Why YOU should join the AOA!
 

A lot of people don't want to join the AOA due to the associations pathetic performance during the last few years - especially under ST who thought a round of golf with the boss would work it all out.

Granted the AOA might not be much use when it comes to getting you a payrise anytime soon..
HOWEVER
When it comes to taking on the company for violation/misinterpretation of our contract the AOA still has a lot of power purely because these are legal matters and are not negotiable. However someone must bite the bullet do the groundwork and pay for the lawyer to sort these things out.
For that reason alone you should all join.

Its not neccessarily about gaining much - is about stopping the deterioration.

Here here!!!
Bring on the ney sayers though but before you all bag the crap out of this, please also add your solution to our problems and how you would negotiate without a union, so rant on after that!!!!

Here Is Another Reason..
 

The Standard - Hong Kong's First FREE English Newspaper

Hasn't this actually happenend before OUT of RUH ? , and the CAD okayed that one as well , its about time the CAD had some mud thrown at them and held in contempt , I have absolutely no respect for this GOVT dept , a bunch of cx pleasing idiots.....its goes on and on with this bunch . some days I wonder if this lot are owned by cx?:ugh:
STAND UP FOR YOUR CONTRACT , DONT LET IT GET WASHED ANY FURTHER DOWN THE TOILET THAN IT ALREADY IS

CAD

Civil Aviation Dept

Cathay Aviation Dept

HMMM?

2 simple reasons to join the AOA

1......it doesn't cost very much

2......it's the right thing to do.

So stop all the BS excuses and JUST DO IT.

Just ask a 49er what the AOA will do for you if things get tough.

You can count on the AOA for one thing only...inaction. :ugh:

oh boy will people ever get it
 

YOU are the bl@@dy AOA! I am the AOA! We are all the AOA! Even if you're not a member you're having an effect... by weakening the only association that the company will negotiate with (for better or for worse) and strengthening the company's position.

The AOA is not "them", it is not some abstract impenetrable monolithic institution, it is composed of a president (new, recently voted in) a General Council (recently voted in, not just HKG A scale captains but plenty of SOs/FOs/freighter guys/based guys, a veritable CX cross-section) and a membership which is YOU AND ME and the other pilots you see milling about at despatch!

I too do not like much of what "the AOA" has done in the past, and it certainly is far from perfect even today, but that's not the point; if you don't like what is going on, bl@@dy well join up so you can vote or better yet volunteer or get yourself on the GC and change things... otherwise quit your collective moaning! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Rant over. Breathing deeply now.

However, really chaps, stop asking what the AOA has ever done for you and start considering how YOU could contribute to our collective well-being... start by joining and getting involved.

The "AOA" is starting to sound like some sort of religion...youre saying that we should all discount the prior history of failure in the AOA, join up and take it on FAITH that things will get better?!?!

If you REALLY want to change things, join CX management, not some sycophantic Association. :ok:

A:=A...NO WAY!!

ILovePx:- you pathetic excuse for a FELLOW COLLEAGUE.

I hope you get what you deserve.:mad:

And what exactly is it that I deserve? Are you...dun dunnnn dahhh...threatening me?!?!?!

You must be part of the radical break-away sect of the AOA. If only you could channel that anger into fighting the company instead of saying yes all the time.

unfortunately with guys like you there is a chance that we'll all get what you deserve.

SCREWED


huh?

In response to joining the AOA.

First and foremost they have to entice me to join.

How???

Well what do they offer? Are they a good investment? After all I am putting my money into an association that is supposed to look after my interests. So I ask the question "Do they look after my interests?"

What are they prepared to do? What am I prepared to do for them in return?

In business I look for results. Plain and simple. If you don't perform them I look elsewhere. However with the AOA there is nowhere else to look, so this is hard.

I also look at the facts

1. Unions are legal.
2. Unions in HK have no legal grounds to do anything.

So where does that leave us?

Good question!

What has the AOA done to show me that they represent my views, listen to my opinion and would represent me if needed?

I will not answer that question here but if does promote some serious discussion.

I have watched the youtube video and listened to my fellow pilots but I am still sitting on the fence. You have not shown me why I should join the union.

Even with 56% of the pilot body behind you, what are you doing to show" just cause" to why I should join the union?

I know the unions up here in HK have no legal ground to stand upon to fight CX but please... please show some balls and listen to your members and attempt to resolve their issues.

Even with member number just above the 50% mark you can't sit back and claim that you don't have enough members. Be active and engage the management. Don't go into every battle claiming that you won't win, go into battle to protest the unjust. Go into battle to stand up for your members.

Doing this would entice me to join the AOA. Until then.. I will sit and watch you.....

At the moment I would rather join the Watsons' Water workers. At least they get their payrise!

