jonathon68
 

Well said.

A bit on union politics....the general direction of the GC is driven by the executive. I believe that the majority of the GC want to go in the direction espoused on PPRUNE. The question was, is and always will be, what do the majority of the membership want? It is very easy to ignore PPRUNE, emails etc as being the 'squeaky wheels'.

Words or action?
I can understand and empathise with westcoast's view that CX will only react to people leaving. Call me an optimist but I still believe action will work. If nothing else it gives our discontent a focus.

Membership % too low
The recent success the FAU had in delaying the unilateral changes to their medical CoS shows that action will work, IMO. And I think their membership % is not dissimilar to ours. So maximum membership is not necessary.

Fear factor
Do pilots really believe that CX would fire 50 people again? No one is that stupid ( I think!) Do you really want to live your life in fear of what CX might do if you don't continue to bend over?


A suggested way forward.
We have two problems to deal with: the AOA and CX.

The AOA
There will be another vote for GC members and for the position of President in a little over 6 months. Now is the time to search your conscience and decide whether it is time you gave some of your time. It is no longer a HKG based job. In fact in the 06-07 GC it was over 50% based and commuters. So don't use your commuting or basing as an excuse to pass the baton to another....if not you, then who?
If we have a good turnout of GC nominations we can vote for those members most likely to represent our own point of views. Similarly if we can get 2 or more nominations for president then at least we can be sure to have someone that represents the majority's view.

CX
Contract compliance will work if all pilots do it. What won't work is it being done piece meal by some and not others. I know this is not a popular idea but I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008). The difference between a compliant workforce and a contract compliant workforce will be more stark than a gradual transition from individual to collective contract compliance.

A new GC/President will have a more powerful industrial weapon to present to the membership - contract compliance. It is hardly going to get anyone fired and there really is no excuse for NOT carrying out contract compliance.


We need to work together on this...no basings vs HKG vs LEP vs KA vs Freighter etc. There is no sub group of pilots that hasn't been screwed by past actions/inactions of management. So, lets start planning ahead...

Good morning everyone,

No ACMS, you are wrong. Our salary did not change to accommodate the lack of the 13th month. So now that you are joining the ranks of the informed, perhaps you will make this a priority issue? You seem so adamant in rectifying the wrongs.

Do I think that CX would fire some more pilots, yes they will. They are so frustrated with the current situation, but haven't a clue what to do. Everytime their hands are tied, it is like poking the dog with a sharp stick. It bites back.

I think the real turning point will be the move to onshoring. Based labour laws are very specific and the courts have no qualms about enforcing them. Wrongful dismisal comes with a real price.

So, no gentlemen, I have no interest in contract compliance nor do many of my colleagues. As I have said on many occasions, many talk a great line when they are anonymous, yet turn and run when the chips are down.

Instead, why don't you focus your efforts on returning the 13th month to the based pilots.

Cheers!

NC,

I don't usually have any problems with anything you say but this

" I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008). "

is totally wrong. The more people that practice unofficial contract compliance, the more the pressure will build up quickly. Give CX time to train more crews and get their act together the less effect it will have. Unofficial CC means that talks are still an option.

Your statement seems to intend to make the present GC as ineffective as possible.
Thanks!!:confused:

B Scale C&T
 

Without giving away too much anonymity, I was one of the original B Scalers of '93. I have years of military check and training and as a professional pilot feel the need to advance my career. However, as one of the original B Scalers, I will never advance my career professionally within Cathay. Why any B Scaler would ever join the C&T department is beyond me. Not only are B Scalers offering their services at a reduced price, they are now offering their C&T services at an even lower price. Why would you take time from your family to write ERAS, have a G day limited roster and put up with extra C&T meetings to earn less than an A Scale line Captain? Please don't come up with the "I'm a professional", "Want to give something back" routine. Want to give something back? Donate your time to the Air Cadets, they would love to hear from you. Want to be a professional? Let the S/O program the box if it's your sector. Teach him/her something you've learned over the years.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.

Westcoast: That's why I said correct me if I'm wrong bud.

I wasn't sure of the position of US based A scale salaries BUT I do know for a FACT that Oz based B scale salaries were adjusted up by 1/12 th to allow for the 13th month loss. This happened about 5 to 6 years ago if I remember correctly. Maybe NC could confirm this?


Anyway there is a lot more at stake than giving Based crew their 13th month, that's only 1 of a lot of issues.

Without giving away too much anonymity, I was one of the original B Scalers of '93. I have years of military check and training and as a professional pilot feel the need to advance my career. However, as one of the original B Well said guy.

And about CC, it begins when you get hired at a company. I don't care where you work, I don't care where you live. It is simple math people. :ugh:
If you don't defend your contract from day one, how do you expect to hold on to it? Any work you do above and beyond the call of duty hurts you and your fellow collegues. It is that simple.

