Bragon Air: Out of Control
 

Soooo, GMO Cpt Bi-Polar is cracking a hissy fit at Bragon Air cause Cpt Toss and others have struck a nerve...

One question for the scared girls on level 2:

Why is it hitting such a raw nerve? Gee, could it be we are talking the TRUTH?

Oh yeah, we're onto your little scam...

And while you try to search for my IP Cpt Bi...let's be serious, after knowing how you operate, do do you really think I'm that stupid to not hide it!

Enjoy the video and see the delusion that is Bragon Air :}

http://youtu.be/2wiKPhIJ1z8

Every other industry in the world is subject to harsh criticism in the form of blogging and forums etc. The reason the KA club have their knickers in a knot is because they have been immune to it for so long and now people are willing to speak their mind. CX are used to it it's like water off a ducks back for them they have been tyrants for eons!

What they forget it is although the criticisms were harsh like most tabloids or blogs, but the words alleged and rumored are often used that doesn't imply 100% guilt.

The other thing is from a management perspective they also have a right of reply and the right to use this forum and counter the allegations posted here. In the end this is also about free speech the truth and a just system.

IP addresses can not be handed out willy nilly, it's against the law and you need a court order. If pprune give out peoples addresses without the order they are liable.

The other thread was deleted obviously BUT it did touch on some issues that are bothering the crews at the moment - if the management could pull their heads in for one minute they may want to address the issues rather than resort to their usual bullish tactics of LETS STAMP THESE GUYS OUT.

KA the guys are pissed and you need to resolve your internal issues.

That said if there is something fundamentally wrong with the system then you should speak your mind and air your grievances - the industry is going to **** and we cop enough crap already.

PPRUNE is owned by big business in the USA the law suit capital of the world you cant give out peoples IP until their is a court order through a criminal investigation.

People in high profile places are open for criticism and allegations, they also have the right of response if they chose to exercise ..... I mean Berlosconi has flat out denied ... what about you muppets? How about a response?

That saying if it takes to go to court to uncover weather or not these guys have been abusing their power then I feel it's worth it. Especially when it's been alleged that they have been continuing to try and ruin peoples careers even after they have left the company.

Through data access request from solicitors and the labour department the "real references" are able to be uncovered and they will be. Despite the fact that I advised the DPA of this and they never replied - MAN UP DPA :mad:

Yawn .... my coffee is going cold.

Nice video!

DPA man up? :}

Good one Toss...these babies running the show at the moment, are wanting to get into management. Like the video says...no backbone in any of them!

They are perfect for level 2.

Numero uno at the DPA will be all upset now that someone has spoken out against him.

Well instead of crying about it...do something, actually fight for your colleagues. Speak up about the low life's running the circus and their intimidation tactics over the crews...

When was the last time the DPA did any sort of reasonable job at that?

Boo Yahh, if you think any of the Dpa committee have a remit to alter or comment on Ka management behaviour on anything other than industrial issues you are sadly mistaken.

Clearly level 2's behaviour has set a new low, remarkable given their predecessors. Previously they've stayed just above the ethical line while still being less than average peformers. I'd really like to know how you think the Dpa can address this.

They should get their lawyers and the labour department to thoroughly probe the allegations that senior management are vindictively destroying their ex employee's future job prospects by slandering them on the phone when called by potential employers ie: TAG Aviation in Hong Kong.

They should also get their lawyers to probe the FACT that despite the numbers not adding up on various housing allowances some pilots were allowed to stay and others were fired.

They should also get their lawyers & CEO to probe the allegations that senior management (may have) breached the housing contract.

Guilty until proven innocent it's the CX KA way!

Why else pay all these sups for all these years and when it's crunch time they sit back like a bunch of spineless bitches and do nothing ... man up DPA

may have?

I thought you were certain Toss? Aren't you defaming people?

Why did the housing investigations stop cold?

One for Simon Parry but don't waste my DPA subs on expensive lawyers.

