What's the culture at Cathay like?
 

Hello everyone!

Wondering if I can get some feedback on this. I'm concerned about the "culture" at Cathay. I have heard that the folks at the training department don't particularly care for American pilots; that the culture there is very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style; that you're under the microscope all the time, even after getting hired; that you can be fired anytime if a couple of captains don't like you;that you have to be real submissive to the training/checking and line captains and thick-skinned in response to their egotistical treatment of you; that if you have strong "Republican/ Conservative" views you'll get put down; and that during training you're basically on your own - no real help during training, but lots of checking. Now, while I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing. I'm not trying to cause arguments here, but I'm not sure I can handle that kind of culture and don't want to end up at a place that's not suited for me or that I'm not suited for it.
:confused:
Thanks in advance for all the feedback.

Go to the market, buy a big button and sew it to your lip for the duration of training. Remove only to say "OIC" at intervals. Read up the detail of every training trip beforehand. Everything you do will be minutely recorded. The final line check consists of four sectors unless you've made a little boo-boo sometime in the sim in which case you will do two final line checks.
If you make it to final line check, don't expect a pat on the shoulder with "OK, that'll do; now let's go and have a chat." The Star Chamber will then analyse your training record and THEY decide if you've passed or not.
Watch what you say in the company bar at Cathay City. CX managers are accustomed to a non union environment and do not take kindly to adverse comment. Do not ever throw a handful of peanuts at one.
At times the company has an unfortunate ethos and I know of some perfectly capable pilots who have left doubting their own ability to fly.

Having said all that, CX have some good, caring trainers and, If your face fits, you will be given extra sectors to learn to do it exactly 'The Cathay Way'.
They were a good career airline and top quality outfit who demand high operational standards.

Don't let me put you off - Have a go!

btw I believe they used to ask about light signals in the interview questionnaire (computer, Ballard, must answer before next Q) could be out of date on that.

Food Chain
 

Training dept is fine, it is the checking department. Being American, expect low scores for your RT even if you have a degree in linguistics.

“very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style” that is one way of putting it. Depends on which fleet you are on. The 747-400 is the intolerable fleet for F/O’s. Numerous A**hole Capt’s on that fleet. Mostly checkers. I guess I will hear from them. Know of some F/O’s that went head on with a Senior Checker and now not suitable for command.

Remember it is a Captain’s Airline.

“Under the microscope all the time” If you join as an S/O, you will be jumping through hoops for the next 10-15 or so years (S/O, Junior F/O, F/O, Senior F/O, Capt). At any time you could be held back because of something on a Check or in the Sim. Do something wrong in the Sim (while not even your Sim), it can be marked on your file. All files are reviewed by management before upgrade, anything they don’t like, you may/will be held back. Automatic progression is not guaranteed.

Yes you can be fired at anytime. Ask the 49ers. If you have problems in the Sim on an upgrade (S/O to J F/O or joining as an S/O), you will be asked to leave. If you say something wrong or speak your mind to the wrong person you can be targeted. Example: Flying Manager picked up a wine bottle and an F/O stopped him for swinging it. Scene ensued. The last words of the Flying Manager was “I’ll have your job” and he did.

Sit there, shut up and you will be fine. You must realise, Cathay invented flying. As long as you have that attitude, you will be OK.

Don’t speak your mind, it will be held against you when you upgrade, even if your flying file is fine

“I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing.”
Like I said, the 744 is the most dissatisfactory fleet followed by the Airbus. Not sure about the 777. Don’t think new joiner join on that fleet.

I am sure others have different views but the culture is, shut up, do your job. Don’t voice your opinion when at work and to whom when not at work (if you are based in Hong Kong).

Like I said, it’s a Capt’s airline. Captain’s will always receive higher marks in the Sim and on Checks than the F/O. It’s just that way.

