all....but in an appropriate proportion to experienced pilots. To do otherwise risks diminishing our experience pool.

Hihi doesn't agree. He said "Whats to say standards have taken a hit? Where is your reference for this information, or is it just conjecture?"..."a straw man".

Is he right?

An example of this kid's "eloquence" (from his first ever post):

But for recently his location status was proudly written as "selling out". Owing to his pragmatic and determination to be screwed over I labelled him "whorewhore". He then changed that location status badge of honour to this new one. Classy.

(Bold and underline done by me).

So, show BUT ONE post on this thread stating that? NOWHERE have training standards been discussed. The efforts and probable plight of the training Capts, yes. But nothing else. Yet again whorewhore you make crap up to try to justify a point.

See, this kid is your classic CRM lab rat of a fixation study. He has found something that appears to fit his needs and come hell or high water he'll force all information to verify that need: rightly or wrongly, no matter what sound, experienced or detailed factual information he receives. He doesn't want to hear it. He refuses to accept it. Great attribute for a pilot?

I did. As did many others who have "experience" and self worth. You won't because you don't. There's your "why" answered.

As raven has said and I have in many previous posts agreed that few people have a problem with cadets as such. I for one do not. The sanctimonious and deliberate, yet ignorant and naive excuses that are thrown out are generally pitiful in the extreme. His and his like's minds were already made up the second they saw "FREE" and "shiny jet".

Senior and experienced CX pilots are speaking of contract compliance and a training ban on iCadets, all over this C-Scale issue. Words only but they are being spoken. Other experienced pilots disagree but the fact is that people are talking about such measures either for it or against. THAT'S how serious they are taking it.

Standards?? A very well put example of sporting teams was mentioned. Imagine the toys being thrown from the cot if this kid's favourite sporting team/franchise have a record breaking salary cap to purchase players with. In years gone by that salary cap was used to recruit suitable talent & experience to win grand finals. And they were. Instead they choose to recruit players with ZERO experience in the game other than "I really, really wanna play!!" Then the managers of the team pocketing the masses of money not spent on recruitment. Oh! But the coaches are great! They'll bring them up to speed! Soon the coaching staff will begin quitting. (Ooops! Already happened at CX recently when a large number resigned!)

Argue what you will about A scale to B scale. But that shift did not lower minimum recruitment standards to ZERO hours, ZERO credentials and ZERO experience, least of all an insult of a remuneration package with a housing allowance that is not factored to CPI fluctuations. Sweet justice would be if the likes of whorewhore get Cat D'd and never see that $36k a month housing allowance and are living off the min housing allowance forever. I wonder what that will be worth in 10 years time? Oooops! Never thought of that either, eh?!! :ugh::ugh:

From piloting skills, to social skills, manners, judgement, temperament and basically just about any measure of 'completeness' you wish to mention, the majority of people being hired today do not measure up to those of 20 years ago. Don't have to like it. CX has hollowed the airline from the inside out. The consequences of that will play out over the next 10 - 20 years.

It's playing out right now!

蘋果動新聞 - 要聞港聞

Semantics, CB. Should have read simply standards, but the point still stands. Nice to see that an argument based on semantics is all you'll ever have though. Perhaps you'll start on my spelling and grammar next? Oh wait... we all remember what happened last time you tried that. You should try bringing some real meat to the table other than the same tired old crap.

Now, while your blood pressure is steadily rising, answer me this simple question - Are you on C-scale or B-Scale remuneration?

I see now that you try to apportion blame. Yes, C-scale does have its share in blame for bringing down the training standards. Where do you suppose that management got the idea to begin with? What proved to them they could get away with lowering the T&C's as well as the entry requirements? I'll give you a hint, the answer lies in your ABC's...

My God it's pathetic.

As mentioned countless times before & even in my previous post I turned the C-Scale offer down (twice). So to idiotically ask whether I'm on B or C Scale is just plain stupid. Read, comprehend..... Load brain before shooting mouth off. All be it the bullets are fired from a spud-gun.