Last thread got deleted :{

Need to play by the rules I guess ... I got carried away and was using the standard Fragrant Management Rule of : Guilty Until Proven Innocent

Shame on me ... I'll use standard tabloid wording from here on in

"May Have ... Alleged .... Rumored .... a source close to ... anonymous insider" .... Ohh that's right it's a RUMOUR NETWORK :D

Ok we'll get average lawyers instead unless you're in the Sh%t and then I bet you'll want a decent one ....

Outie...Cpt Toss is on the mark...there is your answer.

You guys have a chance to get this place under some sort of order, and yet you sit by and let it happen.

Clear the cupboard and get rid of the cancer that is on level 2.

Make the company something, Bragon once was one of the most desirable airlines to work for in the world. Now it nothing more than a cheap hooker from the streets on crack.

What a legacy these pricks have created, they should be ashamed!

And Then...need to read up on defamation. Firstly, no one has been named outright. Secondly, defamation is not recognised in HK.

How could the DPA address this...wellll:

- They could actually make their voice heard, instead of sitting back and cowering to gross management tactics.

- They could be investigating why pilots are flying around at KA with threats over their heads from mgt. You think this is safe?

What happens when one of these threats from mgt affects a guy on the line and something does go wrong? Mgt will hide and all fingers will point at the pilot. But forget even those 2 points above...where will Bragon be then? How safe do you think your cozy little position is then?

Think about the big picture...these crap intimidation tactics will affect each and every pilot within Bragon if something does go wrong...and how close did it come with a Training Captain in the 320 approach and landing recently? The closest that Bragon has probably ever had to a major!

- Guys livelihoods threathened after they leave Bragon because of childish (and it is nothing more than that) antics from mgt, that I think most parents would not allow their kids to behave as such.

Double standards in housing allowances...some booted, some asked to pay back. Where was the DPA on those?

- More coming to the surface soon, but one said individual from level 2 may have only been collecting housing for a short time while getting renovations...but it was wrong he was even collecting at all! Anybody else was sacked.

- And then we have more individuals (connected to level 2 of course)that were getting renos and had been claiming for considerable more time...yes, we do know about that too:}

So with just some of these issues above, where was the DPA's voice? They should be hanging these pricks on level 2 out to dry.

And as these things come to the surface, Cpt Bi-Polar aka Brutus is going psycho wanting IP addresses, etc...does that not say something to you in a very clear way? GUILTY! He is running scared and he damn well should be, he has lots to be afraid of, and no one has pushed him into this position, he has done it all with his own devices!

But then the DPA will probably say nothing can be done and take similar tactics that mgt has and get up any member who dares to question anything against what the DPA wants, never mind the members should be voting on these things...NOT told what to do!

DPA
 

I've just e-mailed the DPA highlighting these issues and I've asked for a written response as to how they will investigate these problems.

If they don't reply I'll be on the phone hammering them. I'll also be taking stock on the DPA if they fail to follow up this up.

Everyone please e-mail the DPA with your concerns and raise these issues.

They obviously need some encouragement :confused:

Stick to polite language guys. With the other thread you allowed the mods every excuse to pull it. The emotive language in this thread is going to make them pull this one as well.

I think you will find the sacked pilots were read a letter that just told them they were being terminated with no reason. In Hong Kong an employer can terminate an employee with no reason as long as they receive their full notice package, unless the law has changed since my time.

Jumping up and down and getting all excited will not help. Putting pressure on them where it hurts them will help and is the only way forward with this.

Cpt Whistleblower I was not referring to a legal defamation but a moral one. Some of the accusations against Level 2 are simply not true. This is a smear campaign that has become distasteful. Even to people like myself who have serious issues as to the conduct of some from KA management.

This could have been a clever tactic but credibility has been lost.

Turning on the DPA was another cowardly swipe. What did you guys ask for in your unsolicited and no doubt anonymous emails to the DPA? It would need to be better than some of the crap commanded in the above.

And Then...

It's not a smear campaign, it is fact. Are you denying that guys have been threatened with their last chance, etc?

