Someone asked why I did'nt complain about my COS because I'm B scale..................bloody simple really, they told me what I was going to be getting at the interview and I was happy with it, so now I will only complain if what they told me I was getting is taken away, is that simple enough. If you cadets or locals ( sorry I offended someone by calling them a local, touchy mob are'nt ya ) make that indigenous hong kong inhabitants, are not getting what you were originally told then whinge your hearts out, you have a case.

Funnily enough, when ( or if ) I am here for 7 years, and if I apply for perm HKID, my family, friends, grass, wide open spaces, relatively cheap housing and clean air do not automatically all move to Hong Kong....or do they. ( cool, if they do )
The fact that I will then have a few rights that I don't have now changes nothing WRT the fact I AM NOT FROM FRIGGING HONG KONG :ugh:

Any indigenous hong kong inhabitants are welcome to move to, for instance, Australia ( I actually worked with one guy who did this ) and instantly get the exact same conditions as everyone else, around $40,000HKD a month with any LCC or as an S/O with QF, How much do you guys get again ?

Hong Kong is certainly not all bad, but I and most of my expat ( I am really offended by being called expat, gweilo etc, please refer to me as a indigenously challenged inhabitant ) colleagues have given up a lot to move here, and we would not be doing it for nothing, as has already been mentioned, supply and demand, is anyone silly enough to think CX/KA would pay us what they do if they did'nt have to ?? Do you really think they like us that much ??

The best argument of all, and one I did not think of is that nobody on a base gets a housing allowance, so I don't think you guys have a leg to stand on.

EngineOut, it can't be denied how many 'expats' there are in this company who are now permanent HKID holders. I'm not pointing out that there should be a reduction in CoS upon attaining one either, far from it. What I'm trying to highlight is the level playing field that the situation becomes when one's naturalisation status becomes that of a resident. How does that make someone who joined the company with a HKID different to someone who attains it later, when he/she does?

BusyB, I wouldn't be able to tell you about the voting rights of someone who gets permanent residency after his/her 7 years here vs. someone born here, but I think govt. voting rights aren't all that valid in this debate, seeing as the focus is more on how the change in status affects what public services you would have to pay for as an expat vs. being a local. Interesting point though, I was under the impression that all permanent residents were eligible to vote. Not that voting for puppet regimes gets anyone anywhere quick.

Hoofharted, settle down. No need to call anyone a liar...or lawyer, if it's the truth we're misrepresenting. Leave that label for management where it is deserved.
The crux of the matter is in the equality of living conditions that locals are able to afford as opposed to their expat counterparts. LEPS recognise that the expat package is designed to afford anyone coming in from overseas a lifestyle similar to the one that they get home. Consider though, that depending on where you come from, this varies significantly. Someone from the Dales would probably have had a much more affordable lifestyle than someone from NYC. But the expat package does not make that distinction, everyone gets the same deal when they come here, and that's the way it should be. Now, personally I do recognise that on a base, people are shed of their benefits and are paid a basic salary commensurate with the living standards of the country that they live in. And so the argument goes that in HKG, a HKG local should be afforded pay which reflects a general living standard of where they come from, because that's where they are expected to live out their remaining days. Ok.
Now, to transpose the same standard of review, if someone from S.A. came to HKG to work, does their basic pay reflect that they come from a country where you can afford a 5 bedroom house on proper acreage for the price of a mid level flat? Or that someone who comes from LON could only afford, by comparison, a small semi detatched for the same amount? Coming to HKG removes all of those distinctions. Regardless of where you come from, here in HKG you will all be given, depending on how smart you handle your money, enough to have 2000 odd sq ft in an area not bordering China or Macau.

What I'm trying to get at is that whatever base you are on, surely it's only fair for everyone living there that they should be able to afford a similar lifestyle. Is it right that a LEP only be able to afford 1000 sq ft in Sham Tseng when someone from abroad of exactly the same rank and file can afford double that or more in idyllic Sai Kung, with 2.4 kids, 2 club memberships and all the while paying off a house which maybe they'll go back to, or maybe they won't, depending on how they feel. Can anyone really justify that as being fair? I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts proceeding a yes or no answer.