It depends on which pair of glasses you look through and I am sure you will get different opinions. If you are on the old A Scale and get paid very well with all the benefits and a good provident fund, you will have good things to say, same if you came from a C172 and now flying a wide body.

Industrial fear is a well established at Cathay.

Oh yes, we are just in the process of cutting your pay.

Just know where you are on the food chain and you will be fine.

and I got paid a lot of $$$$ on the A-scale

I came from a C172 and I wear the same glasses as you are Mr. Bloggs.

I expected the worse when I started and wasn't disappointed.:yuk: :yuk:

this would be a fine company, but "training" is just a mess, it is really extremely hard to take sometimes.

the system is so unfair, you won't trust your ears in the debriefs,trust me..

keep in mind that upgrading is a gamble, if they don't like your face for whatever strange reason,you are out.

Culture in general or towards DEFO pilots?
 

Everything you have written is very interesting. Is this particularly towards DEFO/DESO pilots or maybe North American based pilots or everyone?

Are you also saying the upgrade to Captain/command is not necessarily by seniority order or what your seniority can hold. Correct? Management can deny your upgrade for other than documented performance? It seems a little shady.....

May I dare ask if it is aimed any one race???

Don't believe everything you read :=

DEFO’s will have hoops to jump but not as many as an DESO. CX does not discriminate on who they target. If you fail to know your place in the food chain/speak up, you will be targeted.

CX has been known to fail J/FO’s on their upgrade to F/O, just to hold them back on lower pay and less leave. The check ride was passed but the Review board found otherwise. Same goes for any upgrade.

Command upgrades are followed by seniority however when your time comes and you are not a good bitch, you will be found unsuitable for command and passed over by more junior members. This is a process to put you back in your place (on your knees bent over). Some resist but all get into position eventually.

I agree with Preset, don’t believe everything you read, especially from CX. If they are talking, they are lying.

Like I said, know your place in the food chain and you will be fine. If you can’t be a good bitch, then it may not be the place for you.

Just come in with eyes wide open.:sad:

Very interesting
 

Wow, I appreciate all the input... Very interesting stuff... Doesn't sound like a real happy place to work... I'm not sure that I can be "on" all the time...sounds like every day is like your initial interview... Do alot of guys leave? Have the check airmen ever lied in their critique/evaluation of someone just to trip him up?

Thanks again for all the feedback.

To be fair Bloggs, you should have added that this Flying Manager is no longer the Flying Manager, nor is he still employed by the company.

So I guess there will be a few resignations soon judging by the comments and replies.
Why are you still there? Why not leave to a better airline? Why work in a job that treat you like that?

Mr Bloggs,

You could not be more right on! Much about CX is so unique and great, it is a real pity the "eat the young" mentality fear and intimidation rule the company. I have never seen such a place, nothing like it in the US.

shame on you all, frightening the guys like this......................
Cathay is made up like any other airline...95% nice guys and a few jerks % A#*Ho%es, plus the odd psychopath. It tends to be hard for Americans because you are only accustomed to the US system which assumes everyone is a nice guy unless he try's real hard and manages to prove he's a complete dick .....................Cathay just never starts from that assumption.......................

Many people leaving.......................No

why?? ..................Money............we also make a profit every year, so you don't have to worry about being furloughed with the 7 year industry cycle

still the US industry is recovering now so no need to suffer the humiliation of the Cathay training......................till the next downturn, have fun !!!

People leaving? - yes, some are, not a lot - prob more to do so in the future. Why are they leaving? For a variaty of reasons of course. One reasons without doubt is the fact that CX is more checking than training - and yes CX is MORE checking than training compared to other airlines. Eg. the high number of failures during upgrades (the dudes have not gained enough positive training but rather negative "training" through checking) - sad, yes. CX would be such a better airline if they entered year 1980+ and changed the current philosophy, which simply does not belong in aviation.
Hong Kong, Polution, prob also a factor - though Im not personally to bugged about that.
So why are they staying? Pay is ok, but nothing out of the ordinary compared to the "national" carrier in Europe (prob also the US). Also a lot of the pilots in CX are from down under, where the pilotjobs are ****ty rewarded, and for them the CX deal is the best around (not a million miles from "home").