- Just go back to a certain 330 flying over a large expanse of water...that Cpt was given a direct threat.
- The 320 doing a radical approach...deny it all you want, but a Training Manager was at the helm, funny how all talk about that 'incident' went quiet when it was found out that it was someone from training.
- Aircraft flying over the straits on one engine...gee that went quiet too when certain facts came out about the captain. Double standards and you are trying to stick up for it!
- Housing...why is it when any Level2 joker is talked about, that its simply not true? Don't worry, we know about a certain individual claiming while home was getting renovated, and then there were the others living 'on campus' shall we say.

Trying to pose as somebody against mgt and then sticking up for these kinds of tactics? You are pathetic.

Tell me why it has hit such a nerve with 'Brutus'...if it was 'simply not true' or anything else, he shouldn't have a worry, it is only prune after all. When things have been said about the big green, they let it pass...but 'Brutus' is running scared, he has been called out for his pathetic mgt style and letting all this crap happen right under his nose....and he is endorsing this behaviour from his troops.

He is a coward...he tries to be seen as the guy who gets along with everyone, be peoples buddy (it was Brutus' buddy that was claiming housing while flying for a certain Chinese carrier while on leave...what happened? nothing)...but he is so busy getting the little tin soldiers to do his dirty work, he has turned into a dictator with scant regard for livelihoods or anything else from the pilots. One thing runs 'Brutus' these days...his bonus check.

To try and say that we requested any crap from the DPA...you are dreaming...the DPA is getting paid good dues to represent the pilot body, not be on their knees asking for forgiveness from mgt. They came in with all guns blazing and burning the previous DPA committee...so what have they done? They started dictating that this 11% pay rise over 3years as the best deal the pilots will get. $1 billion in profit and they get a raise that doesn't keep up with the rising costs of living....mmm, good one!

So who are you really And Then...

I really hope And Then you're not the Level 2 guy from NZ that always has a 'love on' for those in positions like CP...you were after all, the one sticking up for the CP stand-in at Bragon Air and said his decision to let that aircraft fly back from NZ after a tail strike was well justified.....talk about mis-guided.

Or maybe And Then, you are the one making the threats to the pilots...he has been sitting on Prune and the DPA website 24/7 keeping an eye on everyone. What are you going to do, threaten anybody who makes a post? Is this really what your life has become?

If it isn't you, then get on the DPA site, 9am...5pm...anytime you see fit and gee, who is always there? watching you and anything you post, his name is there in pretty font for all to see and he's always watching...why do the DPA let's these mgt scum even on the DPA website?

What's wrong with having your house renovated while claiming housing? It's at no extra cost to the company (if you are paying for it) and it's a common thing to do in HK prior to moving into a new flat to make it more efficient/personal.

I thin this question would be best addressed to the CP :ok:

Surely he would know!

Well Personal instructed me to live in my place when I renovated last year. I was not going to argue.

Cpt Whistleblower

That is nothing short of a spray of paranoia. Relax a bit. I am getting schizophrenic trying to work out who you think I am.

Radical approach? Wow. You should be a journo! Training Manager at the helm? C'mon. I have heard the rumors but that is just another smear at Level 2. Capt given a direct threat flying over a large expanse of water? What are you talking about. Slow down. Take a breath!

There maybe a lot in what you say. You need to learn how to say it. Please stop taking swipes at your colleagues too.

And Then...personally I couldn't give 2 hoots who you are, I was actually using it as a chance to point out different muppets on level 2.

Radical Approach...what you think Vapp +57kts and 1800fpm rate of descent at 1500 ft is not radical? 1000ft Vapp +37...500ft +21 1200fpm ROD....Would you like more figures as they went down the approach? Why was there a witch hunt on, then all of a sudden it went quiet when it was learnt that is was a training captain? Any ordinary line guy would be hung out to dry...it's the Bragon way.

Maybe you should pull your head of the cloud of whatever you are smoking...amazing how quickly some forget when guys have been threatened...you don't even recall the bs treatment of one of the boys in a certain 330 on its way to India.

Swipes at my colleagues? The only people I have taken swipes are the ones who deserve to be questioned. Level 2 goes without saying, the DPA...well they are collecting a lot of dues for doing not a lot. They were the ones who came in saying they were going to change the world and that the previous committee before them was no good.

