CX Sponsoring Illegal Pilots
 

The flight department has finally discovered that most of the Canadians based in the US have been working there illegally for years and are trying to make things right with the US government.

They are now paying $50k USD per Canadian captain to get them US visas that will eventually lead to them getting green-cards.

Another example of inequity amongst the pilot group, and lack of respect for US employment law. I wonder how long this will be allowed to go on before the US pilots revolt and start sending off emails to US ALPA, ICE, government officials, etc., about foreign workers being brought-in to take American jobs??

Discuss..

Or chinese jobs...

Soooo, i'm a Canadian captain based in Canada. Some of my fellow Canadian colleagues are going to be sponsored by CX to the rare and valuable US Green Card...? Ok, so, I would like that same benefit thanks. I am sure the company is keen on being seen to be fair. Please Mr. L, where can I pick up my application paperwork? And of course, seniority will be honoured in this case as usual....right? A few other questions to follow....

(...um, how do the REAL Americans in the company feel about the precious US base slots being filled for many many years by Canadians....and thereby keeping those properly entitled out of their own county's base....? just wondering...)

What about the Americans on the Canadian bases

Employment Without a Work Permit

The following are additional examples of employment in which a foreign national may engage within Canada without the requirement of a work permit:

as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;

Standby while I break out my hauberk. Now if I only had eyes in the back of my head?

Hi Moose

The statute you're quoting is aboot irregular employment, as in aircrew in transit and so on, not permanent employment on a base, resident or non-resident in Canada. I am pretty sure that the intent of the law wrt crew in transit is definitive, eh.

I guess you could always claim "natural person" status and unencumbered by national laws.

Oh yes, that doesn't work.

Hey Mooseflyer

The law does not apply. You are not employed by a foreign employer but rather a Canadian, the onshored CX, as far as the Canadian authorities are concerned. Why do you need a Canadian SIN, had to fill out a T1 and receive T4's? Why are you responsible to pay CPP and EI? Don't be confused with how CX onshored, because this is causing all the problems at the moment. The only reason why this is not an issue at the moment is that the Canadian immigration authorities are not aware that these American individuals are employed in Canada as the CRA does not forward this information to them.

Apple

Where did you hear the 50k per captain for a visa? The number I have heard is not even 5% of your claim!

I read the title of the thread and thought you were talking about Mexicans....



Sponsoring Canadians in US bases...pisses me off. I'd love be based in Toronto and fly the 777. But... CAN NOT since I am US Citizen, and YES I have the Seniority.. Fair? I think NOT.

It is strange since there are a bunch of DEFO's (US and junior to me) that are in Toronto... it is all a mess.. Seniority means NADA...CX does as it wants, when it wants, how it wants..PERIOD.

So where do I sign up to get my Green Card?

huh??? Where are you getting this info from???

I thought to keep a green card one has to reside in the U.S. I doubt most of the Canadians are willing to move their families south.

Haha, yea, you're right....why would you want to live in Phoenix when you could live in Edmonton (in January!). Seriously, CX lurches from one fiasco to the next, and all the time messing up the lives and finances of it's own employees. The ONLY requirement is to cover CX's own ass. When are we going to make a stand against ALL the gross violations of our career conditions, and the ongoing assault against our financial security. As it stands now, I am expected to pay full tax in both Canada AND HK. What little gem will the basings office throw our way next?:mad:

For the same reason they left a tropical climate....it aint home!!!!

Why can't they just move to U.S. guys to U.S. and Canadian back to Canada...I know some might need to change fleet..but the training cost is lot less than what they are trying to do....

HDFU CX is a prick of airline to work for, if you decide to work for it expect 3rd world working conditions it's in China!

I'm afraid aviation is supply and demand now, don't expect anything more from CX it's no longer a Legacy carrier.

you want my base!
 

This is the first time I've posted here after observing this forum for years. I just couldn't let this one fly without comment. First off we need to distill this discussion down to what all the complaints directed at the Canadians is all about. This isn't about the legal issues or how the company could of set things up differently, this is about jealousy plain and simple.

Apple 314, how long have you been here? I've been here for 17 years and based in LAX for 11 and commuting to Canada. The company had me sign up for an ITIN an American tax payer identification number and I file along with every other Canadian based in the US every year based on a percent of time flown in US airspace and from there a tax exposure is determined, so go ahead and approach the gov authorities, sorry to disappoint you but it's already been done, I guess you won't be able to take any pleasure by exposing all of us (Illegal workers) and by the way you wouldn't be the first American to contact the authorities recently to pursue personal gain. In addition what has changed recently since you joined Apple 314, were these policies of allowing anybody on any base within Cathay's network not in effect when you joined and suddenly all these snowbacks have come down and taken your job, of course not, many of us were there long before you even heard of the name Cathay, you just don't like the conditions you joined under and are now having a hissy fit trying to get them changed and trying to screw me an my family for personal gain.