Anyways - dont leave (quit!) a fairly good job - but if not, definatly have a go here and judge it for yourself.

Best of luck
Y

Friend,

If the truth is scary, so be it. If you don't recognise the extreme absurtity of this company culture, you have only flown military or have lived with a raging alcoholic father (probably both).

If you are military, you wont feel the heat as you slide into a warming pot of water. You will be somewhat used to being jerked around, and childish politics driven by fragile egos (probably a good part of why you left the military in the first place!). It won't seem so bad because you will be getting more pay and have more time off. Remember, at this point in your career, you are probably looking for your final job, the rest of your life is a long time to sit in a boiling pot!

If dear old dad liked the booze a bit too much and had the indiscriminate temper explosion, you will feel right at home. You probably are used to pussy footing around the house, grateful that when a sibling is taking a beating the heat is off you, but never knowing when your next arse kicking is coming. If you were the step child of the family, you probably took more abuse than most. At CX this unfortunate soul is called a "Yank".

Yes, there are some great people in the training (checking!) department at CX. They, just like good old mom, will occasionally save your bacon, but sooner or later dad will find you.

It's not all doom and gloom. Put on a happy face, show proper respect, don't complain, and readily massage the ego of those training you , and you will probably be ok. Just remember you're in the cage with a gorilla while in training (which never ends here), and you are going to have to kick its proverbial arse. Oh, yeah, hope for a small gorilla.

Just don't screw it up, because if you decide to return to the mother land at some point the interviewers in the US have never experienced the "Cathay Way", and won't readily overlook a blemish in an otherwise impeccable record.

We have a training department?

I will say that the training at Cathay is very outdated. The regional US carrier were I worked for some time had ten times better training. Cathay definetely needs to open their eyes if they expect to grow to the size of a real airline. This small time bull****t mentality is just not going to cut it.

But, talk to guys that have been here for a while, and they will tell you how bad it used to be. So, seek comfort in knowing that it is changing for the better. The airline IS growing, and therefore can not afford to hang on to this silly immature training environment. These same old "famous" assholes that everybody knows of will have to eventually retire and new blood will step in and improve the training department.

As bad as some people make this place out to be, I caution you to listen to both sides of the story. That is the best advise I can give you. Every story has two sides. I can guarantee you that you will only hear one side of it from this web-board. It would be pretty hard to hear the other side unless you were there during one of these "horror" training stories, or you knew someone in the training department. I've also heard some stories which amazed me, but you won't hear them told here either.

Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.

Sqwak7700:Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.


Watch this space Sqwak7700... lots gonna be going.... and lots not going to be coming either....

Thanks for the info - not interested in CX anymore
 

Hi,

Thank you for all the responses... Looks like I really hit a nerve... Based on what I have read, and I know there are two sides to every story and to take things with a grain of salt, but I'm not going to my 2nd interview with CX... I don't think I'll be happy dealing with all the **** everyone has talked about... I have a descent job with plenty of seniority and union protection here in the U.S., and I'm making money also. Don't want to take any unnecessary risks. Again, thanks for all the info and good luck to everyone!

OK, guys, well done, frightened him off no problem, back to the bar for a few celebratory beers................don't want any of them american w@#kers joining our exclusive, overpaid club now do we .................................


hahahahah !!!!!!!!!!!!!

jett15, I would seriously question the value of union protection in US aviation.:sad:

Jett15,

As an american here at CX i will add my two cents. I would have to agree with Sqwak7700 and Sizematters. The other Gents on this board have a few points but by reading their posts they lead you to believe this place is terrible. It reminds me when i used to ride in a United or Delta jumpseat and listen to the guys complain when i was a regional guy. Its not a bad place and personally i would leave almost any U.S. flying jobs-especially any regional job! It does in fact have its differences from what you are use too. Its a much more disciplined operation. I wouldn't be walking around running your mouth off. I have not had any problems with any trainers/checkers or have been treated differently. Their are a few to watch for but you tell me an airline that doesn't? My grades have not been below anyone, infact i have done quite well and have been above average on most. Yes, upgrades depend on past performance so prepare yourself! They expect a lot from you so just put in a little work. Its worth it.