You can carry on as much as you like And Then, thinking you are clever....let's see how clever you are when an aircraft is bent (I never want this to happen) and see if it is some guy on the line who has been threatened from above. Bragon will be melted down to make pendants.

Luck has played a huge role in Dragon staying safe, not from some awesomeness from Level 2...luck does run out and watch Level 2 point the finger immediately.

It is simple, mgt is out-of-control...you can carry-on all you like trying to bait me to get an idea of who I might be...but morale is at an all time low, Bragon is going nowhere and mgt is treating everyone with contempt, it is inherent throughout the company (just see how they treat they cabin crew)...

Threats, double standards, morale, the list goes on...the holes are lining up.

Ladies please, please.....

Lets get some perspective here : You have just been given a massive payrise for doing nothing other than enduring the increasing pollution, inflation, cost of living and wide open spaces in HKG.
A320 skippers now get to improve their training/communication prowess almost daily, with more than 25% of the F/Os being < 200hrs ( this will actually please some of the Jedi knights no end ).
F/Os now have a heap more time to perfect their skills for that shuttle command that is now around 8 years and climbing.
A320 now has heaps more overnights so you can save lots more RMb for those " massages ". ( but make it quick with min rest )

And all you have to complain about is a few dodgy :mad:s on L2.....

I mean, FFS :E

Footnote : gweilos have been bashed more than a few times in DB and the cops don't give a rats ;)

Chill Bro
 

CptWhistleblower luck has phuckall to do with it mate ;)

Experienced pilots are the majority of the crew and it is their contributions that keep the operation safe and efficient :ok:

If you are a DPA member, air it there ;) not here for the world to see :mad:

The industry term is unstable approach not radical approach. Most airlines have them from time to time. You slated Level 2 by stating it was a Training Manager. Now you have backed down and stated it was a Training Captain.

Your posts are a sensationalist rant exaggerating events and you seem to have little background knowledge on other events.

Luck has not been a considerable factor in Dragonair's safety record. As snoop dog mentions above, it is the broad experience of the crews who can operate safely on the line despite leadership/management issues, a muzzled training department, Cathay Pacific's bizarre SOPs, China, maintenance and all the other threats that make KA line ops what it is today.

Can the LHS experience and operational maturity handle the localization of the RHS? This is going to be a considerable stress-test for our operation. Unless our managers adjust to more broader thinking and leadership styles, I have grave concerns personally.

Compare that approach to a very similar approach (with speeds, ROD, etc) by a 320 in the Philippines I think it was and yeah I would call it luck...why the hell was an aircraft even in a position to be only getting back to Vapp in the flare? Radical - Unstable......21kts fast at 500ft & 1200fpm ROD...that isn't unstable, that is just stupidity.

Anyway, this is taking away from the real problem here...mgt on level 2.

We know they are crying in the corner wondering why so much heat is coming down on their pathetic little dictatorship...still, the DPA and others let this continue, while the muppets threaten, harass, rule by intimidation, etc...they rip off the housing scheme, have double standards for guys on the line, and keep themselves cosy through unethical practices.

Keep supporting them, keep saying all is ok, keep thinking its all good.....low motivation amongst crews, morale abysmal, constantly having to have their a#### raped from level 2...yeah all sounds good to me.

Why don't you lay out a coherent and logical way/plan that you think the DPA can depose the blokes on level 2. The DPA has already done a "job" on them re the "just safety culture" and the reporting of go-arounds.

It's very easy to "hide out in tree tops and shout out rude names" (apologies Peter Gabriel) but I don't see any suggestions from you. I'm not taking sides, just wondering if you have any suggestions, e.g. how would they obtain documentation to investigate HPS payments to level 2 people, court order? private detective?

With regard to the pay-rise, the majority of the membership votes yes. That's a fact, reality.

I don't disagree that morale is at an all-time low and there are some real issues that need to be addressed, but a logical approach would gain better results.

So the wheel is turning and people are waking up to this dictatorship.