For me though, the most disturbing aspect is how in these forums, there are individuals purpoting to say that if they could change things to put LEPS on a package similar to their own, and in the same blurb start making justifications about how locals should remain locals, or leave, or other such remarks. Guys, all we are trying to do is make a plight for better terms and conditions just like anyone else. Just like anyone unhappy with their lot, there will be complainers, there will be whiners, but more importantly there will be people trying to make a difference. The last people that we would have ever expected abrasion from are our fellow workers, though it seems that we can expect little help from some as well, as they have made their feelings known about how we should deserve our lot.

sirhcttarp - absolutely. If you become an expat you should get expat terms.

Mullah - So you want to be compensated for your place of birth/abode? I don't believe that anyone would have anything against people trying to improve their lot in life. If you can do so, then go for it you would have my and many others support. But don't pull this discrimination bllsht when it is quite simply a case of an expat allowance versus living at home, for the 3rd time, nobody else on a home base gets an expat allowance (a point you continue to ignore). Lets not confuse you personal aspirations with CX cos.

Mullah,

I think you are misinterpreting what others are saying. I think just about everyone in the aircrew body would be happy if you guys got some form of housing allowance. What everyone is going on about is that you guys signed up as locals, knowing what the CoS were, and are now complaining that you don't get expat benefits.

I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all.

You took advantage of the fact, that as a 'local' you could join the cadet program (which is not available to foreigners), and all the benefits that has: no cost to you and 200 hours in your logbook flying a wide-body with a stable job with a stable income but now turn around and want expat benefits as well. Your plight about living conditions should have been calculated when you signed up and you knew what salary you would earn and hence what living standards you could afford. You guys signed up for it.

Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.

Your argument is in line with me demanding A-scale, when I signed up for B-scale. The guy I sit next to is does the same job as me but he is A-scale and therefore gets paid more. Or consider that some A-scale FOs earns more than than some B-scale Captains in the left hand seat, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. But that's what they signed up for.

The fact is CX/KA need to pay a premium for expat packages to attract people they need to move here and give up their homelands/lifestyle/family/friends. If they didn't they wouldn't get the bums on seats they need. You guys are locals and are therefore not moving away from your homeland/lifestyle/family/friends. If the salary you signed up for is not enough for your lifestyle, get another job. Simple.

It is interesting to note that whenever this LEP debate comes up in these forums that people start saying "well thats what you signed when you joined" etc...

Unfortunately the same argument applies for things like payrises and everything else that is in our COS which we are arguing to have amended/updated/improved. of course, there are plenty of things in the COS the company does not stick to anyway which is another story!

oh boy........................there are a lot of bitter people around here.

And you know who's fault it is.

CATHAY MANAGEMENT :=

EO

"I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all. "


FYI, yes, cadet program does saved the company in the long term, therefore we have a cadet program; however, the main reason why CX started a cadet program was to show people from HK that they're returning something to the local community (offering flying opportunity). If the main reason was cost saving, they would have sponser more cadets, having over 100 cadets down in ADL at a time like CAL.

Maybe CX don't want to crash all the time.

Hoofharted, I haven't ignored the base pay issue. Read my previous post. I am advocating for lifestyle parity wherever people live, i.e. those in LAX should be living in similar conditions, those on LON base should be living in similar condition, HKG etc. My personal aspirations? No need to make me sound like an ambitious shylock, but if that is what you believe fits the description of someone trying to argue for equal living conditions, I happily accept. With regards to your other point, I'm not saying that I feel the need to be compensated for my place of birth/abode, but I would hesitate to say the same for you. In fact that point serves to highlight what the spirit of the expat package is about. It's about giving you something similar to what you would have received at home. Without the benefits as great as they are, you would be living like a good deal of the LEPS do, i.e. in small apartments in more mundane locations. Fundamentally because you insist that locals are locals and therefore deserve local scales, you therefore insist that we deserve to live in average conditions in HKG whilst people doing exactly what we do deserve to live better. I fail to see a) the parity b) the empathy c) the humanity but I as hell see the hypocrisy. So how about I make a deal with you. We beg to differ, I stop harping on about discrimination (which up until now, I have never even used the word but I'll go off of what you say) and you stop interspersing the debate with your fundamentalist views on what constitutes local and expatriate. And I would wager a bet that you have a permanent HKID card too, just like me.

