Agreed the above is a farce! But what is the argument here anyway?? Is it the fact that LEPs are bitter for not receiving expat allowances or for expats receiving expat allowances?? Which is it?? Just curious what most LEPs think.

HK Fooey, I think signal8 was objecting to my use of gweilo as a racist term :p

Lets face it, any one who is caucasian ( a racist term?) is called a gweilo by the chinese (a racist term?) and expats alike. Now theres one for equality!

Gweilo is derogatory term, but we all seem to suffer it lightly when called by our own race.

Kitsune,

Did you actually bother to read the article before posting the link???

the LEPS are ONLY trying to fight for better Terms from the Company's (CX)'s pocket. even thou the CHANCES are SLIM to NONE because the company maintains a 10% of locals in the flight crew community. why create such a fuss? the point is, it is just the same for the SOs fighting for bypass pay, B scalers trying to get rid of A scalers beyond the age of 55... we are just doing the same thing aren't we? so why creating such an unnecessary debate and differentiation between "expat" and "local"? you guys too signed up for what u had in black and white. why screaming and shouting?

many of our STC across the fleets, were ex-BA cadet or miltary cadet, some form of other cadets too. so being a cadet isn't really a point, all the expenses may have been covered by you or by some other organisation, who cares, we all had to start somewhere, and all the cadetships weren't easy, and had to be completed with a limited timescale. Recalling from memory, correct me if im wrong, didn't cathay employed some BA cadets graduates in the early nineties?? if true, what kinda packages did they get? they had an option to leave, and did they??

h

added: it has also been discussed extensively nearly a decade ago:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...d-less-cx.html
discriminate or not, you decide yourself.

hekokimushi,


Finally someone with some sense. Well said!!
The sooner we all realise this, the sooner we maybe able to agree to pull together for a change.

WELL SAID hekokimushi:ok:

supply and demand?
 

Removing all expat allowances will leave this airline where? The CX baseline pay in HK, after 16% tax, is still better than most European, North-American and Auzzie airlines offer. So would we still get the number of crews we need if we cut allowances?

The answer is a definitive yes, but we'd no longer be able to tempt the number of suitable, experiences guys with clean records from other airlines and airforces back home. In good times, the majority guys we'd get would be the rejects from the rest of the civilized world; guys who couldn't get hired with the majors back home and need to search the world like nomads trying to get hired by someone; anyone. Most of us wouldn't be here without the expat allowance is fair to say.

The wheels would certainly keep spinning for a while, but the 3rd floor knows the leverage of expat allowance; otherwise they'd have cut it long ago. I relocated from my friends and family and joined Cathay Pacific because the total package offered was better than my status quo. Which was already pretty good. And if a better package comes along some day, I'll pack my bags again.

Which is exactly what LEPs should do. Cadetships are a double-edged sword, no doubt about it. If you're old enough to receive one, then you're old enough to make that decision. Otherwise, go abroad, build your hours, and take your chances. More risk should provide more reward.

Now, is the price cadets pay for their sponsorship too high? Absolutely. It's insane. Half pay for an entire 35 year career? Yes, there should be a price to pay for cadetships, but it should also be reasonable. And on that point, the HKAOA should fight for LEPs.

The local guys on this forum, expect to get all the allowances of expats, by alienating the majority of pilots in Hong Kong (Expats), whom they need the support of to get over the line? :hmm:

Travelling the wrong path guys. You are a very small group in the sceme of things and would have a very slim chance at best of acheiving a favourable outcome on your own. :=

Be grateful for what you have and seek the support of others, by supporting them.

My 2 cents worth.

with all to respect.
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???

What is it guys? enlighten me please

out
h

BA Mititary cadet
 

So who is the person trying to link BA cadets with military cadets? Grow up. :mad: So some BA cadet can graduate and become a FA, yet the military one can be shot at.:ugh: Any other long bows you wish to draw?

Chill folks. It's not as complicated as it seems.

The merry go-around is just that, a merry go-around. LEP's won't support the AOA because they believe that the AOA does not support their housing issue.

Many expat AOA members believe that the LEP's are not worthy of support because they do not support the AOA, or believe outright that they don't deserve any sort of additional pay on top of what they're getting.

This will obviously never change. This "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" attitude exists on all levels, and on most issues. And of course, there will be no winners...

Er? If you went on strike about your conditions, by alienating the majority of people in Hong Kong (Locals), whom you need the support of to get over the line?

Good luck next time you get screwed:ok:

Just an observation- quote a lot of LEP's have joined the AOA in the last year or so. I know that 90% of the cadets on my course, before my course and the two courses after mine have joined. Recently graduated courses have already begun to sign up. It's good to see that most new-blood cadet courses have added their names to join up, so I think it's partially unfair to say that LEP's are not supporting the AOA, especially since we are going to see a push in the number of cadet courses.

Of course as there is only one airline in Hong Kong.

I do not know what goes on in CX but if you find yourself going from flying piston bug smashers to sitting in command of a KA Airbus while still in your twenties then you should realise that this is not because you have more talent, skill or maturity than everyone else (no, really…).