While you're in your offices Brutus aka Cpt Bi-Polar, Cpt Twitter, Cpt Swing-er and others not worth a mention...instead of checking prune every minute of the day and stressing your minds out, shouldn't you be running the show?

Just to save you the hassle, here's my IP: 174.133.108.172

Now get back to work....stop wasting the companies time!!! :}

Enough
 

Capt toss, whistleblower, air leak... Whoever you are, enough.

Before you start slinging your mud, I'm not a level 2 sycophant and not a big supporter of many in management, but enough is enough.
What do you hope to achieve?

You say morale is at an all time low, perhaps with you and your multiple personas it is, but I'm a line pilot and all seems well with those that I fly with.

We could all do a lot worse than KA

Capt Toss, take your pills, focus on your humorous side, enough of the nasty c&¥t!!!


Fx

Thanks for the complement, but I can assure you Captain Toss likes to work alone. I do suffer from multiple personality disorders usually starting from sign on till shut down.

The additional "Haters" that have come on the scene are new to me. I've had people ring me up and say hey are you this guy & that guy .... no I'm not ... but I'm glad to have been an inspiration for other people to speak up.

Right need to go work on my funny side ..... I'll cover myself in honey, dive into a box full of $100 notes and get a cab to Fenwicks!!!!

Feath...would love to help you out, but unfortunately we ain't one and the same as many might think.

After reading Toss and others, I decided it was time to be heard as well, I mean Bragonair mgt certainly won't listen in a 'just culture' way. So I guess now that I am voicing as well and what seems like a few others, we have decided enough is enough from corrupt management...while historically in aviation because of the size of the industry and seniority systems, it has made it very hard for pilots to be treated fairly when they do speak up. If they do, it is insanely hard to maintain a good standing in their chosen profession, as others burn, climb over, etc to move on up big shiny jets.

So yeah you are correct...enough is enough, we have encouraged pilots to speak up and now they have a chance to air their grievances without been squashed, muted, sacked, or anything else for that matter.

You may think we are just one...but look around where is all this coming from and the storm is only gathering. What is coming as stated in the Airline Leaks blog...oh man, once things are cleared with the legal eagles, watch how a corrupt empire will be brought to its knees...it will shock you and make you cringe.

Just have some patience, if you think I'm talking it up, go ahead...but just remember what has been written and that the level 2 'boys club' is in for very stormy action. Don't worry, I'm not making any threat, it's a promise!

My - my aren't the owners going to be so impressed with the little muppets they have acquired...should have run their background checks a lot better.

All was quiet on the Western Front.

Now, I am going to take issue with Personal. I was told when renovating 18 months ago I needed to stay in my residence. So, I removed my kids from school, sent them on a long holiday and camped in my shell of an apartment, showering from a hose and inhaling cement dust. Why did I not get special treatment if the rumors true? Not happy.

The Peter Principle
 

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
:=

Great qoute! :D he should be awarded as the greatest posters(sh*t S***er) on fragrant Forum too. ;)

Is that with reference to the 'mad dog' at AHK ex CX star chambers? :ouch:

Happy landings!

And Then,

You should send your concerns to the DPA, I've e-mailed them but they wont answer my request to push for an investigation. It's not fair that you had to endure such hardship but the management pilots can do as they please with their renovations.

(Rumor Has It) During the week, the GMO has continued to call chief pilots to try and screw guys over, yet he wants legal action for being criticized on pprune?

You are dreaming Mr Non Commissioned Officer Boiler Maker.

Megalomaniac? I think so

Toss, you pulled out of training, what happened?!

I'm writing a book "my life as the worlds greatest aviator by TP"

Besides people rarely turned up to fly with me .... they were to overwhelmed with the amount of knowledge that I could fire hose them, some even claimed to have seen the maitrix after receiving my divine information.

But like Jesus ... one day I will return :}

This thread has come to the attention of said airline's ultimate owner.

A good source has it that there will be a management investigation, discrete or otherwise.

Stay tuned.

The investigation by Air China should be interesting!

If you believe that anything will improve after an "investigation" you are very optimistic...... My few short years here have shown that it is all a " dog and pony show" :ugh: "smoke and mirrors" ...... Etcetera