If you need the Union to tell you that you have to start contract compliance you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You think UPS guys are now answering their phone on their days off in case the company needs "their help". You think they are coming in on their days off to test out the new RT/PC in the sim FOR FREE! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: ...blood and brains but still ... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Do you sometimes feel like you are in a twilight-zone episode? If you do, you will see me standing next to you with a bewildered look on my face... :hmm:

Know your contract - Period :D

BusyB
 

I didn't make the present GC ineffective - it just is! What have the GC achieved in the last 18months? A revote on RP07 when it didn't go the way the GC wanted it, and CoS08. Like 1993, 1994, 1999 and 2001, CX management is just imposing(CoS08) what they want after appearing to give their position an air of 'legitimacy' after 'appearing' to negotiate.

BusyB its not a personal attack - I was no more effective on the GC than I am now off it. The AOA executive thinks it is smarter and wiser than the membership and will continue to ignore the majority wishes; the majority of the membership and the majority of the GC. The AOA executive think they are doing what is best for their membership....but that is not their decision to make. The AOA is supposed to be a democracy. It is time it started acting like one.

NC
 

You're still missing the oint of what I said. By telling guys to save CC until sometime in the future just gives CX the out they need to cover up their shortages NOW.

HNY

Yep


cc Now

Have you been drinking?
 

NC, you usually make alot of sense. I cannot see any valid reason whatsoever to delay CC. Personally, I have been maintaining CC from day one through good times and bad. Why would one do anything different? I have never needed the AOA for personal direction re CC. Are people so stupid as to wait for the AOA to ring a bell?

Shooting yourself in the foot comes to mind. We will just have to wait until 2016 for B scales to become A scale. Sorry not the P-fund though.

BusyB, WNC
 

BusyB,
seems my idea is 'controversial';-) It was seriously considered in 2000 but majority rules (mostly).
WNC, sorry, not drinking. Some of my ideas are obviously 'out there'!

NC, rarely do I disagree with your (even out there) ideas, but I'm with the others on CC now.

Helping them now is like accepting a roster change that helps you get home earlier and helps them out of a hole today, helping them defer a particular mess to tomorrow's crew.

Hey, what do I know?!

Five Green
 

Quote:

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However if I was in management I would then hire direct entry trainers on the grounds that I cannot fill the position from within.

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Maybe you're right... maybe that's what management would have done. But they would have had to weigh the costs of doing so first. From a financial perspective, they might have considered it cheaper to just offer a better deal to the boys from within (A-scale?). From an industrial perspective, I highly doubt that the company would be silly enough to re-visit the mistakes of the past, and start another ASL. So on second thought, I don't agree with you.

Quote:

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So we actually need the training roster full of AOA members so that we can bring some reality in to the training system. It is possible to maintain your morals and be a trainer some have managed it !!!

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On this point, I somewhat agree with you (initially)... we do need AOA members on the Training Team. But what we didn't need was for guys to continually volunteer their services to the company while we were trying to negotiate a better deal. By doing so, you were only undermining the efforts of the negotiators. Instead of empowering the AOA, you reduced their ability to negotiate. Why could you not have waited until an acceptable deal was negotiated, and then have gone in to fix the training system? Win-win? Look at what we have now... thanks to you guys taking the pressure off the company! I wonder if all the FO's and SO's will see the benifit you guys have provided to the training system... while they wait years longer for their promotions?
From a moral perspective... I wonder how one sleeps at night, knowing full well that they are responsible to a large extent for the imposition of COS08? It's a war... you can't fight for both sides!

Contract Compliance
 

NC raises an interesting point......

I know this is not a popular idea but I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008).

I think NC is proposing taking CC to another level. CC would be a bargaining chip up for sale. The GC would turn compliance on and off and hope to see a marked resultant change in OTP/crewing. NR would then have to decide what price he will pay for such compliance.

The advantages would be, CC would be short lived, a week perhaps. I noticed in 2001 MSS was most effective in the first few days and then guys lost interest as the "policing" of compliance started to be divisive amongst the Pilot Body and the Company's Countermeasures started to bite (interviews in the Headland post-landing anyone?). Further it would be interesting to publish the dates when CC is on or off and see if the travelling public adjusted it's travel plans.

The disadvantages are that CC may make no difference to the operation and NR decides he can live with it.... bluff is called... Guys like WNC, who have been in CC "from day one" will find it difficult to turn on the co-operation. Equally, should an agreement be reached with NR he will have paid for your co-operation and will expect it... again WNC would struggle here...

WNC; if you have been in CC since day one... why did you join CX.. and how many aircraft have delayed or grounded...??

LC

If no B scalers would have taken training to start with then all of you would be on A scale as simple as that period.

There is much fuss surrounding CC but I think you will find in most airlines pilots will only go as far as what the contract dictates, ie CC is a case of operations normal. I get the impression that CX has survived on good will for many many years.

You must have read my mind.:eek:

It should NOT be, bend over backwards, then if negotiation fails, work within the contract!!!!

Has the CX pilot body really been taking it up the arse that long? :(

MAX:cool:

Yep...........And a few decide to "help themselves" by working G days and taking training postions.

Exezy
 

Do you work for CX?