The reason is because you made a Faustian pact. You jump the queue and get a job with KA on the basis that you have a HKG ID card. You do this with qualifications and experience that would otherwise cause your application to be thrown in the bin (most of the guys on my intake were 737 captains, the rest had extensive jet transport experience).

In return for the meteoric rise, you have to agree to a contract, which forgoes expat allowances.

When you make a deal with the devil you cannot complain about the terms later.

Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?

I would disagree with that. If that's the case, why would anyone in their right mind want to argue for better terms and conditions?

I'm sure Diablo doesn't want to deal, but as in any line of work, signing on the dotted line doesn't mean you should stick your feet in quick dry concrete.

Lets forget asking for payrises then...after all, we all knew what the payscales were when we signed right? :ugh:

As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place, pay rises are generally to keep up with the cost of living and in some cases, as recently, changes in exchange rates. ( yes, I know the exchange rate is now considerably better, that was not forecast when we got the pay rise )

You are not going to get people listen to your side of the argument, when time and again HKID cards are mentioned whilst skipping over the fact that no matter how long we live here IT WILL NEVER BE OUR TRUE HOME. End of story.

Quadspeed is right, remove all the allowances and the pay will still be good enough to attract expat pilots.......just like the ones HK Airlines attracts.
Once again, I ask : DO YOU REALLY THINK KA/CX WOULD PAY US WHAT THEY DO IF THEY DID NOT HAVE TO ?
I can earn nearly double here than what I would earn as a skipper with an LCC back home, take away the housing and there Is no way in hell I, or a stack of other guys, would have moved here.

It's just another excuse to not do anything but look after your own pot of gold.

Guys on bases getting bypass pay. Or guys fighting for extensions. Or DEFO's. Or ASL. Or B scale vs. A scale. It's all the same. Some of those are the same folks who will say cadets don't deserve one iota of extra allowances.

Or think about it this way. You came to this country simply because you chose not to stick it out as an S/O on that 'great Australian airline'. Or you simply couldn't get into that 'great Australian airline' and can't stand flying for LCC's, so you bent your arse backwards so you can come here. By your own volition.

So in that respect, you think a local lad without Australian residency can get into Qantas? Or BA, LH, etc. for that matter.

Opportunities for some are much more lopsided than others.

What poppy cock you write.

Quite a lot of CX Crew CHOSE to come here over staying in their own country, they didn't even bother to apply to their own Airlines. CX has or rather was the Airline of choice for a lot.

Now bugger off.

Ok then, RA65. There are lots of other things about the COS we have tried to change over the years too and you know it.

Not sure if this is in response to what I wrote, but nevertheless, it is true what you say. A lot of people think CX is their first choice airline, for a multitude of reasons. I think is fair to say that a large proportion of those blokes are top notch people. And as you can imagine, that situation is the same for cadets, although their choices are much more limited than those who have other avenues to pursue.

But then, I see a lot of comments from a lot of folks pertaining to why cadets don't deserve housing, is that if it wasn't for the expatriate package, no one would ever come to this craphole. Then they chose to come here, sign on the dotted line, and complain about anything and everything that has to do with this company and this city. Really, you chose to come here, and signed on 'the dotted line', so please be a little bit more thick skinned. Otherwise, don't throw stones from glass houses.

So in the end, no one is ever satisfied with their lot in life. Either a) take it on the chin, and enjoy your job and life a little bit more, or b) realize then that everybody wants a better lifestyle, everyone's concerns are just as valid as yours. It's like the captain who's divorced four times asking a LEP F/O why he or she doesn't support RA65. Or guys who wanted compact rosters so they can commute home, even though many don't require such an option, and now have to live with free reserve.

Don't think LEP's are asking for a full housing package. But every little bit helps. I know of DESO's that are living in the Four Seasons Serviced Apartments. A LEP captain cannot even dream of paying that much rent to live anywhere close to that standard, even if the market today has dropped significantly from what it was before. Nevermind a F/O then.

And if experience merits a higher salary, some come with 2500 hours on mostly props, some come with 5000 hours on regional, some are ex-military with varying degrees of flying experience, and the select few who used to be captains on other airlines. But everyone does the same job, some better than others, with various levels of 'maturity'. Would the guy with 10k hours look at the guy with 2.5k hours and say "why are you being paid as much as I am?" Never seen it happen. Most will be satisfied that when the **** hits the fan, a satisfactory outcome occurs.

And I think this applies to everyone in this company, expat or otherwise.

So where do you draw the line?

If the whole argument is based on expat are getting expat allowances then so should LEPs, what about all the based guys then, don't they have an equally valid argument to receive expat allowances, including 13 month pay, and maybe a special tax allowance seeing how taxes in based countries are twice as high then Hong Kong. Is this realistic though??

Someone asked why expats are so against LEPs receiving expat allowances, I think this is not the case. There are realistic and unrealistic demands. You will find should a based Captain post here demanding a similar special allowance to what an LEP Captain receives, he would be met with the same way.

