Calling ATC, Speed control in Hongkers
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Calling ATC, Speed control in Hongkers
If the speed limit @ Melon/Mango is removed does this remove the 250 below FL110, been told yes and no.
Anyone, preferably an ATCer who can clarify with certainty.
Anyone, preferably an ATCer who can clarify with certainty.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Same, same heard both!
Another question for ATC HKG?
How can I come up for a visit/look around your facility? It all seems pretty swanky, not to mention busy. Purely for interests sake...... although I would specifically like to understand more about how and why decisions in apch control are made. Im not complaining... I think you do a damn good job.
A point on contact would be swell or if you wish send a private message.
Rgds
Another question for ATC HKG?
How can I come up for a visit/look around your facility? It all seems pretty swanky, not to mention busy. Purely for interests sake...... although I would specifically like to understand more about how and why decisions in apch control are made. Im not complaining... I think you do a damn good job.
A point on contact would be swell or if you wish send a private message.
Rgds
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SMOC
The answer is yes and no! I'm not in ATC but believe the two different controllers working either side of Melon may often have different plans regarding the sequence. In my experience you can be cleared high speed by Radar "cancel all speed control" and then on changing frequency be told to slow to 250kts or even 230kts or less. I am only guessing but think the two controllers are often too busy to consult one another about their requirements. In general be flexible at busy times but when it is quiet then the original "cancel all speed control" will likely apply all the way in.
The answer is yes and no! I'm not in ATC but believe the two different controllers working either side of Melon may often have different plans regarding the sequence. In my experience you can be cleared high speed by Radar "cancel all speed control" and then on changing frequency be told to slow to 250kts or even 230kts or less. I am only guessing but think the two controllers are often too busy to consult one another about their requirements. In general be flexible at busy times but when it is quiet then the original "cancel all speed control" will likely apply all the way in.
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I spoke to a controller about this and he said that if they give you 'high speed', they also mean cancel 250/FL110. He did admit they should really also say this seperately, but that this is not always the case. To clear up any misconceptions, just say you're cleared high speed to the next controller (and he'll ust give you a new speed if he so desires). They almost always give you speed control, unless late at night/ really early.
Oasis.
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Strictly speaking you have to listen to what was said i.e. "cancel melon / mango speed control"...no cancellation of 250kts below FL110..."maintain high speed" / "maintain present speed or faster until advised"...just what it says. Perhaps a problem is some controllers dont actually listen to what they say....if in any doubt, always ask. A help for you & I is the recently introduced ICAO phrase requirements of expressing any speed control instructions on change of frequency.
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This is my (HK Approach/Terminal Radar) interpretation :
Cancel ATC speed restrictions - all canceled from where you are to the runway.
Cancel speed restrictions at MANGO/MELON - just those canceled - the others still apply.
Cancel speed restrictions at MANGO/MELON and below FL110 - just those canceled - the others still apply.
The left hand does not know the intentions of the right - APR may change the order from what was expected depending on what happens further on ahead in the sequence. If we micro managed each aircraft through sectors we'd end up co-ordinating with each other more and have less time to do the main work. An issue at HK because of the poor (my opinion) airspace structure - not designed for flexibility.
The speeds used in the terminal sectors are often to do with getting aircraft in to an order and spaced a distance apart before passing them on to APR. We might often cancel the MANGO/MELON restrictions then apply 250 KTs close to the same point - the reason is that the published restrictions leave the speed reduction point the the crew provided they are 250 Kts by the point - this is not exact enough for a sequence. For example: some crews will slow at BAKER some just before MANGO - no way for us to know when it will happen.
The SOKOE / TD restrictions apply when you fly the approach yourself - if you receive vectors to final they don't because you're not then flying those parts of the approach.
The interesting thing about all this is that: if it's busy and we need to sequence then the published speeds may be what's required but not necessarily at the right time so we impose our own when we need it. If it's not busy then the published speeds aren't needed anyway
Cheers
digbat
Cancel ATC speed restrictions - all canceled from where you are to the runway.
Cancel speed restrictions at MANGO/MELON - just those canceled - the others still apply.
Cancel speed restrictions at MANGO/MELON and below FL110 - just those canceled - the others still apply.
The left hand does not know the intentions of the right - APR may change the order from what was expected depending on what happens further on ahead in the sequence. If we micro managed each aircraft through sectors we'd end up co-ordinating with each other more and have less time to do the main work. An issue at HK because of the poor (my opinion) airspace structure - not designed for flexibility.
The speeds used in the terminal sectors are often to do with getting aircraft in to an order and spaced a distance apart before passing them on to APR. We might often cancel the MANGO/MELON restrictions then apply 250 KTs close to the same point - the reason is that the published restrictions leave the speed reduction point the the crew provided they are 250 Kts by the point - this is not exact enough for a sequence. For example: some crews will slow at BAKER some just before MANGO - no way for us to know when it will happen.
The SOKOE / TD restrictions apply when you fly the approach yourself - if you receive vectors to final they don't because you're not then flying those parts of the approach.
The interesting thing about all this is that: if it's busy and we need to sequence then the published speeds may be what's required but not necessarily at the right time so we impose our own when we need it. If it's not busy then the published speeds aren't needed anyway
Cheers
digbat
