Pull your heads in
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes you are correct in that I have not seen the latest video, I will do so with great interest. I dispute that my attitudes are entrenched in anything other than a real want to get this dispute resolved. It hurts me when I hear management types saying 'what dispute?' They base that position on the good OTP and better bottom line at the moment. I wish they could grasp how much better the bottom line could be with a settled and more content pilot body. By the same token, I am sorry that the AOA cannot find a way to start the communication process with the company again. It would be difficult to meet the conditions apparently imposed by the company but it is probably the only real way forward and the only way to get some or all of the 49ers back with us. I am not against the litigation processes currently underway other than a personal dislike of lawyers and the growth of the litigious society we seem to live in. I just don't think they will be anything other than just hollow victories whoever wins the cases. I am only involved in the 'process' to the extent that I verbalise my feelings to anyone polite enough to listen. I have no feelings of angst and hold no feelings against those involved in the dispute on either side. If I have a fear it is that should the dispute escalate from the AOA side then the only possible response from the company would be to terminate more pilots - a lot more. I am happy that the AOA has been very circumspect in this area and will continue to be so. Thank you for furthering this very reasonable thread. There was a quite military style thread a little while ago which included quotes from various acknowledged military strategists which I found very illuminating. To paraphrase that, the most important maxim is the selection and maintenance of the aim. Maybe both sides have lost sight of that. Good luck to you.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Asia
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry to have missed OOs response!
6FU, by my calculation CX must then have about 500 pilot managers using your criterion. You forget there are a substantial number of quite senior guys who are not in management and now not in the AOA. To say they are without influence is incorrect. To say that they are all uncaring and selfish twats just counting their money is also incorrect.
The simple point is that whilst DT may be the focus of a lot of the vitriol, and one of the ultimate arbiters, he is somewhat removed from the day-to-day minutae of this issue and will remain so. The recent demotion of the jumpseater was signed in the prefects room not the headmasters office.
When PS was in charge, there were large handouts. One year saw a 20% increase in salaries. At the time, HK was seen as a risky bet and the large increments helped ensure top quality aircrew were retained and recruitment not hindered. The costs per seat km soared. Just have a look at the historical costs over the past 15 years. A large increase in the early 90s, a flattening and slight drop in the mid nineties and a continued fall over the past 5 years. Without this attention to cost, CX would not be here today.
Provident fund cheques for over HKD 30m were being written in the mid 90s. The highest HKD35m. You do the math.
Personality is one thing but without a robust business that can weather the huge cycles of uncertainty CX would be destined for the scrapheap and with it 1600 flying jobs.
Slimming down has created a lot of tension and the current complex web of contracts is unwieldy and not conducive to stability or, for that matter, a vibrant AOA.
Having said that, it is obvious that the focus on cost remains. A number of the guys retiring this year would have accepted extensions but the simple fact is it simply prolongs the cost bulge and is not an option. If recruitment was a problem they perhaps would have been extended but as Shortly points out, it is not.
The AOA leadership has accepted the fact that many of the 49ers will not be back and have been negotiating from that stance. The rank and file should know this.
The hole is deep enough already. Before the soil is used for reclamation elsewhere, stop the digging, turn down the volume and knock on the front door not the back door.
Noone is saying things are great but there is a greater chance of aggregate improvement in compromise and rebuilding trust. Litigation may help maintain the rage but it is not the road to Nirvana.
Pilots are being commoditised the world over. The test is whether the lot at CX is better or worse than elsewhere. If it is still better, on the whole, then we acknowledge the fact, bury the hatchet and work on sharing the upside and not focussing on reducing our share of the downside.
Open to more abuse!!
6FU, by my calculation CX must then have about 500 pilot managers using your criterion. You forget there are a substantial number of quite senior guys who are not in management and now not in the AOA. To say they are without influence is incorrect. To say that they are all uncaring and selfish twats just counting their money is also incorrect.
The simple point is that whilst DT may be the focus of a lot of the vitriol, and one of the ultimate arbiters, he is somewhat removed from the day-to-day minutae of this issue and will remain so. The recent demotion of the jumpseater was signed in the prefects room not the headmasters office.
When PS was in charge, there were large handouts. One year saw a 20% increase in salaries. At the time, HK was seen as a risky bet and the large increments helped ensure top quality aircrew were retained and recruitment not hindered. The costs per seat km soared. Just have a look at the historical costs over the past 15 years. A large increase in the early 90s, a flattening and slight drop in the mid nineties and a continued fall over the past 5 years. Without this attention to cost, CX would not be here today.
Provident fund cheques for over HKD 30m were being written in the mid 90s. The highest HKD35m. You do the math.