No mate, you've got it the wrong way around... it is YOU who is making it sound like a sort of religion, some sort of unreachable, untouchable and unchangeable entity; a tiger that will never lose its stripes as it were. It will remain so until YOU join and make a difference! Urge your like-minded mates to join as well! If you don't like the direction the AOA or the company is taking then don't sit and whine on the sidelines, join up and try to push it in the direction you want!

ONLY if you are a member do you get a say: a vote, the chance to email your GC representative and voice concerns.

That's like an american voter saying that since the democratic party was once in favour of slavery, he will never vote democrat again... organizations CHANGE mate, especially democratically elected ones! You can't just sit and sulk forever because one or two General Councils and presidents ago they did something you didn't like! You should join not on the faith that it will change but in order to MAKE it change!

You certainly can't beat them, so join them!

I may be a little extreme, but in my opinion if you do not make the effort and accept the (rather small) financial cost of being a member of the only group the airline will negotiate with, then you have NO RIGHT TO WHINGE ABOUT CURRENT CONDITIONS.

Oh boy, I was ranting again. :bored:

IluvPx,
I am curious - why are you so anti AOA? To continue your religious metaphor, does an Atheist go around loudly condemning those with religious belief because God let the Atheist down in the past?

Of nearly all the bad things that have happened over my 16 years here I can't think of a single one that was caused by the AOA. CX introduced B scales, CX put a new contract in my mailbox in 94, CX created ASL in 96, CX degraded medical for new joiners from Jun96 onwards, CX said 'sign or be fired' to half of us in 99, CX fired 49 of our colleagues in 2001, CX failed to give payrises to B scalers for 6 out of the last 7 years, CX forced the end of the FACA, CX reintegrated(badly) the KA freighters, CX has recruited de facto DECs, CX has offered salary/conditions below normal parsimonius standards to ex O8 and then loudly proclaimed themselves as 'saviours' for reemploying them.

Now A scalers, B scalers, ASL employees, Freighter pilots, KA pilots, DEFOs and ex oasis pilots have caused - wait for it - none of our problems.

The AOA is merely the representative group for just over half the pilots - IluvPX, if you have really given up on CX and the AOA then I don't blame you for wanting to save the 1.25% in subs. I don't know why but I haven't given up yet - and I honestly do believe that we can make a difference....with support from the pilot body!!!!

I can't remember who said it, but a great saying I have heard "If you believe you can't change anything, you can't!"

Main Dog, you werent ranting, good points(except the whole dem party thing..). I appreciate your stance. Mine just happens to differ; however my dim view of the AOA is supported by it's dismal track record.

NC, you know im a fan of yours, arguing with you is like talking back to my parents. So excuse my insolence, but every "bad thing that happened over your 16 years" you attribute to CX and not to the AOA.

The company is in the business of making money. One way they do this is by reducing costs, lowering benefits, different pay scales, intimidation, and other questionable means. Is it ethical? No, but it makes Swire money and that is their job. They get an A+ for their work.

The AOA's job is to mitigate, if not prevent any loss of conditions. Ideally, they should be improving our contracts, pay, time off, etc. If you were to grade the AOA on this, what would it be? Might as well start at an F- and work up from there...you wont have far to go.

According to you CX just imposed all of these reductions to your conditions over the last 16 years. Where was the AOA? They either a) attempted to stop the company and were unsuccessful, or b) colluded with the company. The net result was still the same. A steady decline in pay and conditions of service ever since they agreed to B-scale.

Even if they didnt agree to, for example, B-scales, and it was imposed instead by the company, then whats its purpose? The AOA is not unlike the UN. Something happens, they rally the troops, and write "strong" letters expressing their discontent, but in the end, accomplish nothing. Its not the subs that bother me, its the chronic inaction.

So ask yourself this, how has being an AOA member for 16 years benefitted you? Is the package for a new guy joining today equal to or better than the one you joined on? What do you have to show for those 16 years of subs and support?

Solution? A union with competent, professional people running the shop, and strong alliances with the FAU, HAKEO, etc. A full-time lawyer and professional negotiator, not some pilot who once watched a "how-to" video on corporate negotiations, during a pacific crossing. The only way to go is up...

You're right, the AOA doesn't have the greatest track record (although they would argue that things would be even worse without them, and that might just be true).

We agree, and we've flogged that dead horse long enough. Now move past that point: what are YOU going to do about it? Sitting on the sidelines and complaining will make not ONE WHIT of difference: if you do that, you've already lost.

Joining, on the other hand, and getting a vote, voicing your concerns to the GC, returning surveys and generally making your voice heard and trying to IMPROVE the AOA (which, once again, is the ONLY organization CX will deal with), just MIGHT make a difference.

You make some good points: why not bring them up with our GC reps?