EngineOut, I take your points to heart but I must disagree. I do understand the economic basis of the existence of the cadet program. Every company's bottom line is the dollar, we all know that. i've already addressed the point about service rendered to compensate for initial training costs so I won't touch upon that again. But my arguments do not teeter on making as much money in hand as you guys do, merely that I believe since we all live in HKG, we should all be living to a similar standard. This thing about 'we all know what we signed up for', it keeps getting thrust back in the LEPS ears with a steel brush. We know that. If the company doesn't tell us about it, the other aircrew do....right after we acknowledge it ourselves over and over again. I agree that there are complainers who ought to put their words into action but it's not about that as much as it's about a prevailing sentiment amongst those who feel that it's acceptable for LEPS to live worse off than people from abroad....because hey...we're from HKG, that's how hongers live. So I ask again....for the 3rd, 4th or 5th time (can't remember): does anyone really think it's fair? So far no one has been inclined to answer that one.

One thing I do have to bring up though, is something you mention about a stable job with a stable income ad infinitum. Trying to keep this job with 200 hours under your belt, having to learn everything in the same space it would take someone who has years of experience under their belt doing something of this nature, has very little stable element to it. I hope you can see it from that perspective.

<Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.> So we've come back to that one again. Alright, as apples are apples and as a corollary by definition, neither is anyone else with a permanent HKID card. Because that makes you ...... a Honger.




ACMS.....best thing that's been said in this entire thread.

I don't think you are a local until you qualify for the HKSAR passport.
that should count most of us out of it.

An SAR passport entitles you to political and diplomatic representation. A permanent HKID card entitles you to all the social services that any HKID holder is entitled to. Please don't say that a passport would make a difference to our CoS. This debate is contrived enough as it is.

O.K so in a nutshell you want:

1. Free training
2. A salary while you are training
3. A guaranteed job when you complete your training
4. Not prepared to move away to find work
5. Sacrifice nothing in terms of being away from family and friends, however;
6. An expat package to compensate you for not being an expat
7. Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job

It may be convenient to "ignore the fundamentals" but that only goes to the heart of the issue. That is exactly why there is a pay difference and exactly why you choose to ignore it, as your argument collapses if you acknowledge the reason for the difference.

In a utopian world we would all be living in paradise. (nope, don't have a permanent card). Anyway, good luck to you with whatever you do.

Hoofharted, allow me to respond following your point format:

1) Free training: not at all. We recognise our financial obligation to the company for training us. What is fair would be making us pay back with numbers of years of service, but to put us on an essentially half-payscale for the duration of an entire CX career just isn't kosher.

2) A salary while we are training: we receive as much training at this airline just as you do. Otherwise you imply that we are being held to a different standard every time we have an RT/PC. We don't receive salaries down in ADL either, although there is a monthly allowance of a whopping AUD 400 per month.

3) A guaranteed job when you complete your training: The only time that the job becomes a guaranteed offer is after we come back to HKG to sign the CX contract which then gives us a seniority number. Completion of the cadet course is in itself not a guarantee of employment. It's interesting to note that DE guys sign and receive seniority + pay before heading down to ADL to complete JTS and their CAD exams. Locals have to pass everything first. Another slight difference to note, and not in the locals favour either.

4) Not prepared to move away and find work: Actually I happen to be one of those lucky enough to have options once I have requisite hours and as I've said before, I have looked around and I know that so have others. I would caution the assumption that locals who have the ability to go elsewhere haven't thought about it. Personally I don't believe in keeping my eggs in one basket and it still remains an open decision. But my concerns also reflect the situations of those who don't have such options. The suggestion earlier, I forget which post, that someone with nothing other than an SAR passport can just up and leave for Aus is a nice idea, but the reality of the situation is such that the red tape would be a vastly difficult hurdle to negotiate. Why not though, if it's an option, try to change the status quo rather than turn a blind eye at the dilemma. I believe that this is the central tenet of the LEPS endeavours with regards to negotiating better T's and C's and surely they have the right to put that foot forward.

5) Sacrifice nothing in terms of family and friends: There are a lot of local guys who are away from family and friends when they come here. And there are locals whose family and friends have moved away. But a moot point if we are talking about financial remuneration I think...unless you need extra money to deal with the emotional distress of separation? I don't think the expat package was designed to take psychological matters into account.