Personality is one thing but without a robust business that can weather the huge cycles of uncertainty CX would be destined for the scrapheap and with it 1600 flying jobs.
Slimming down has created a lot of tension and the current complex web of contracts is unwieldy and not conducive to stability or, for that matter, a vibrant AOA.
Having said that, it is obvious that the focus on cost remains. A number of the guys retiring this year would have accepted extensions but the simple fact is it simply prolongs the cost bulge and is not an option. If recruitment was a problem they perhaps would have been extended but as Shortly points out, it is not.
The AOA leadership has accepted the fact that many of the 49ers will not be back and have been negotiating from that stance. The rank and file should know this.
The hole is deep enough already. Before the soil is used for reclamation elsewhere, stop the digging, turn down the volume and knock on the front door not the back door.
Noone is saying things are great but there is a greater chance of aggregate improvement in compromise and rebuilding trust. Litigation may help maintain the rage but it is not the road to Nirvana.
Pilots are being commoditised the world over. The test is whether the lot at CX is better or worse than elsewhere. If it is still better, on the whole, then we acknowledge the fact, bury the hatchet and work on sharing the upside and not focussing on reducing our share of the downside.
Open to more abuse!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: As required
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear my little legs are so sore having had them smacked soooo hard!
Shortly, as you seem to be in favour of not exacerbating the situation, and feel that someone has to make the first move..........
Perhaps you might explain why CX management has refused to renew the freighter agreement, or indeed even talk to the HKAOA about it, said agreement runs out December 31st........
Talk about pouring petrol on troubled waters......
It is noted that you STILL haven't denied identified your position with CX......don't still play hockey do you?
Shortly, as you seem to be in favour of not exacerbating the situation, and feel that someone has to make the first move..........
Perhaps you might explain why CX management has refused to renew the freighter agreement, or indeed even talk to the HKAOA about it, said agreement runs out December 31st........
Talk about pouring petrol on troubled waters......
It is noted that you STILL haven't denied identified your position with CX......don't still play hockey do you?
The agreement was for 3 years and was due to expire 1st jan 2003, company gave 3mo's notice of cancellation of the contract, as was the requirement.
I can't see anything fishy there. Union and CX not talking, hence no new contract.
(Or am I missing another 'conspiracy'? LOL)
Oasis.
I can't see anything fishy there. Union and CX not talking, hence no new contract.
(Or am I missing another 'conspiracy'? LOL)
Oasis.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Traffic, great post, well articulated and very logical 9 out of 10 for posts. If any libellous comments come your way as a result of the post, well I wouldn't worry about them. Hey OO you tell me who you are first ok. By the by, I have played one game of field hockey back in 1973, our team were short a fullback and as I was a quite good soccer centre fullback got a crash course in handling rods, oops I mean sticks. Only played the one game, saw one of our team get a full on hit of the ball in the face - deliberate and not a pretty sight. We were playing a team of catholic brothers from a catholic priests college, could be giving a bit too much away there lol, what their player did was definitely not very charitable or christian though. And I don't see any conspiracy with regard to the freighters contracts. They seem reasonably happy and their attitude to the company could be rewarded soon - or at least that's what the dogs are barking in the Ikea gay bar.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shortly:
TRIPE
I can just see it now..."All the freighter pilots and non-AOA members will be rewarded with a bonus and the AOA members will be punished until their morale and attitude improves."
For an otherwise (professed) intelligent person, that is amongst the most asinine comments ever made on this forum. Not only feeble, but you have also just identified yourself. I will be sure to stop by and greet you next week... (taps nose).
TRIPE
I can just see it now..."All the freighter pilots and non-AOA members will be rewarded with a bonus and the AOA members will be punished until their morale and attitude improves."
For an otherwise (professed) intelligent person, that is amongst the most asinine comments ever made on this forum. Not only feeble, but you have also just identified yourself. I will be sure to stop by and greet you next week... (taps nose).
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What are you blithering about CU. It is a not so real secret that the freighters fleets are far happier and have better morale than the passenger ones. There will be new contracts sorted out for the freighter guys soon and all I am repeating is that it is expected to include a reasonable pay situation. How on earth did you read all that other stuff into that simple comment? OIC, paranoia rules ok. Don't you think that we all know that the freight carried us through the difficult time and is still doing well, don't you think they deserve a bit more? I certainly do.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shortly,
You obviously don't talk to many freighter crews. All but 2 of the Aussie Classic Captains are so "happy" they have requested a transfer to the pax fleet as FOs. The Brits are starting to look at their options as well.
Since when did anyone get a pay rise because they "deserve" it. If that were true teachers and nurses would be the most highly paid people on the planet. They are not, and nor will freighter pay change dramatically come the New Year.