Before you start throwing numbers out (50K) due your homework and go talk to the basings manager the figure is 2500.00 usd but you we're close. If it makes you feel any better I'm a young captain and I'll have your coveted base for another 20 years. I've provided you with all the info you need to identify me so feel free to contact me or should I just wait to have your government official arrest me the next time I pass through immigration. This all seems to be a all to common theme on pprune, if you don't like the conditions you signed up for blame someone else for your poor decision making.

If you look into it a little further, there are criminal and monetary penalties if a Crew-member does not have a C-1 and D-1 Visa AS well as if the crew-member makes false statements to the immigration officer. With a green card, the Canadians will have to finally pay US tax. Maybe this will lead to triple taxation for them. It would be nice if these violators of law would be required to return to Hong Kong (both US citizens in Canada and Canadian citizens in the US) and the bases rebid in seniority order. That would solve everything.

As with the Amsterdam base situation, I think, the company is doing the right thing, to make sure the Canadian guys can stay at their US bases. I'm a US citizen and possibly affected by this, but come on, there are more important moral issues at hand here. To do something by choice is not the same as being forced to.

The canadian guys took the bases when they were available to them and under the premise, that they will be able to commute to and from work. They have done absolutely nothing wrong.

Given that assurance, their families have adjusted their entire lives and to take that away -just because some government buerocrats changed their mind- is just plain wrong.

I would expect the company to do the same thing for me and my family if it was the other way around.

Some people on this forum are talking as if seniority is the "holy grail" of everything. It might be so for the initial bidding of a base, but once based, many other criteria come into play, seniority being just one of them.

That is how it works everywhere in the world - except the USA. Personally, I believe, the US style seniority system is nothing but a form of ponzi scheme, that has helped to create unprofitable Airlines, resulting in equal dissatisfaction amongst airline employees, passengers and shareholders alike.

A system with no winners, except the few with tenure at the top of the seniority lists.

Any illegal being harbored at CX should be given the chance to return to HKG immediately, or find other employment. Then a massive new bid can take place throughout the system in order to rectify the current issue. Those senior enough to hold a base in their home country can certainly take any position available, and if an aircraft type change is required, use their joker. I guess then we would really be able to see how many Canadians are in US bases, and American's are in Canadian bases.

If you are telling me that those pilots violating immigration law throughout the system have done so without understanding the consequences, then I would respond to you that they should have read their contract and the basings agreement before bidding on a base. I realize these guys have families; so do I. Not only are they illegal, but they are not contributing to the tax base of the US government - something that those US citizens in HKG that want a base would be happy to do. Kind of like hiring a Mexican without a green-card as a nurse, when there are plenty of US citizen/green card holders that may be looking for a nursing job.

CX managers and CX are liable for harboring these employees as per the US immigration regulations. If they are not careful, some manager may be surprised when Swire does not come to bail them out; and some pilots may be surprised when the US government informs them that not only are they forbidden from entering the US and it's territories, but also that they owe $300k in back taxes, fines, and fees.

For those that are worried; look at the law, don't make excuses why you are special and can get around it. It's not going to be fun if you show up at work in the USA 5 hours before your flight, only to be informed that you are being deported.

If all the Canadian Captains would have to vacate their US bases and these 45 slots would be made available for bid, most would be not filled.

Most Americans at CX are not senior enough to hold a Passenger Command. Proof me wrong, but last time I checked there are not too many Americans with a seniority # in the high 900s. As we all know all new command positions are within seniority offered in Hong Kong. Only captains or when commenced the command course one is able to bid a base slot.

In reality this means that most of these US positions could not be filled if offered and these flights would be crewed with Hong Kong crews.

Plain and simple.

GTC,
Please tell me how you check who has what nationality to 'proof' you wrong on your statement that there would not be enough US pilots to hold US passenger commands? There are enough US FO's that are on BPP and extremely close to command to fill any gaps that may ensue in CX's bid to comply with the law. There also are enough FO's and possibly SO's waiting for a slot in certain bases around the US. There has been a lack of slots available for bid in the last few years in the US bases, and pent up demand remains.

Airplaneridesfun

Just an educated guess, as CX was not hiring too many Americans until 8-9 years ago.

you said
My Basings agreement says the following:

Doesn't say anything about my base.

Anyways, your interpretation of the law is incorrect at least according to DL and CXs immigration lawyers. Presently it is absolutely legal to commute for Canadians to the US, employed by a foreign company, operating foreign aircraft. However, when a visa application will be made (like CX is doing now) and the INS would deny issuing a visa then it becomes for the Canadian individual illegal to be based in the US.