6) I've never specified 'an expat package' in any of my arguments. What you receive is enough to live well here and have enough in pocket to build a parallel life wherever it is you come from. Two for the price of one. What we receive is enough to live like an average honkie here. Without building assets anywhere else. Half for the price of one. I am advocating for a lifestyle for locals that our expat counterparts receive whilst living here in HKG, I'm not asking for a package to build an empire overseas, which by comparison you guys are able to do. Or at least a little fiefdom.

7) Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job: I think geh065's post reflects my sentiment as well for this answer. Would you not argue for a contract which reflects inflationary rises year after year? The numbers in your contract are fixed integer values. 20 years down the road, those numbers are going to be worth less because economics are dynamic. Your housing agreement reflects market values. We only have those contractual numbers. The nuances of our arguments are subtle at times, but over the course of a lifetime career at CX/KA (if we choose to stay), the effects can accrue into something significant.

Thank you for your good wishes and I hope this sheds some light from the local perspective but something tells my spidey sense that we will continue to differ in opinion. And isn't that what makes sure the world isn't boring.

Lite

Sirhcttarp

Don't know how long you've been on the line for but I've found that there is such a variation of thought on the LEP matter. Some support it, most are apathetic and a few downright oppose it. I enjoy engaging in the debate but I am not holding my breath relying on a change in legislation. Large corporations have amazing way of finding loopholes so it's going to be a long fight my friend. Funny enough, I'm still waiting to hear a yes or no answer from anyone about my question in previous posts on lifestyle parity.

Not a single KA local Captain left during the mass exodus of last year. Something like 12% of KA Captains resigned. A startling figure which helped improve the package.

I don't believe KA local Captains were particularly active in the industrial campaign.

Good luck to the guys but don't expect me to go out on a limb. I did that before and helped get you your special allowance!

In KA we do have local term none locals, guys who were either PRs or had grown up in HK because of family commitments.

We often associate local to be chinese in HK, which just aint true.

However, if we become more specific and say a local chinese or local caucasian, south asian etc and stop being so politically correct

The are an increasing number of local chinese getting promotion to the LHS in KA and many more to follow as they gain the experience.With the current freeze on command training, these guys will jump ahead of their more 'experienced' juniors in time, as many are quite senior now.

There does however, seem to be a bias towards reducing the total experience levels for these candidates, below the mandatory 5000. It certainly happened last year, with one guy comencing CT @ 3600 hours.The training manager does have an asian wife (formerly his DH), as do many of KA managers/senior trainers.But im impliying nothing here of course.

HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA website.

HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA websit

Not entirely correct. 3 local boys left KA last year and went to Oasis. Although it did not last long, but they still did something about it.

I have flown with all three of them, on both the Airbus and Boeing fleets, and I can assure you,they are all very good operators. Two of them even paid for their own training, did their time in GA, and had foreign passports.

They were given local terms due to the fact that they have Asian faces. What they did not know when they signed the contract is that KA have hired pilots who were born in HK, raised and educated in HK, have a permanent HKID, but are Caucasian..

Locals, KA is your 'GA'. It is where you gain experience, until you can get a good job.

In saying that, I do see merit in same pay once you meet the experience requirements that the expats are being hired under, maybe a progressive transfer to the full package as you gain experience, levelling to the full b scale package once you pass the command. Ironically, that time coincides with you having the experience to apply elsewhere. Market forces should determine what you do. I think your arguement for equal conditions missed its opportunity to succeed by about a year and a half. The closest we ever got to the 'pilot shortage' we all dream about, (that never comes) was 18 months ago. The best chance you had was when the DPA was 'negotiating'. No membership, no voice. Form your own association maybe? Not such a stupid idea, but smarter to be active in the one we already have. Once upon a time B scalers were outnumbered in the association, now they run it. Locals need to see the benefit of weight in numbers, not hiding behind clenched teeth smiles, seething with resentment for expats. Your energy should be focussed on the company that enforces the agreements. At the end of the day, no ones hand was forced to sign a substandard agreement, it doesn't make it right that it was offered in the first place, the same could be said about the offering of b scale.