I would too like to know what guys are leaving and to where?? What is considered a superb job these days? Anything tied with aviation is vulnerable however i think i can expect to have a job in 10 years and make a very respectable living. Where are the paycuts i keep hearing about?? Im not one to believe everything i hear but its been publicly stated that once the issues have been ironed out with the DEFO's the company will talk pay. I hope that to be true but im not going to be walking around ranting pay cuts because i dont see it to be possible to accept. And yes, i know the past.

Jett15, you have to do what is best for you but making a decision on not attending the second interview based on a few pprune posts is just out right silly. Feel free to PM.

Good luck.

Couldn't agree more. I don't work there, have not even interviewed (was offered, but had to turn it down due to military commitments). But to pass up the offer of a 2nd round interview based on some internet ranting and raving is nuts. Hell, if nothing else, consider it a free trip to HK and a chance to practice your interviewing skills in, what appears to be, one of the most challenging interviews in the business. You'd pay big bucks to some outfit like AirInc for that kind of practice in the US.

You never know what might happen, especially given the current $hitstorm in the Mid East. You might just get the job, and might actually want to take it, if the US airline industry take another header. Just seems like you're passing up a golden opportunity. Of course, if you're that luke warm on working there, then CX will probably pick up on that in the interview anyway...:hmm:

My two cents as well
 

I think now that things are starting to turn around in the US, some of our "boys" might have had enough and might "return" to where they once came. Some might return to the left seat and that is BASED ON SENIORITY. Some will get widebody seats with their seniority back and be commanders in a few years. Some might leave for others that are hiring. I know some that are presently interviewing elsewhere. I think most of the "yanks" are waiting to see what comes from RP04/07, growth talks and the pay scale. I venture to say that there will never be mass exodus but there will be exodus by next year. As skibeagle said on page 1, keep watching this site. Things have to get better and in the check and training as well.:(

For a little sanity try reading j32drivers post in the NWApilots wife thread...

Holy Shi* do I work for the same airline?
I guess the 777 fleet is the best.:)
There are bad apples in any airline, we have a few but the majority are really good.
One of my pet hates is the yanks R/T, they do have rather a slack RT discipline, that works fine in the US but it doesn't cut it in Asia with up to 4 different nationalities in the flight deck talking to Tokyo control. Standard calls thanks.
................

Must be check and training talking. Now, is that "flap" or "flaps" 1/5/10/20/30. Is that 'final' or 'finals'. Standard??? If Cathay is 'standard' or has standard sop's, a lot has changed since I left. Note: Yanks singled out again. Oh well. I can't tell you how much better my life is without CX check and training; I mean checking. Carry on.

I must ask; much of the world sees Canada and the US as the same. Are Canadians seen in the same light as Yanks in CX?

...You're right. Some Japanese controller is gona get into a pronunciation argument when they have no clue on how to pronounce most english words themselves. Get a f-ing clue.

Where do you fly? ...Must belong to the "mandaitory" crowd. Brits and Aussies teaching Americans/Canadians how to speak english is like learning about sex from your parents. They might have been shagging since before you where born, but it certainly doesn't mean that they do it better. ;)

Think about this logicaly. Most of the world has no problem understanding the American English. It is the most widely spoken version. Get used to it and get over it. Jumping on some guy because he says "point" instead of "decimal" is idiotic. It makes you sound like the ass that you probably are. Let me guess, you go down to the bar and talk about what a great pilot you are? Actually, I take that back; you probably stay in your room and read Vol2P2 so you can regurgitate useless information to the other crew members on your next flight.