There is fresh blood in the GC and a new guy sitting in the president's chair. Please guys, give it some consideration... I think the AOA (in other words WE) are ready to turn over a new leaf.

MD (gets off soapbox)

its alive I tell you!!
 

Aaaahh, the canuckster speaks....the power of AOA juice eh? Time to get ooot!:{

Agree~~and then a couple of "..we DEMAND.." letters should be send to CX..with a friendly but stern "..if you don't comply,we WILL strike!!"

That should get their attention...:)

Slapfaan
 

Ok lads, I'm sure most of you are aware of this, so this one is for those that were not aware....NC, correct me if I am wrong (being an ex-GC representative - or unless the Company has changed it's methods of negotiation)...

I spoke with PV, our No:2 on the GC regarding negotiations, in particular, I asked why doesn't the AOA use solely professional negotiators and lawyers to act on behalf of the membership instead of the GC reps doing all the talking and was told that neither our DFO nor our GMA recognise either (professional negotiators or lawyers) as authorised representatives for the pilot group. PV explained that even when JF is sitting in on the negotiations, if he (JF) disagrees with anything pertaining to legality, he cannot just open his mouth and say something - he needs to look at PV, ask him to stop the negotiations and step out for a few minutes to discuss things privately.

Doing things such as will just add fuel to the fire that we are trying to harness rather than stamp out.

I love it when guys like COKEZERO criticise the AOA and later ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED.

there's a word for guys like you.


:mad:

I love it when guys like COKEZERO criticise the AOA and later ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED.

there's a word for guys like you.

Australian !!!!!!!!

Have to be Australian! That’s a bit rough!

Clearly the company is not executing the COS in the spirit in which it was written. Direct entry Captains, direct entry FO’s on base, Bypass pay issues. The list is extensive and has all been mentioned before.

I choose to join the AOA for a year to 18 months and see if any positive outcome is likely.

Otherwise time to disband and move on.

Possibly to Emirates.

Cheers :ok:

ACMS

"ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED"
I understand that my COS have been dictated by the AOA and I have to accept the good and bad aspects of it, even if I am a member of AOA of the CPU still doesn't change anything.

And by saying that do I still sound like an Aussie? Never been called an Aussie before. I'll think about that one. I don't know whether to take it as a compliment or not?

so COKE man, do you always allow other people to do your bidding for you?

Because that's what the AOA does.

Maybe you could try to do the right thing for US ALL and JOIN up.

Who knows, you might be able to actually affect an outcome.

Now wouldn't that be something to tell your grandchildren about.:ok:

For the benefit of us all...please list these "improvements" the AOA has negotiated on our behalf. Be sure to use LARGE font and double spacing, so it doesnt look so pathetic. Im sure it wont take you more than a minute to run through this extensive list.

iLovePX

You still on here ranting about why your too cheap to join the AOA?

Still happy to allow them to negotiate on your behalf? Why don't you go see the GMA and ask if he can negotiate a personal contract, just for you since your so unhappy with what the GC are obtaining...

Then you can let us all know how well you did......

IluvPX,
sorry to introduce more rational debate onto this forum;-)

I have been thinking about what you have said. I have seen/known the starting positions of both the AOA and CX in several negotiations since 1999. If our starting position was 100 and CX's was 0, we have invariably ended up at position 5-10. So yes I could make an argument for not wasting your 1.25% - but then again, was the CX starting position affected by knowing they had to come up against the AOA? Would the CX position without the AOA be -10? Given the weak position the AOA has been in for the last 5 years it seems that maybe that is true as the company has only seen fit to endow some of us with a single 3% payrise to cover 7 years of inflation/exchange rate deterioration.

So is the end result of 5 to 10 worth being in the union? I think so. What I do know is that the AOA has stamped out many small injustices over time - they are not headline wins but they help!

I liken the AOA role to that of Hawkeye Pearce in the TV show MASH (Korean war/medical comedy). The generals keep sending troops off needlessly to their death - all Hawkeye can do is to try and save as many lives and limbs as possible. It seens a pointless task as more men will be sent to their death, but is one life saved not still worth it?


So no there are no Headline Wins from the AOA - but I do honestly believe things would be much worse were it not for our support and involvement in the AOA. After all we are in a business utopia - corporate profits are more important than all other considerations - and managers here have heard of HRM but think it has something to do with monitoring your pulse during exercise, not dealing with your staff!

Hellenic Aviator,
good question! Yes CX once made it impossible to negotiate with professional negotiators. Not sure of the 'official' status of using non pilot negotiators today though. But to answer can I give you an analogy(sorry, rhetorical question as I am going to anyway;-)

No matter how good a negotiator, how much will you get for a used car thats worth $5,000 if your potential purchaser is only prepared to pay $5 - you prove that all the same model cars are selling everywhere else in the world for more than $5,000 and in fact their prices are rising! Your buyer says "take it elsewhere and sell it there then" - what do you do? Bring in a skilful negotiator? If you can't move the car, or don't want to move the car, how do you convince him to pay more?