While our managers are paid based on how much they can screw out of you, (bonus based on savings made) dont expect results anytime soon.

Interesting to hear the KA perspective. There was also a case in CX where an individual was given expat terms and then downgraded to local terms after the company found out about his ties to HKG. Years later he walked into his fleet office after they called him in to discuss his command upgrade and handed in his resignation letter the same day. An absolute legend with balls of steel. Incidentally he was Chinese.

I was born in HK, emigrated overseas when I was a kid and now holding a foreign passport. Did my time in GA and airlines. KA offered me a local contract just because I hold a HKID despite:

1. I paid for my own trainig.
2. I have experience similar to other expats.
3. I am away for 10+ years, with no family and not having a place to live in HK.

I voted with my feet. Got a job across the Pearl River estuary. Probably not a wise decision in terms of job security but I know I am doing the right thing. :ugh:
Hmmm... it may not be so bad after all - lower cost of living, lower tax and much shorter time to command. :}

For those on "local" terms your SALARY is exactly the same as the expat that you joined with. The difference occurs with "allowances".

The "expat" receives housing allowance due to the cost of housing in HK comparable with the country they have been recruited from. The fact that the company allows some people to use that for a mortgage is a "company" decision and purely financial, it is cheaper for them in the long run and "ties" the recipients to the company.

The education allowance is given as the government does not provide free "english" based education, whereas the "local speaking" can receive free education.

So you are NOT being discriminated against as you receive the same salary, flying allowances, travel and right choice benefits, depending upon your date of joining. Local Captain's receive a "special" allowance for being at the appropriate level of management, the same as other non-flying "local" managers.

It is like those who do not have children asking for the education allowance because other people are receiving it so they should, they are getting paid more than me.

If I was at my home base then I would not receive, quite rightly, housing or education allowance. The same argument put forward against extensions can be used, you knew what you were signing up for - live with it.

WRT the former post:

<The "expat" receives housing allowance due to the cost of housing in HK comparable with the country they have been recruited from. The fact that the company allows some people to use that for a mortgage is a "company" decision and purely financial, it is cheaper for them in the long run and "ties" the recipients to the company.>

What a load of....

Your statement warrants merit if you come from Oslo, Seoul, London, Paris, Monaco, Tokyo or any other metropolitan area comparable to HKG with, and this is not an understatement, astronomical housing costs. But given the variation in background origin I'll bet there are more than some who come from burb areas with podunk commuter airports that wouldn't have a hope in hell of appearing on the Forbes list of most expensive places to live. And how convenient to argue on the side of the company's financial decision making! It just so happens allow you to accrue equity in the form of some of the world's most expensive property whereas such financial shaking and making is almost non existent in other airline's expat packages. Well, let's not touch upon that point anymore lest the company get wind of the fact that they might be doing you, and not just them, a favour.

<The education allowance is given as the government does not provide free "english" based education, whereas the "local speaking" can receive free education.>

"Local speaking"? You can use the term Chinese, it's not a dalit word. Most LEPS recognise the need for families from overseas needing to place their kids in a language curriculum which reflects what they would be immersed in at home. But there are LEP families here whose kids don't speak a lick of English either.....because guess what, their parents aren't Chinese. Would your standards apply to them too? And if so, then what about the expat families whose kids were born here in HKG....they would then be entitled to all the education benefits that a local child would receive, and why not send them to a Chinese school and become bilingual, which a few expats already are. And still claim the education allowance, which some do. What's that about getting paid mroe than you? Oh right, I forgot, it only applies if locals get more than basic pay. Filthy, filthy thought.

sirhcttarp...

I agree with your point #2,and remember furthermore that there are now HONG KONG based freighter commands offered too..

- Seniority applies
- Local terms ie: no housing
- "special allowance" due cat D status

And these positions are available to anybody REGARDLESS, I say again REGARDLESS of nationality,permanent HKID,skin colour,ethnic classification or whatever..

It's nothing more than a salary cut and a cunning scheme by CX to by-pass expat housing allowances..:yuk:

God !! I did not realise how frustrating this would be, but here I go repeating the same :mad: again.