I don't understand where this sudden anger is coming from. Most of the Canadians are on their US bases for many years. Nothing will change with the visa application as these are for Canadians already on a US base.
The Americans working for the onshored CX Canada are actually illegals plus seem to be on the bottom of the seniority list and I recommend you try to write your posts not so confrontational as I can see some of my Canadian co-workers getting pi$$ed off and tipping off the Canadian authorities. That wouldn't be nice as we are all seem to get along on the line and in the bar without having any issues.

On a side note these Visa's are for Canadian nationals only, if you have another nationality you are out of luck.

airplaneridesrfun,

It seems you want to use a machete where a scalpel is more appropriate. I believe the goal should be to create as little as possible pain.

Sorry, if your personal agenda is being altered by this (so is mine) but as I said before, there are more important issues here. Seniority is not the only parameter here. In life sometimes you give and sometimes you get. Maybe it is now the time to give. Over the longer term, everybody will be happier.

Agree with GTC58, there is nothing illegal about commuting to the US for work, as CX is a non US company. It certainly did not appear illegal, when the guys took a base.

FedEx has a base in HKG, UPS a base in Germany and all these positions are filled with US guys. I don't see any Germans protesting and claiming entitlement to these jobs.

Avius, your mention of Fedex having pilots in HK is a bit deceptive. The significant difference is that Fedex ONLY hires US citizens, thereby making the verifiable claim that due to US law they have to have those people flying their aircraft, no matter where based. CX however has already demonstrated a prima facie case that they can and have hired US citizens where needed. Therefore, to claim that the US based Canadians are 'essential' has already been undermined, as they have US citizens ready and able to do the job. An immigration court in the US would quickly see this argument.

Air profit,

The last time I checked, HKG was not part of the United States, therefore US law is rather irrelevant.

Point is US pilots are based in many foreign countries, despite the availability of local pilots, thus taking local jobs. The policy to hire only US citizens is nothing more than protectionism.

Ok Avius...just ignore my point entirely if it makes you feel better. :ugh:

Air Profit

The first visas are already approved. I guess the INS has a different view than you. You can complain all you want, but that will not change the outcome of the visa process.

Really....i'm still waiting for mine....

...that would also presume an outcome based on what US immigration was told during the application process. I do wonder if they were made aware that there are many US citizens ready to fill those slots other than a/c type issues to be resolved. It will be interesting to see how certain 'enquiries' of the process will work out over coming months.

ps. I really am waiting for a visa...so i'm hoping for the best...but a top $ immigration lawyer that I engaged tells me that this won't work. Time will tell...but I sure don't want to move my family to the US if it is only going to be unwound later....

Air Profit

You have a point nobody knows how CX is spinning it. I don't think any FOs will be approved for a visa however talking to DL it sounded like captains are no problem.

If you don't think you get a visa are you ok with being forced back to Hong Kong?

First of all, there is not doubt that the Canadians have been knowingly working illegally in the US for years. Their regular place of business, where the majority, if not all of their work originates, is the US. When crossing the border, they are specifically prohibited from engaging in employment, which they chose to ignore. However they and the company try to justify it in their minds, it's still illegal, or why would they now be applying for, and paying alot or money for: WORK VISA'S.

Im sure the company hasn't provided US Immigration with the entire truth also. They are claiming that these captains are "essential" to the operation and that no other suitably qualified US citizen can do the job. Obviously a bold faced lie. If you think that because one or two have already got these visa approved that its a sure thing, you are mistaken. US Immigration is just a small insignificant pawn in this game. Do you think any Congressional Representatives know about this? Senators? Local media outlets looking for a story about the pillaging of American jobs to Canada? Think Customs and Border Control has any idea of foreigners coming in and out of the country under the radar to operate Large Airliners without proper documentation? Think ALPA lawyers would say its okay for foreign pilots to be flying out of a LAX base claiming that no American can do the job? Do the Teamsters know that US based Canadians without visas are operating internal flights: ANC-SFO-LAX, MIA-DFW, ATL-MIA, etc? What about the California State Tax Agency, who also claims a ~10% tax on World Wide Income for California based jobs? Ever reported to them with your tax waiver Sadde6?

Though it may seem otherwise, my anger is NOT directed at Canadians, it is against a morally corrupt company, that shows favoritism to some, and utter disregard to others. Just like you Sadde6, I have a family to look after. The company wont allow Americans to have a base anywhere else, but allow, promote, and now assist others to come onto the only base we are capable of getting. Just as you said, you got my base for the next 20 years. FO pay aint going to cut it that long. So just like you have to do right for your family, I must for mine.

