Finally some truth on the subject by the press

[VforVENDETTA]

Originally Posted by magenta magnet

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

More than a bit slow. Have you not read everything so far? Obviously you must not be a cathay pilot if you're understanding of how things have been is so far off the mark. At least read what cathay pilots are telling you how it is.

Why would SAA pay housing or education allowance in South Africa? As it's been said before, that is only a thing when you're an expat. You're not an expat in your own country. Lufthansa, KLM, United, Delta don't pay these allowances either when you're based in country. They didn't have to attract you to come live there in the first place.

Cathay didn't pay 3 years salary to those sitting at home. They paid half of salary and continue to do so. Also half of salary for those who worked high time especially on the 747 (cargo fleet) which was flying unlike the other fleets. Half salary to work your A$$ off to some and the same half salary to those sitting at home not working. Working my a$$ off and getting the same pay as someone sitting at home doing nothing for 3 years of covid madness. How fortunate for me. Twisted.

You say "they have a new contract now..." Again, you're being slow on the take. It's not a contract. It's called a handbook, amendable by cathay at any time and not enforceable as is written right into the document for sake of clarity. Write this down somewhere : IT'S NOT A CONTRACT. IT'S A HANDBOOK. it might help you get it.

"industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want." You're very funny. If you have not noticed, they're canceling 12 flights a day for a couple of months and will be for the foreseeable future due to LACK OF PILOTS. What gluttony of pilots then? Why can't they pick and choose pilots like before? Oh wait, it must be they pay half of what they paid before and... NO CONTRACT. How much money do you think cathay is leaving on the table due to this? Nevermind, don't answer that.

Sure, let them never bring back the compensation package of the past. The ship will continue sinking. Maybe they'll resign themselves to downsize it to a boat, permanently.

When the market share they can't operate again is taken up by other competitors, then they'll have a real fight on their hands. This will come eventually. Now that will be very romantic indeed. Popcorn...

And finally, Do yourself a favor and Google the meaning of "expat". You seem to be slow on this too.

[KABOY]

Originally Posted by Meursault

Kaboy, Sleepy Joe, Piet Loot, Vebdetta, any other wiseguy

Where outside of the US ist it better? Name 5 airlines and we discuss.

Keep in mind that it must be accessible or make sense for:

typical new joiner, 22 year old non-pilot with a SAR or Chinese passport

FO, typically SA, Commonwealth or Euro Passport

CN with passport as above

Looking forward to your constructive suggestions ( or apologies).

Start with an employment contract first, then we can compare.

What you have is ZERO with CX, other than a piece of payer saying how much they will give you today.

A foreign country and no working contract, ask people how that compares in the real world. Even domestic helpers have better protections than you, says a lot really.

[Meursault]

Originally Posted by KABOY

Start with an employment contract first, then we can compare.

What you have is ZERO with CX, other than a piece of payer saying how much they will give you today.

A foreign country and no working contract, ask people how that compares in the real world. Even domestic helpers have better protections than you, says a lot really.

I knew you had nothing, but thanks for confirming it.

[KABOY]

Originally Posted by Meursault

I knew you had nothing, but thanks for confirming it.

…and that is why you continue to work for them.

[Progress Wanchai]

This talk about expat conditions vs local conditions or airline X vs airline Y is irrelevant.

The market decides based against what a company is trying to achieve. CX has a stated aim of expanding at the eye watering rate of 43% over the next 12 months. Comfortably the most rapid expansion of any airline. Will they achieve that by simply offering a market competitive contract whereby as many pilots are attracted to cx as cx pilots are attracted to other airlines? Quite obviously not. The revolving door will simply continue to rotate with the majority of new crew replacing the old crew walking out the door.

Market competitive is fine if you’re simply trying to match the market. But if you’re trying to beat the market then a more sophisticated approach is required.

[cxflog]

Originally Posted by Meursault

I knew you had nothing, but thanks for confirming it.

And how much block did you work for the measly 3 million you made? There’s FO’s at my company making more than that and only working 12 days a month. But sure, continue being a brainless mouthpiece for CX. And next time post it up on the forums instead of sending me a PM aye.

[400 Jockey]

Originally Posted by Meursault

Piet Loot and Gnadenburg, if I left today I would have to work for another employer and end up with (maybe) half what I earn today, most probably rather a third really. I also would have less days off, most likely work a LCC roster, and very likely I would still not live where I want most. My children would have to leave a school they love, lose their friends, lose the helper they grew up with and are very close to. My wife would either lose her income or work for considerable less.
Does my decision not to leave, for the above reasons, make me lose my dignity or make me stupid or "defeatist" in your eyes? And how do you justify accepting an inferior LCC package that undermines local legacy carriers as more dignified alternative? Or would you maybe suggest moving to a muslim monarchy and offer my services there is a more ethical way of living?

So you are saying quite clearly that CoS18 is a good package for you as if you went anywhere else you would be earning half of what you are at CX?

[Meursault]

Originally Posted by cxflog

And how much block did you work for the measly 3 million you made? There’s FO’s at my company making more than that and only working 12 days a month. But sure, continue being a brainless mouthpiece for CX. And next time post it up on the forums instead of sending me a PM aye.

So you have nothing either. Thanks for making it clear. But please. put the numbers on the table bigmouth. Which airline?

[Meursault]

Originally Posted by 400 Jockey

So you are saying quite clearly that CoS18 is a good package for you as if you went anywhere else you would be earning half of what you are at CX?

You are welcome to prove me wrong as well. Put it on the table.Then we discuss.