1) It does'nt matter weather I ( and other non-chinese HK inhabitants ) get a bloody perm ID card, a key to the city and a ticker tape parade, MY FAMILY, MY FRIENDS ( some of which I have known for 25 years ), MY CLEAN AIR AND MY WIDE OPEN SPACES WILL NEVER BE HERE IN HONG KONG, wether I spend 7 or 70 years here, nor will the relative peace and quiet I enjoy at home as I sit here listening to the HK anthem....Hammer drills, jack hammers and some idiot sneezing at the top of his voice probably from breathing in concrete dust.
I am not prepared to live out in the New Territories in a high rise 600' apartment for the privilege of all of the above, not when I had a Jet command, a 2500sq ft house on a 5000' block of dirt ( which I owned, not the govt ) and not a bloody hi rise in sight.
Does anyone here really expect us to give that up for nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) The argument about getting housing on a base ( which does not apply to KA anymore and that was originally what this thread was about, a KA pilot complained to the SCMP ) is a MOOT point, if you had the right of abode in Oz or Pommy land, or Europe, then you would probably have a EU or OZ passport, and unfortunately ( not my fault ) CX would just play the same cards. It needs to be added at this point that none of the guys on a base get ANY allowances, alot of those guys are not living in their home country either.

3) I am afraid I have to agree with Trev, the local guys ( sorry about the offensive " local " terminology ) are very quiet when it comes to any industrial action, in spite of this, the Gweilo DPA have managed to get some extra allowances for the local guys, this of course goes completely unmentioned in the one sided SCMP article. I would have thought that was a royal kick in the guts for the DPA guys.

4) You can't go calling the AOA racist or discriminatory, they have done absolutely :mad: all for any CX pilots, and that is unlikely to change any time soon.

5) HKID,HKID, HKI:mad:D, it does not matter, we are not from here, we essentially do not wan't to be here, not because as I am sure it will be or has been suggested, we are racists, WE JUST LIKE OUR HOME for better or worse.

6) In Oz, and I can only speak for Oz, as a resident and taxpayer you are entitled to ( not after 7 years !! ) ALL benefits, the same as a person born there, Education, Medical ( the public medical craps on HK ), even unemployment benefits, yes thats right, we don't kick you out of the country when you lose your job, so who's country is racist and discriminatory ??? I think I will lobby for all expats to get full local benefits from day 1.
Now hands up how many of you local guys are with me on that one........Yep, thought so.
About as much chance of changing that as of getting CX and KA to pay locals expat benefits....Buckleys.

Signal8, how is Trevfly a racist ? What he said actually happened, so once again who is discriminating ? Facts, not emotive rubbish comments.

Sirhcttarp, Mate, Mate, Mate, I live in a nice part of HK in a nice large flat by HK standards, apart from sucking in the crap in the air I am still living at about 50% of the " superior " conditions I enjoyed at home. I take it you think I should live in another country in even worse conditions still, that's nice and non discriminatory.

Mullah, if you think cadets, initially, are held to the same standards as direct entries then you are smoking way too much crack, and on that subject, Cadets are not equal in that they are not eligible for command, under KA guidelines for around 7 years ( 7yrs x 700 hrs ) whereas a direct entry pilot is usually eligible after a year.

Mullah, you complain that some of your questions are not answered and happily skip over the fact that Cadets have ZERO financial risk, OK they may not have a gauranteed job but they do not fork out upwards of 700,000HKD and have to worry about living expenses. Do you think our Mummies and Daddies supported us during our training ? No, well who then. ( OK, I do concede a few would have had mum and dads support )

Can any of you argue that your conditions are different to what you signed up for ??
No ?, well why did you sign for something you are not happy with ?

Once again, SUPPLY and DEMAND.
we are only here because CX and KA need us, with 1.4 Billion people jus to the North and 1/3 of the population of Australia here in HK I will leave you to decide why that is.
But need us here and they have to pay accordingly.

Even on local T&Cs you are still getting paid more than 50% of the pilots in the world, FACT, if you don't like it then along with everyone else you can just apply elsewhere, can't you ? ( or don't you want to leave home ? )

If I was a really, really devious CX manager I might be beavering away quietly working up reasons for the Hong Kong SAR Government to declare expatriate benefits discriminatory, just as they did with the Civil Service's expat package.....:cool:

If that's the case Kitsune why do "local" CS still have the ability to send their children to boarding school outside Hong Kong?