The company AND the AOA(dont know why i still pay dues) have tried to keep this quiet and out of sight, for obvious reasons, but if we are to make this an equitable environment for ALL our pilots, then this cannot be allowed to go on. This isnt a vendetta against the Canadians, its a call for change and equality for the pilot group. For those senior who want the base, for those who would like to get a visa paid for and organized by the company, and also for my future. How many "exceptions" should be allowed? None. If so then everyone would claim a right to one and keep screwing each other.

So if you agree, then email your Congressman, your local news station, the AOA, the company, US Immigration, US ALPA, the Teamsters Union, California State Tax Agency, Obama, let them know how you feel about this issue. They all love a good cause...

(by the way, thanks for motivating me Sadde6, I was happy to just discuss this and vent a little on PPrune, but now you've inspired me. see you in LAX, if they open up the base that is)

Apple 314,

So lets get this straight, you want to use every possible method conceivable to remove guys with 10+ years of seniority over you off a Base so that you can have it? What an absolute piece of #$@% you are!! Kinda like that other well known freighter weasel and his escapades.

You can be inspired all you want, it's unlikely you'd get through a Command anyway.

Let's put this in perspective a bit shall we. Imagine that the Sydney base was full of Americans....who the company is now going to get visa's for because the Aus govt has just said that they need to be documented. Then also imagine the Australians still stuck in HK are told that the base will remain full of Americans...and probably block the base slots for the next 10-20 years. No, I can't imagine that the Aussies would have a problem with that at all.

Right. Now why is it SO UNREASONABLE for most of us to think that this situation with the US base is a travesty?? :mad:

I should add that the fact the US Govt has insisted on proper visas should be the point that the company says to those concerned that the gig is up. Time to go home, wherever that may be. If the US Govt has an issue with 'documentation', then basically it means they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Whether they have '10 years seniority' or not is irrelevant. How can ANYONE justify the company undermining the 'ownership' of a particular base slot against the interests of that country's own nationals. Imagine if they started doing that to other bases, there would be howls of protest. This issue is NOT going to go away quietly....I am sure of that.

Apple

you said

If you go on the USCIS website and research the conditions attached to the L-1A visa you will see that is not a requirement to receive the visa.

Don't forget you work for a foreign company.

Playing Devils Advocate.

If we assume that guys are taken off bases at conflict with their nationality the next steps would be:_
1) Does CX declare a vacancy there, if not ( a possible surplus already) then no-one else will get the base until it is open again.
2) If a vacancy is announced it would be in seniority order and, if for a Captain ,he would have to have the appropriate citizenship. If no suitable Captain then it would have to be operated from HKG as a N/S.

There is no agreement for out of seniority commands to satisfy based Captain vacancies.

Personally, although I think seniority should be the final arbiter this thread is tainted by spite and vindictiveness which does not bode well for any consultations with CX.:*

No, it's not 'spite' and 'vindictiveness'. It's the fact that the company is once again playing fast and loose with the career expectations of a particular group of employees. The value of a base is a tangible thing, and to deliberately undermine the criteria of ONE base ONLY, in favour of a group of individuals against the reasonable expectations of those who by birth have the right and desire to be there is outrageous. As I said previously. I would like to be based in Sydney....so i'm sure it will be perfectly ok for the company to obtain a visa for me, and then I will block that slot from a HK based Aussie and his family for the next decade or so....? Seems fair doesn't it. Forget spite and vindictiveness.....how about just moral outrage? Good enough for you. I can assure you that this issue is going to be finding it's way to EVERY interested party until this CRAP is stopped dead in it's tracks. If you can't see the inherent unfairness in what's happening then you must be a Canadian based in the US.

Tornado Ali

All these Canadians are on US bases for many years probably even before you got hired. What is changing you career expectations now with them getting visas???? Just curious .....

The difference is prior to the NEW RULES, I had the opportunity to go and bid for ANY base, just like the Canadians are effectively still being allowed to do in the case of the USA. I no longer have the opportunity to bid on any other base, therefore my ONLY basings option is my HOME country....and that is now being LOCKED OUT by people that shouldn't be there UNDER THE NEW RULES. Not really that hard to understand....other than by Canadians who sense they have possibly won a lottery ticket.

Another point: If I was an American on a Sydney base, and the Aus govt now came along and said only Aussies or documented workers allowed....it is highly likely CX would NOT go and get a visa for me. They are only trying to do this because they have a bigger problem on the US bases, because they allowed so many non-americans on the base. I don't think this issue will go quietly....as there are too many Americans who are being marginalised by this decision. Effectively, CX is helping a small group of employees 'steal' a very valuable asset from people who should rightfully have an expectation of moving themselves and their families back home. It would be nice to be able to have my children live near their grandparents back in Denver....but apparently CX thinks that not only should Canadians take up the Canadian bases....they should also lock up all the American ones too. Yea, I think i'll just roll over and let that happen without a fight. Letters and visits to certain politicians offices will be the order of the day going forward.