Finally some truth on the subject by the press

[magenta magnet]

Pilots jumping up and down in HK about not getting free schooling, whilst I'm sitting here flying for a main carrier who most certainly does not pay for any schooling.
The problem with getting a great deal long ago is that now everyone wants it and that is their norm, when unfortunately that is not reality.
And then to moan about getting paid for 3 years on covid whilst the majority of us were either let go or furloughed. Sure we're back and am only just starting to get our old pre covid salaries and some more, but those lost years of earnings would take 20 years to recoup even if our current airline paid 30% more per month.

How much more are you paying per month now compared to what you were paying in 2019?

What other carriers in Europe or America offer their staff free schooling for their children?

[Meursault]

Isn't it obvious? Schools are free in Europe and the US. Local state schools are not an option in Hong Kong.

Agree on the Covid pay, although be aware pay was reduced significantly for most ( up to zero for KA).

[VforVENDETTA]

Originally Posted by magenta magnet

Pilots jumping up and down in HK about not getting free schooling, whilst I'm sitting here flying for a main carrier who most certainly does not pay for any schooling.
The problem with getting a great deal long ago is that now everyone wants it and that is their norm, when unfortunately that is not reality.
And then to moan about getting paid for 3 years on covid whilst the majority of us were either let go or furloughed. Sure we're back and am only just starting to get our old pre covid salaries and some more, but those lost years of earnings would take 20 years to recoup even if our current airline paid 30% more per month.

How much more are you paying per month now compared to what you were paying in 2019?

What other carriers in Europe or America offer their staff free schooling for their children?

You're out of touch with the subject.

Carriers in Europe and America don't pay children's education allowance because there you're not an expat. Its your home country. Your children go to the local school anyway. Living abroad especially a place like hong kong, a European or American can't simply send their kids to a local school. They don't want to. International schools are private and expensive. Considering the cost if not offset by the employer, they just wouldn't take the job and the employer would be turned down. This is why this allowance has been historically paid in hk.

When you say moan about getting paid for 3 years of covid, make sure you say getting half paid. There's a big difference. One includes being declared bankrupt. A common thing among those who are still there. To this day its still the same. Not recovering to pre-covid, like in your situation by your own admission.

A great deal as you put it a long ago was what was necessary to get quality pilots to take the job in hk. Not because cathay was such a nice pilot loving outfit.

The reality is as cathay is learning the very hard way, what was necessary back then didn't suddenly change. They were delusional and now they are canceling 12 flights a day with no end in sight. This is the reality.

[cygnet78]

Why dont go back to America, Europe and Australia ?

[gipilot]

I think this whole Cx short of experienced crew ordeal is a little blown out of proportion. Sure, I understand that there is somewhat of a shortage but I think it has more to do with lack of training slots and/or trainers than shortage of pilots.

Last year a mate of mine was offered a chance to return under this new COS but he would have to start at the bottom of the list(he was fired during covid after serving 13 years) and he would not be eligible for command for at least 3 years. So they were so obsessed with humiliating him on his return to Cathay obviously he declined the contract. Last week he was in contact with talent acquisition and they told him that Cx is not planning on recruiting any ex Cx pilots, their focus is solely on new DEFO’s and SO’s.

So I think management is not too worried about how things are at the moment, I think they’re more focused on keeping people and avoiding congesting the training slots.

[Progress Wanchai]

Originally Posted by cygnet78

Why dont go back to America, Europe and Australia ?

They are. That’s the very problem.

The CX HR team is bringing in new recruits at record rates and the C&T team is at breaking point training them, but 6 out of every 10 of these recruits are simply to replace someone who is walking out the door. So recruitment is at a record high but expansion is close to a record low.

Management achieved their stated 2023 goals by picking the low hanging fruit. Reactivated grounded crew, rehired ex CX/KA crew and pushed many pilots to 100+ hours a month until inevitably they hit annual limits. In 2024 there’s no more grounded crew, few crew returning and anyone on annual limits now only able to do 75 hours a month.