Sirhcttarp

I did say that your medical benefits depended upon when you joined. The "expat" has various levels of medical coverage depending upon date of joining!

The FOC is EY class, unless you are a Captain, Pr 4 to home ticketing port, 4 sectors NOT via HKG and Pr 11 for a destination other than home ticketing port, thus the same as a local. The FOC for the "expat" was initially introduced instead of the travel fund, but now everyone gets it, to make it fair.

Mullah lite

As for education allowance you cannot claim it then stick it in the bank, that is fraud, you have to show receipts. Are you sure you work for CX?

Just a question!!!

If expats all leave tomorrow, can CX still keep going?

No, they would fold overnight. The fact that the expat conditions remain are an admission of this fact. They arent a charity by any stretch of the imagination. If they could ditch us all, the dismissal letters would hit our mailbox with the ink dripping wet.

We all know that eyesight is a big problem for many local wannabee pilots, but for those of us locals who have the eyesight medical and aptitude requirements, we should be rewarded with the “rate for the job”. Without proper incentive how will the local Hong Kong pilot contingent ever increase in number?
As a long term CX shareholder I totally oppose this discrimination which I believe is against the long term interests of our company.
Funny how, as core employees, we get a lower rate for the job, but when it comes to possible redundancy due to economic downturn there are few voices to say that Hong Kong People should be last out.
Is CX being run in the interests of its shareholders?

deng...deng...leng...deng... B-R-A-V-O..:D:D:D:ok:

This thread is extremely tedious - all of you please stop posting.

Sorry I think many of us may be lost here except we may accept that Fife is, in parts, a most excelent region of Scotland.
Romanised Chinese characters like this
deng...deng...leng...deng...
without any tonal clue are essentially meaningless.
Pprune is an English Language Forum.
Please translate into English.

Iceman 50

Yes I do, though I do not have kids myself and wouldn't be an authority on how the education allowance system can be manipulated, but I do know of expats sending their children to local schools. I'm not a tax expert so I wouldn't have the first notion of how to hide the numbers. I'll be the first to admit that someone else would be better equipped to explain that one.

Fooey, you're not the only one getting frustrated at the arguments here. Both sides are hitting each other's brick walls.

<Mullah, if you think cadets, initially, are held to the same standards as direct entries then you are smoking way too much crack, and on that subject, Cadets are not equal in that they are not eligible for command, under KA guidelines for around 7 years ( 7yrs x 700 hrs ) whereas a direct entry pilot is usually eligible after a year.>

Ok, well, you've said the operative word yourself: initially. If you think that a local FO or CMNDR checked to the same standards as you deserves less than you get, and I've emphasised especially when they get their command, then in all fairness, you are the one smoking crack. Interesting point about a 6 year discrepancy between cmnd eligibility at KA. FYI a similar though less severe comparison happens in CX whereby a cadet enters as a grade C S/O whereas a DE guy enters as grade B, i.e. the cadet has at least another year in the SO position than someone who is DE. But by the time they all QL, I give the C&T department here at CX enough credit that they are checking to a minimum standard to line, regardless of background. In none of my arguments previously have I tried to convey that cadets don't have to work to get to the same standard as anyone else and that this takes time. But eventually, it does happen. Or they Cat D. And when all dues are paid, they are on a level playing field. That's all.

<Mullah, you complain that some of your questions are not answered and happily skip over the fact that Cadets have ZERO financial risk, OK they may not have a gauranteed job but they do not fork out upwards of 700,000HKD and have to worry about living expenses. Do you think our Mummies and Daddies supported us during our training ? No, well who then. ( OK, I do concede a few would have had mum and dads support )>

Zero financial risk.... I have a differing opinion about it, so would the breadwinning guys (albeit few) who've had to be away from their wives and give up their jobs to take the risk of passing the course, and contrary to what you say I've been over this point before, and the only way I can perhaps take on a different perspective is by quantifying the discrepancy in income at the end of a local's career and an expat's one. I do not believe this is an appropriate forum to publish the numbers since it is public for any joe schmoe to read, but if you choose to do them yourself when you have a moment and are feeling bored, tell me if you really don't think an initial 700 000 HKD injection pales in comparison to the end result of your calculations. I'll give you a hint: you end up making literally double in pocket what a local makes. So once again, and now I direct the question at you, since you've so happily volunteered to answer it: is that fair?