It cracks me up when these "RT wizes" get pissed off at pilots who check in with "hello" or "goodmorning". It is called C-R-M; maybe you'll hear of it in the future when you decide to join the rest of the world in implementing a concept that real airlines adopted back in the eighties.

Here is a "mandatory" english lesson for you. In the States we would call people like you "book smart". You can spit out all sorts of useless crap. But when the fitt hits the shan, you are the type that will crash with the book in your lap.:ugh:

7700, how instructive, you are so right. I have actually learnt a lot from Americans about speaking the English language. Especially from your esteemed president Dubya. What marvellous CRM that gentleman posesses.

Talk about shagging, I reminis with great fondness on several past type conversions in the US of A where this lovely American lady enquired of me; "honey, have you slimed yet". Alas, she had a big fanny, which is again a different perception in the land of the free.

Ah yes, I do miss that yankee drawl. Herbs are erbs, solder is soder, colour is color and my good friend Cecil is called Ceecil. I also remember being mugged in the car park of the LAX Marriott Hotel, where I was told after relinquishing my wallet to "Have a good day". Great CRM.

Judging by the arrogance of SQWAK's post it's not hard to see why some yanks have a hard time at CX.

Yeah, right...

The "point" is that "decimal" is the correct ICAO terminology, used by most of the world outside the good ole US of A. The yanks might get away with non-ICAO terminology within their own borders - it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow.

:rolleyes:

F-CUX, the British Empire may be dead but the breeding remains.

...Actually, most of the world doesn't give a ****t about such stupid little details. And, its only a few anal loosers at CX that have made a habbit out of harrasing pilots on RT. Most CX pilots see through that crap and act like we all should . But there always has to be someone that has to prove to everybody how much of an ass they really are. Every airline has them, CX isn't the only place where they exist. These are the same people who will probably scream at their co-workers when they screw up. I can just hear you now; "...This is how the book tells you to do it..." Nothing new here :yuk:

I've flown in many places around the world, and as long as we all understand each other, nobody really gets all bent out of shape about it. :rolleyes:

working in china and complaining about non standard rt of americans at the same time is just another fine example how lost some of our guys are.

By concentrating on absolutely useless , irrelevant stuff, we at cx constantly waste a good part of our capacity ,which might be urgently needed elsewhere.

I never worked for an airline before where the pilots were so scared about doing something wrong, avoiding reporting of incidents at all cost as a result. But is it really that hard to understand that fear doesn't enhance performance ???

This training department has just one goal : to show how important there are.

But why is it an undisputable fact that there are so many airlines out there with a zero accident history AND a training department that doesn't put it's pilot under constant artificial threat ?

why is it that we have the highest upgrade/newjoiners failure rate AND well above industry average experienced guys joining at the same time ?


My suggestion would be that it is a great disadvantage that our DFO is not a pilot himself. There is simply no one within the organisation who is checking the checkers.

As an Englishman who was lucky enough to learn to fly in America and as a Training Captain with CX, I am astonished by the B.S. I see spouted on this thread.

Some of the finest pilots I have ever had the pleasure to fly with and learn from are Americans, who will be equally astonished by the stupidity of what is being written by these so called professionals complaining about CX culture.

Here at Cathay we do things in a set way - by the book. If you don't, it exposes you, not necessarily as a bad pilot but as an ill-disciplined pilot.

Does saying "flaps" or "flap" or "decimal" or "point" make you a better or worse pilot - NO, but given the choice of the two why not take the more disciplined option? What are YOU trying to prove?

Why is it important, hopefully you already know the answer? If not then I highly recommend Lt. Col. Tony Kern's book "Flight Discipline". Have a look at his chapters on Procedural Discipline and Communications Discipline. You might learn why we do it the way we do, and by the way, the author is American..