Blood pressure? Nah... You keep trying to assert that. Relaxed & content in my decision & the basis on which I made it. Are the likes of you frustrationg? An embarrassment? The likes of you a good thing for CX & the airline industry as a whole? Yeah, that's annoying & insulting to see how low this industry has sunk, but that's all.

And yet again you state:
Odd how you again comment from your cheap seats about the standard of training that the check & training Capts provide in the air and the Training Dept does on the ground. True that initial induction sim training for SO's has been cut by 1/3 (or even 50%? anyone care to confirm from 12 to 9 but maybe only 6 sims now?) but you had no knowledge of that. You just shot your mouth off, again. Your first paragraph states you made an error, it should have been just standards, but then in the 3rd paragraph you again mouth off about training standards again. Your argument alone. No one else has mentioned that issue.

Let's face it you would take the job at CX if the zero housing policy was still in place & if the money was halved again: fixation. From your obvious level of research & comprehension abilities demonstrated here & other posts you would've applied to CX not having a clue about the remuneration package. Only that the entry levels requirements were dropped to such a low & pathetic level that it allowed you to apply.

In conclusion, we won this debate hihi.. they did the same thing (taking lower conditions) and now they dont want us too. They are just going to deliver rubbish posts and attempt to bury the evidence in pages of posts.

Finally, id like to say we are all pilots or aspiring pilots, and we should stick together and help each other in this industry. Your mental and physical health will improve dramitically.

Let's give it a rest guys and focus on something else.

No. Far from it. Greedy, immoral and selfish management tactics have "won". Ignorance and naivety have also triumphed at the expense of standards.

Both were just aided by a proven liar and a sell-out.

Hold you heads high! The irony is that neither of you have passed the interview yet.

I just wanted to see you admit that you were on B-scale, but you don't even have the guts to do that. You can speculate all you want about what you think i would do (and yet i haven't), but the only fact here is, is that you have already SOLD OUT. You accepted less than A scale and therefore you are not only a sell out, but also too much of a coward to accept it. Perhaps if you had a backbone, CB, none of us would be in this position today. How apt that you should preach of integrity - a word you aren't worthy of.

You are nothing more than a sad, insecure joke.

Fringe benefits
 

I wonder if CB will reconsider his offer from CX in light of the recent post"Oh, who's been a naughty boy then"!!!!!!

My God you're an idiot. How can I "be on" anything when I don't work there & turned the offer I was presented with down? That spud-gun of a brain is shooting dribble - again.

Perhaps there's an arguement that if the original B-Scale intake (first 12 months for example) had've refused the package then a show of force against lowered remuneration would've been shown. After that it became the norm. Yet, it still recruited from a VERY high standard & still the package allowed a pilot to earn a sound living, save, look after a family, provide for the unforeseen & retire securely. This C-Scale does none of that, something the likes of you endorse.

Bottom line: if those with experience didn't turn the offer down or the standards so low (well ZERO) you wouldn't be able to even apply. They are undeniable facts.

Ipuk: yeah very funny stuff. I would take that "job" but only if they changed the package to "BJ-Scale". :ok:

I would have thought the idiot was the one who thinks that A-scale, B-scale and C-scale are limited only to CX. Are you really that thick, CB? You say you work in this industry but i am starting to have my doubts.

Sell out.


Built4flying, i'd love to give this a rest but in all honesty, i think i just have way too much fun with morons like CB. Predictable, arrogant, and a bit thick. Too easy.

Again, shows your ignorance and idiocy - that's all. Not all salary packages are known as A/B/C.... But what the hell do you know of international airline ops? Not a damn thing.

But, what's the point? If I said I was on $20k USD a month, you'd offer to do it for $10k. If I was on $15k, you'd try to do it for $7.5k.... I could say "the sun will rise tomorrow" and you'll reply "I'll make it rise for less!!"

I haven't the need or inclination to prove myself to the likes of a desperate & ignorant sell-out. Call me coward? Wow. Interesting take on things. The sell-out calling those who didn't "coward". I've proved myself and do the job, and get paid accordingly. You'll never have that realisation.