Here is Hong Kong. Like it or not, the goverment should protect local labours.

Expats in HK stepping on our local policies? how ridiculous. I wouldn't say a word if the Australian government decides to kick all expats out of Australia. They have the right to do so. What did Obama say? Buy American!

The KA cadet scheme should be terminated. It is purely financially and politically motivated. The experience levels and limited capabilities are high risk.

If local pilots were to get expatriate benefits the cadet scheme would die overnight as it just is not economically viable.

Some of the incidents by senior local pilots are nothing short of spectacular. An expat would have been sacked. Again, it is political.

jjpoon

WTF are you on about?

Protect local labour? You are protected. Read the above.

Don't push it too far. You are worth what you are worth. Like it or not.

The whole argument is based on envy and jealousy. The principle facts stated on this thread by many are being overlooked by skewed reasoning to justify a demand.

If all expats were sent back from where they were employed, which was (and maybe still is) the master plan, so that only LEPs remained based in HKG, would you still pursue the expat allowances, or would you then be satisfied with your current package???

Morning EngineOut

Look, I know how hard it was to start from the bottom of the GA ladder, because I did the same thing. I took out a loan, worked my pants off getting my licences, then worked them off even more earning scraps doing odd jobs. I actually qualified for food stamps on four of my salaried years. And never in my previous posts have I said that that method of climbing the ladder was a walk in the park, i.e. I have never diminished the recognition of the efforts that anyone has put into their careers to get here.

But I'm sorry really cannot agree with you when you say that the cadetship is a relative walk in the park because for quite a few of the guys who do it, that's the their only shot of getting into the business. They don't come from places that have a GA/military system that they can break into and work whilst learning. And as such the pressure to succeed doing the cadetship factors very high. Though as you and I both know how it might have been a struggle to cope with working and learning at the same time, we were in an environment that offered choices to climb that ladder. That opportunity is not present in HKG. It's a one shot deal here. I can understand where you are coming from but I must beg to differ.

With regards to the grade C/B SO thing, I wasn't making a comparison to a cadet vs. a DE guy joining, I was just saying that there are similar discrepancies made in CX as fooey was pointing out at KA, though it's not a 6 year gap in qualification standard. That's all.

And yes, I do believe that the QL is a set standard for everyone across the board. Would a QL check be any easier for an ex cadet as opposed to a DESO? I've mentioned before in previous posts that there comes a time when everyone has to reach a benchmark standard here, or else the same argument could go for someone who has thousands of military fast jet instruction time should qualify for more than the average joiner in the company, at any level. But that's not the case, because he QLs the same as you do after passing all the right hurdles, and so do the LEPS. And he reeives his 4 bars the same as you do after even more hurdles, as do the LEPS.

With regards to the basings issue, I've already argued towards lifestyle parity on base being the focus of my advocation. My previous post to fooey was to highlight a point of disparity.

The Lite's out.....all other comments (no doubt repetitive) towards LEPS not having the right to equal career rewards, please refer to previous posts which I think make for at least some table discussion and not immediate dismissal. Here's another breadcrumb that I will throw in: CP 2 was a course designed to convert the flight engineers to pilot positions, the course for conversion paid for in its entirety by the company (so no financial risk, as some would say). They had as many hours flying aircraft (as opposed to operating, which none of us can touch because they are all walking encyclopaedias of systems operation) as a cadet did coming out of ADL. Are they as such cadets...and entitled to local scales? Or are their expat A scales still valid?

<fin>

Mullah

You don't seem to get it do you. Cathay does not pay its expats like other expats in HKG, i.e we do NOT get the Housing Allowance or Education Allowance as a lump sum to spend as we see fit. Leases, receipts etc are all required, in your world my friend the ICAC and Company would be all over you like a rash and I think your next home would be courtesy of the Correctional Services Department.

Wake up! You are not being done down you have EXACTLY the same basic salary and flying pay!!!, Take away your green eyes.

Kitsune,

Is it really fair for an expat to live abroad and not be able to invest. You really expect expats to return home after 15+ years with nothing to show for but a useless provident fund??