All the training/check Captains I know in CX have one goal and one goal only; to get the trainee through successfully and fairly, believe me no one wants to write a negative training report.

So to any Americans out there considering joining - go for it, don't listen to the minority come and show us that they are the minority. I for one look forward to having a beer with you and congratulating you on building the best damn aeroplanes in the world!!

Taipei controllers consistently say point instead of decimal, last flight into HKG, HKG controllers: point, not decimal.
Tokyo, point, not decimal, taxi into position & hold. Most all say good bye or good day. I keep hearing "cleared" to push (not pushback approved).
I like never asking for pilot reports on ride conditions. It is much smarter to climb up to the new altitude and get a crummy ride, then descend back down again, than to ask the guy up there getting a pounding what the ride was like. A good example of CRM that is.
Many things out here are not ICAO and it isn't just the Yanks.

Yes, there are some differences in the USA. Just like there are differences in many other ICAO countries. And, they are published, just like in other countries for you to read if you want to be prepared.
US is a bit different as there is much much more flying there. There are almost 19,000 airports in the US. 9,300 Air Carrier Jet aircraft and about 208,000 airplanes. Fresno has as many runways as LHR. One week out of the year there are more airplanes in Oshkosh Wisconsin than probably in all the EU.

But, when you climb into the US made 747 (I know you would really rather be in a 146), break out you US Jepps, get your PDC clearance and ATIS over Acars (all US) depart HKG while TDWR (US) watches over the weather, if it makes you feel better to bitch about America, do it. Generally this is known as xenophobia (except in the case of complaining about Dubya, then it is just good judgement).

Sure there are some dummies in the US. But, I don't think those drunks watching the "footie" over in the UK read Shakespeare when they sober up either. There are dummies everywhere.

When you complain about how bad the US is, how much have you actually seen? LAX, Maybe Vegas and a NY layover or two? Most of the complainers don't know anymore about the US than a redneck who watches the East Enders knows about the UK. So you watch "Cops" and think that is reality. Okay.

Don't like GW? Unlike Tony Blair, most Americans don't like him either and he didn't exactly win by a landslide. Don't like the current way the world is going? Neither do a lot of people. Think it is only the USA that behaves like that? Read a little history, things about colonial rule, what part of the world the last two world wars was started in, Ireland, the opium wars etc.. Every country has done things that weren't exactly right.

Now go visit the US. Go out to an airport and meet some pilots. Go meet a few airline crews. They probably will not start out telling you that you sound funny on the radio, and how Americans are much better pilots than your countrymen. Most of the Aussies, Kiwis and Brits are friendly too. Most are usually fairly well mannered. There are a few though, whose manners are poor. They think that it is polite to start out by insulting somebody elses country, telling him (or her) how bad every person and pilot from that land is and how much better and vastly superior the flying skills are of their countrymen. Maybe it makes those few feel smarter or superior. It really doesn't make you smarter or a better pilot, but whatever you think.

As far as Cathay, it is a great place to work. (Started by an American and an Australian with an American Airplane.) Just like any other airline, there are a few whose people skills are poor. But it is a good place to be. And, just like any other good airline, you are expected to do things the way they ask you to. No different than in the US or the UK.

Oh, and I am not a Yank either, just brought up to have decent manners by my parents.

With respect to that last comment, I am personally aware of at least 4 training/check Captains (Both HK, and UK Based) who have a well deserved reputation for having more than one goal..as you have prescribed, their actions rather than your sugar-coated description of the ethos at CX defies anecdotal as well as personal experience.
Perhaps rather than say CX operates in a "disciplined" fashion, it would be more accurate to describe the check and training function as "old school" or even "archiac"
As a new SO/FO/DEFO know your place...know that you know nothing, understand you are the bottom of the heap, know that CX aeroplanes fly differently to the ones (B777's and A330's) that you previously flew :hmm:

Now now, play nice children.

yes yes yes