[cxflog]

Originally Posted by Meursault

So you have nothing either. Thanks for making it clear. And no, there is no FO who comes even close, please don't insult me by not distinguishing between net and gross, please don't do that to me, please. But not even in the US it's true anyway, not even gross, which as you very well know is off limits for about anyone at CX anyway. But, please, prove me wrong. Put the numbers on the table bigmouth.
Which airline?

B6 champ. 7 year FO on a 320. USD338k flight pay, 51k 401k. 735 block hours. I’ll get some numbers for the 12 year FO’s who max out the pay scale just so you can feel a little more inferior. Now how much block did you work for the 3 mil?

Just another jealous loud mouth who can’t see the forest from the trees. Time to jog on I think.

[KABOY]

Asking people to relocate to a new country with a document, not a contract is a huge risk. The employment handbook has NO legal value in any environment and expecting an offer to remain the same when they clearly state it can be removed or amended is a joke.

Anytime someone invests in something of high significance such as a house carries a contract, for legal protection. I look forward to the sound legal advice you can provide to ppruners showing the protections you have in your employment with CX.

After all, they are expecting to employ from overseas and the handbook really is a compelling document to pack up and relocate for. A promise not to tamper with a document really says it all, if it was a contract they would have no choice but to honor it.

[VforVENDETTA]

We had a "contract". Not only they took every chance not to honor it throughout the years, one day they canceled the entire thing.

Because in Hong Kong that is a choice for the employers. Cathay proved it via setting a clear precedence. So even if they call it a contract again, it won't be worth the toilet paper it'll be written on. This is the law in Hong Kong.

[main_dog]

Asking people to relocate to a new country with a document, not a contract is a huge risk. The employment handbook has NO legal value in any environment and expecting an offer to remain the same when they clearly state it can be removed or amended is a joke.

Anytime someone invests in something of high significance such as a house carries a contract, for legal protection. I look forward to the sound legal advice you can provide to ppruners showing the protections you have in your employment with CX.

After all, they are expecting to employ from overseas and the handbook really is a compelling document to pack up and relocate for. A promise not to tamper with a document really says it all, if it was a contract they would have no choice but to honor it.

For me that pretty much sums it up, KAboy.

Regardless of whether you consider the current “package” excellent, good enough, insufficient or whatever, our terms and conditions are now simply a collection of policies, not a contract. They have been and will continue to be amended “from time to time”: they will improve them (slightly) right now as they struggle to crew flights, but we all know full well what will happen during the next downturn (and there is always a downturn coming).

It took a once-in-a-lifetime black swan event for them to rip up our contracts, but now they have us right where they want us, on a policy document unilaterally amendable on any convenient Friday afternoon. Buyer beware.

[magenta magnet]

It's been asked many times before on this forum and no one has given a clear answer, it's anonymous for a reason so don't hold back.

Write out your salary/package and then your monthly expenses in HK.

Because there has been a lot of issues from people wanting to send their 3 kids to Harrow and their stay at home wife to the spa three times a week, whilst paying off their ex-wife, tongue in cheek obviously.

[SIDS N STARS]

How do these guys compare?

1) British Airways
2) Air France
3) KLM
4) EK
5) Air Canada

[Meursault]

Magenta, I think this is pointless. So many individual differences. Take a Cn4 on 100 hrs in his own flat with a double income compared to a local SO living in Tuen Mun with his parents.

The decisive question is in my opinion rather: what are the alternatives for each individual?

I asked about specific alternatives, no reply.

Just talk about handbooks etc. From the same guys who hyperventilate about voluntary and unpredictable profit share at EK. And what handbook or contract protected the thousands of laid off pilots a couple of years ago?

Yes, our "contract" is worthless. But suicide because of fear of death doesn't make sense either. The salary cut and LCC roster are real, cuts at CX might or might not happen.

Originally Posted by Meursault

Kaboy, Sleepy Joe, Piet Loot, Vebdetta, any other wiseguy

Where outside of the US ist it better? Name 5 airlines and we discuss.

Keep in mind that it must be accessible or make sense for:

typical new joiner, 22 year old non-pilot with a SAR or Chinese passport

FO, typically SA, Commonwealth or Euro Passport

CN with passport as above

Looking forward to your constructive suggestions ( or apologies).

[cadetjockey]

What protections did our old contact provide anyway? LIFO? They showed that didn’t really mean anything. BPP? How’s that going… AOA’s gone quiet. D&G? It all got ripped up overnight when they pulled the rug away anyway

[raven11]

A simple litmus test for any experienced pilot considering a move to Hong Kong to join Cathay Pacific:

How many thousands of pilots have left the toxicity of Cathay Pacific, to join a real airline, and regretted doing so?
Are there any pilots currently flying for a real airline moving their families to Hong Kong to join Cathy Pacific?

Nuff said….

[122.85]

Left in 2018 to go to my national carrier direct to long haul fleet, went part time within first two years and never looked back. Best decision I ever made, culture so much more relaxed and the ability to swap trips is a huge bonus. I see a number of CX have just joined us DEFO on to some of our long haul fleets and expect a few more in the near future.

[Zi Peng]

At the end of the day is all about options and personal circumstances.
All the join this and that is utter rubbish, you are not getting a job at KLM ( and so on) if you don’t speak Dutch !
Do your research, if you have a family starting a career as an expat at CX is hard to say the least.
Definitely not a lifetime career choice, if you join use it to further your career elsewhere at some point or be ready to.
Everybody I know, in all ranks, is re assessing periodically their future, pretty much everybody has 3 to 5 years plan.