You obviously don't talk to many freighter crews. All but 2 of the Aussie Classic Captains are so "happy" they have requested a transfer to the pax fleet as FOs. The Brits are starting to look at their options as well.
Since when did anyone get a pay rise because they "deserve" it. If that were true teachers and nurses would be the most highly paid people on the planet. They are not, and nor will freighter pay change dramatically come the New Year.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: the world
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LG
No comment on whether crews are happy or otherwise as, apart from a few that I know, I wouldn't have a clue.
I think you'll find that the Aussie freighter crews requested the transfer because the Tax Office here has just changed our income tax laws.
I think you'll also find that there have been many of pax fleet based crew in Aus that have requested transfers back to HK for the same reason.
No comment on whether crews are happy or otherwise as, apart from a few that I know, I wouldn't have a clue.
I think you'll find that the Aussie freighter crews requested the transfer because the Tax Office here has just changed our income tax laws.
I think you'll also find that there have been many of pax fleet based crew in Aus that have requested transfers back to HK for the same reason.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whoopsy there "Obso-observer"...I was banned from jet blast and still am for challenging a hormonal moderator, and will remain so, as my comments were not out of line, or context...but it looks once again the union side of you is showing...oh well....again folks lets bare all the FACTS of the hiring ban and be honest with ourselves...it is hypocritical, and non productive.
You got banned from JB because your posts were way, way out of line. To suggest it was because the moderator was 'hormonal' is just the kind of rubbish one might expect from an Alpha Male and is no defence at all. My colleague on Jet Blast deals with all kinds of nonsense in the course of her day and the fact that you were banned from JB, the most liberal of Forums, tells me that you got it all very wrong. Trying to blame your situation on the moderator is a low blow indeed. Grow up.
Blue Eagle - Moderator.
You got banned from JB because your posts were way, way out of line. To suggest it was because the moderator was 'hormonal' is just the kind of rubbish one might expect from an Alpha Male and is no defence at all. My colleague on Jet Blast deals with all kinds of nonsense in the course of her day and the fact that you were banned from JB, the most liberal of Forums, tells me that you got it all very wrong. Trying to blame your situation on the moderator is a low blow indeed. Grow up.
Blue Eagle - Moderator.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 29th Sep 2002 at 13:24.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Backspace,
The ATO's Determination Notice hastened the decision for many or was the final straw; however the point remains the (Classic) Freighter cannot be described as a happy bunch with high morale.
Some the statements that Shortly blandly flings around and would have us believe to be fact, need to be challenged; the state of the Freighter fleet is but one such statement.
The ATO's Determination Notice hastened the decision for many or was the final straw; however the point remains the (Classic) Freighter cannot be described as a happy bunch with high morale.
Some the statements that Shortly blandly flings around and would have us believe to be fact, need to be challenged; the state of the Freighter fleet is but one such statement.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To actually paraphrase what I said 'They seem reasonably happy...the freighter fleets are far happier and have better morale than the passenger ones'. I stand by those statements and consider them close to the mark. The point in the threads surrounding those remarks was the alleged conspiracy within the company with regard to the freighter contracts. I also made the point that the freighter guys deserve more, during your selective and innaccurate quotation you deigned to miss that. I love the way that the AOA pit bulls have their selective memory in full flight with regard to the freighter crews, I attended a meeting where that lovely word 'scab' was bandied about in regard to them, how they had to form their own association and weren't welcome (then) in the AOA. The AOA body split the CX pilot community when ASL was introduced and they are doing it again with the new joiners now. It was the easy option then and it is again now. It was a mistake then and it is a mistake now. But time will mend the latest mistake too, but not before some are driven away from pilot unions altogether. Anyone who thinks that the doubling and more of salary by transferring to pax fleet as FO, and the ATO latest finding aren't the reasons for freighter captains making that decision are deluding themselves.
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ironbutt my dear chap, no need to languish in your exile any longer.
In a fluke state of Hormonal Happiness I have decided that it is time to once again welcome you with open arms to Jet Blast.
You might of course not wish to frequent our humble establishment and rather revel in your martyrdom, but hey ..... give the Mods of the serious fora a break.
The preposterous & crackbrained belong in the cellar, not here.
Back to the thread, apologies to all for this irrelevant but conciliatory interlude.
In a fluke state of Hormonal Happiness I have decided that it is time to once again welcome you with open arms to Jet Blast.
You might of course not wish to frequent our humble establishment and rather revel in your martyrdom, but hey ..... give the Mods of the serious fora a break.
The preposterous & crackbrained belong in the cellar, not here.
Back to the thread, apologies to all for this irrelevant but conciliatory interlude.