Are you sure about that?? Last I checked even a studio apartment was above what an SO would be entitled to.

Where is the requested enlightenment?
 

In my opinion hekokimushi in his post #116 has carefully considered previous posts and has posted a very reasonable reply, which I believe is worth repeating. He says:

“What is it guys? enlighten me please
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???
What is it guys? enlighten me please”

So far there has been no enlightenment.

We all know that there is no dissent on Fragrant Harbour Forums that Hong Kong Local pilots are an almost insignificant minority, so any increase in their terms and conditions is hardly likely to bankrupt their employer.
Furthermore, not one poster has posted any concern about difficult conditions for his local employer.
So again, it should be said:
“What is it guys? Enlighten me please!”

Guava

Midnight Oil I think you are a bit unfair to post this comment:-

"Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?"

I am/was one of those "pseudo locals" who went through the whole KA direct entry process of two interviews and sim ride as well as complete the last 6 weeks of Adelaide and complete the entire FTC course upon my return. I am sure you are not doubting the abilities and standards of your expat colleagues who went throught exactly the same process bar Adelaide as us "pseuso locals" are you???


The Cav:cool:

From previous experience with employment law, once a person is qualified at same level and safe, irrespective of previous life, training etc, it only comes down to state law if you can have different remuneration you can, however if not you will have to rectify it. In Hong Kong employee rights are not that good compared to other jurisdictions. However if a law has been changed or reinterpreted LEP's do have the right to challenge it and get it corrected anyone's personal opinion becomes irrelevant as it can only be looked at with regard to law, not where you came from or how much jet time you had, or cadet program pilots are not a special case, we are just members of the public entitled to be protected by the law like anyone else( we are free men are we not, I know I am). Any other argument leads you down the track that slavery would still be legal the ultimate discrimination. The results will be interesting for both here and in the UK. If some one is found to be discriminated against you could then find people demanding A scale as that is the highest salary that is currently paid to some pilots. I don't profess to know all the details regarding both cases. You need to objectively look at it from the eyes of the law and remove opinion and heresay. I don't want to present an opinion that favours either side, however I don't believe any contract should be changed without agreement if one party is to be disadvantaged. These current situations are created by our employers lack of looking forward in regard to changes of law and to save money.

Many posts and still some continue to chase their tale.

Everyone's monthly pay is the same. If you do not live at home you get a living away from home allowance i.e. an "expat" package. If you are living/working from home you do not get a living away from home / expat allowance.

People based at home in USA, AUS, UK, MARS, VENUS etc, do not get a living away from home / expat allowance. Quite simple really.

The question that is continually being ignored is why local's living at home in Hong Kong feel that they should be paid more than locals in every other country/base that the company has?

You can dress it up with discrimination, philosophy and socio-economic claptrap but the reality is really very simple. Home = no allowances, not at home = allowances. :ugh:

Perhaps all local pilots should roll on the floor and make high pitch wails at the airport to protest about not getting any housing allowance. :}

SMT...............:D;):}:ok:

only problem is, all they will get for that is a J class ticket on CX and some Asia miles :E

Hmmm.... why is that UK based "local" Capt does not get any expat allowance then? He is living away from home, isn't he?:ugh:

Added to this, the company is to shortly announce further opening of the cadet scheme to any nationality. Someone who has never stepped foot in Hong Kong or indeed out of their hometown will be able to apply. Of course, they will be on local terms.

So then where does the argument stand about keeping their native standards of living? If anything it almost looks like they are trying to further dilute the number of expats in CX.

On the other hand if they think they can pay expat cadets local terms and keep their loyalty to Hong Kong and Cathay with 15+ years to command they are in for a shock!

geh, you will still get killed in the stampede of wanabee's ( expat or otherwise ) that will take the cadet route rather than the " shell out 500k HKD " of you're own money route.
CXs local COS are as good or better than conditions in our own countries and whilst a cadetship is not a guarantee of a CX position, it is a win/win situation.....either you get a commercial licence for free or you get a commercial licence for free and a job with CX.
I would have taken it as a young lad, no question.

PS I think you will find 15 years to command ( I thought CX was around 10 ?? ) is pretty standard for a flag carrier, I can say QF is for sure.

fooey,

Absolutely I agree who in their right minds would turn down a chance to have an airline pay for all their training! However local terms compared to normal terms at many other airlines is not all that great and there are quite a few other airlines they could go to and get better pay. 15 years to command is not unusual amongst other big carriers you are right, however this is not the case if you start including the Middle East. Most of these guys and gals will be young ones and the chance to start with their own flag carriers, with comparable or in quite a few cases better conditions and live at home rather than in HK would be a great temptation. They will be at the start of long careers, so a few extra years for that command will not be as important to many of them as for expats who joined CX in their 30s.

There's one thing I don't understand
If the (non-cadet) expats with HKID are paid the local rates, why don't they just quit and work for another airline like SQ?