But for the record I get approximately 7-8% more base salary than CX B-Scale, tax free. My salary is contracted to rise with min of inflation if that is above the contracted amount. The airline I work for has not in the history that I know of reduced remuneration, only increased it - because that is what they need to do to attract experience.

Nice bed-pal you have: a proven liar. Who's your charactor witness? Bashar al-Assad?? (Look it up).

CB
 

That's only half a story.

The C-scale salary is identical to B. Their 'housing' (HKPA) is, to all intents and purposes salary. It's treated as such, and need not go on housing.

Therefore, in the interest of embelishment, one could argue that the C-scale income is 30% higher than the B-scale. A nonsensical fact, I agree.

I'm not calling you out, but tell the full story, if you're trying to pretend that the C-scale, despite a huge loss of housing, is not still akin to the likes of FedEx, BA, KLM etc.

So, tell us what year FO you are, what your take-home is, your downroute allowances, your hourly duty pay, your overtime, what your pension contributions are, what contributions your company make, what your medical/death/loss of license coverage is, what your staff travel is like, who it covers, how much leave you get, how many days a month you work, etc. and lastly, who it is with.

These are what tell the whole story, no?

I sincerely hope it's world-leading. I mean that. My point being that you have never disclosed your employer, or your terms, but frequently bashed the C-scale, despite the fact that if you go through the above criteria, you will still find the C-scale being one of the top few deals in the world, which are non-'national only' airlines (eg Air France).

ETOPS: No agro, I know what you mean. The CX remuneration has always been about the housing. Otherwise the cost of housing and CPI influences, cost of living in HK, etc is just not worth it long term.

I was specific to mention my base salary. If you take the CX B Scale housing into it then it of course is not comparable: few jobs are / were. That was the appeal of CX - a long term secure future with a (once) reputable airline. The money and reputation or trust just isn't there.

The per diems and housing are fixed into the contracted package and increase per year, as mentioned. The salary depends on the contract chosen regarding work schedule. The general and basic option is as I have stated. All I will say is that I get double the CX holidays. If I request to change my contract to work more, I get more, work less then of course the same result. As such and comparing to my mates' average (FO) take home salary per month, that is the figure.

My job? Not going to say. Aviation is small circle around an even smaller globe we drive about. I trust you can appreciate that. If people wish to do some research then finding this information out isn't overly difficult. Some months I fly as much 95 hours, others as little as 40 a month. Same tax free salary. Top level health insurance for myself and partner are fully covered and paid for by the airline.

C Scale is no where near a world leader for reasons other than salary alone.

So no, they are not precisly apples and apples. But having the option, which I do, between this job and CX then I am in a far better long term situation. (The Cmd thing has also been discussed previously). Give me a more financially secure future with career progression over a non CPI factored housing allowance and an airline with a disgraceful work place relations history then my choice was simple. I refuse to be part of the race to the bottom. My experience and what I went through to get it is worth more than CX can offer at present.

(It is a breath of fresh air to have a decent discussion).

Wasting your time, ETOPS. CB has his head so far up his ass he can't see the forest for the trees.

CB consented to lowering T&C's across the industry when he signed a B-scale contract. He hasn't the balls to admit it though. Instead, if we are lucky, we'll get another speech where CB feels yet again the need to proclaim what a bastion of integrity he is (HAH!). It would appear his insecurity is in constant need of self reassurance.

Sell out, hypocrite etc...

You have got to be the most illogical and stupid human being on the face of this earth. You accuse / ask me if I'm on a "B Scale salary" and I say no. The question isn't even relavent to to the airline I am with. By joining I did not lower or accept the lowering of the job standards or remuneration as it has never been lowered since the beginning of expats working here. Yet you persist with pathetic accusations despite being answered. Narrow minded and ignorant.

You asked, I answered and then you say I didn't admit what YOU want to hear. Sell out? Yes you are. Imbecile? Proven correct. More over, you're just a a solid f^chwit.