What do you think finally got KA their deal last year given they have probably spent the better half of the last decade or so in contract compliance? KA remuneration was not reward enough to retain their pilots - out of economic necessity KA had to improve their pay (about equal to CX!) just to slow the hemorrhaging.

I don't believe professional negotiators, or lack of them, are the problem. You need something to bargain with, something to trade. So far we have given them goodwill for most of this decade and are now reaping the ample rewards (sarcasm alert!) If you want something you have to make what they offer cost less than the alternative - simple economics!

Pretty small toy.

Something a person with a NARROW MIND like yours should get.

:D

And maybe a dummy too, so you can spit it out when the going gets tough.

ACMS

As I am not part of the AOA I can have to let other people do my bidding. Do I get upset when they fail to get me a payrise - Yes. Do I get upset when they fail to uphold by bypass pay - Yes. Do I get upset when they can't adhere to roster practices - Yes. Do I get upset when they let the company walk over good pilots - Yes. Do I get upset when the AOA should be "Working to Order" - Yes. Do I work my G Days - NO!!!, Do I keep an open mind - YES.

I do not want to put my money into an Association that does not listen to my views. When I have approached various CG Members I'm told that they are working on solutions to various problems that are mentioned (Openly) in general conversation around the CX corridors. When asked again some months later about the same problem I'm told that "It's not worth our time to follow up on such issues" and "We would never win" or the classic statement "We don't want to rock the boat".

This is not impressive by any means.

Am I a member of a Union? Yes - I choose to keep my membership in my home country. I still get my legal rights - if I ever have an incident in Japan. The insurance is a joke in HK.

Do I support the AOA - no. It's great to have faith in a system but over the years of constant bickering, back-stabbing, lying etc ... I have lost faith in such a system.

If the AOA ever wanted to go on strike with CX - I would support them. And if the AOA ever wanted to go ahead with contract compliance - then I would also support them. The big question is would they?

And to be brutally honest - if CX pilots went on strike the company would fire everyone. However they would never get pilots to work for them ever again. Two mass firing in less than 10 years! The Swire & Cathay name would be mud in a lot of people eyes. Those people being pilots and customers.

So I continue to watch from the outside and see what happens to my contract and see what the AOA is going to negotiate away. This is a great time to take everything from the company. The ex-Oasis boys aren't going to stay long. Then we are still in the same position that we were last year. Lack of pilots and more planes coming.

The whole DEC's and lower pay conditions is another matter for another topic.

I have thought about your Aussie comment - Not a bad title but do I have to support their cricket team? The women's beach volleyball team I could support.

I DIDN'T MAKE THE AUSSIE COMMENT.

itwilldoatrip DID


I had a much worse name for people like you.:D

Do you live in HK? Bought an Apartment perhaps? Renting a nice place perhaps?

Fanbloodytastic Housing scheme we have isn't it?:ok:

Yep that's right, OUR AOA negotiated that little gem.

So stick that in ya pipe and smoke it.

Nothing will improve unless the membership level improves. Not joining because nothing gets dealt with is easy but not a solution.Things will only move forward once we all stick together.

Strong unions exists in countries where membership is mandatory by labour laws. The problem isn't the AOA as an entity, it`s us not believing we can make a difference by all joining. Your personnal views won't always be satisfied by the union's decisions, but that's the story for every unions in whatever industry. Read about the recent decision by the Boeing workers' union to delay a strike, though the vote was for it at 87%! In their case however, people don't quit the union and thus they keep their negociating power.

I too am frustrated at the lack of progress from the AOA. But it`s to be expected when only half of us are members.

ACMS,

Want more guys to join the AOA? How about you stop all this bitter bile you like to throw at every non AOA member.

Get over the fact that some guys don't want to join, that's life. Your not helping the cause when you write and abuse anyone with a different view on the subject.:ugh:

Sticks and stones mate. People that live in glass houses ............etc

My comments hurt you that much or are you just feeling GUILTY?

Guilty about what? Do you mean am I in the AOA, then yes I am, but your childish rant at every non member is getting very boring. With regard to sticks and stone and glasshouses, not sure where you going with that on but I bet you don't either.


How about you stop ranting for the holy month of Ramadan. Do us all a favour.


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

ACMS

I apologize about the Aussie comment. You were right - you didn't say it.

ZeroCoke

NO I wont give up.

WE ARE WAY TOO SOFT ON THESE "HANGERS ON"

Time to kick ass and take names buddy.

OK, lock and load.........let's go.:}