It’s always been the mystery. How will cx expand at triple the rate they currently are in order to meet their 2024 goals? The easiest way would be to significantly reduce the attrition such that 10 out of 10 recruits are used for expansion. But are they prepared to pay that cost? Or does their ideology on what constitutes a competitive pilot package trump the promises they’ve made to the stock market, the government and the people of Hong Kong?

[VforVENDETTA]

Originally Posted by cygnet78

Why dont go back to America, Europe and Australia ?

Why don't pay attention? That's exactly what so many are doing. That's why cathay is canceling 12 flights every day.

[Piet Lood]

Originally Posted by magenta magnet

Pilots jumping up and down in HK about not getting free schooling, whilst I'm sitting here flying for a main carrier who most certainly does not pay for any schooling.
The problem with getting a great deal long ago is that now everyone wants it and that is their norm, when unfortunately that is not reality.
And then to moan about getting paid for 3 years on covid whilst the majority of us were either let go or furloughed. Sure we're back and am only just starting to get our old pre covid salaries and some more, but those lost years of earnings would take 20 years to recoup even if our current airline paid 30% more per month.

How much more are you paying per month now compared to what you were paying in 2019?

What other carriers in Europe or America offer their staff free schooling for their children?

And THAT defeatist attitude is the exact reason the abundantly rich are getting overabundantly rich and the middle class is disappearing.

If the Swires wanted they could re-install CoS 08 yesterday.
Hell, they could re-install CoS 96/A scale yesterday.
But why do that if you have thousands of you willing to fly for peanuts.

Good on the guys who looked at the offer, laughed and threw it back in their faces and hence remained the little bit of dignity that is still left in this sick industry.

[Gnadenburg]

Yeah hilarious the attitude and stupidity of some pilots.

The benefits for expats in many quarters hasn’t dried up in Hong Kong. I’m in HKG now hosting high end events at a number of the Clubs. Some of the gossip coming direct and second hand from the financial community and leaders of industry, reflects an almost banality and indifference in attitude of the leadership that created the CX pilot shortage. And it’s only the shortage apparent now to the public, not the actual loss of professional talent and experience.

Unbelievably one of prominent protagonists of the current COS who was retired, stating they be lucky to reach 75% of pre-COVID capacity this year, 80% sometime in 2025 and there’s a chance full recovery won’t happen! I’m not sure if KA included in pre-COVID Group capacity and if it isn’t how damning!

[Meursault]

Piet Loot and Gnadenburg, if I left today I would have to work for another employer and end up with (maybe) half what I earn today, most probably rather a third really. I also would have less days off, most likely work a LCC roster, and very likely I would still not live where I want most. My children would have to leave a school they love, lose their friends, lose the helper they grew up with and are very close to. My wife would either lose her income or work for considerable less.
Does my decision not to leave, for the above reasons, make me lose my dignity or make me stupid or "defeatist" in your eyes? And how do you justify accepting an inferior LCC package that undermines local legacy carriers as more dignified alternative? Or would you maybe suggest moving to a muslim monarchy and offer my services there is a more ethical way of living?

[cygnet78]

Latest from the "task force team" setup by CX and HK govt:-
Take as many applicants available in the market (even those failed previously will reapply)
Outsource training to clear all new pilots ASAP
Congrats to all new potential pilots. The doors are OPEN !!!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Don’t be so self-conscious. I was taking aim at the contributor attacking the reduced perks you now have available. I’m entertaining the expat community here and plenty in HKG still get lucrative perks including your bosses. Had a coffee in Central and one expat’s 4000 HKD expanse account allowance for such, sure buys nice Bordeaux!

Anyways. Judging by your stated circumstances aren’t you fortunate you not sacked like many others? Invest well!

[cadetjockey]

Originally Posted by Gnadenburg

Don’t be so self-conscious. I was taking aim at the contributor attacking the reduced perks you now have available. I’m entertaining the expat community here and plenty in HKG still get lucrative perks including your bosses. Had a coffee in Central and one expat’s 4000 HKD expanse account allowance for such, sure buys nice Bordeaux!

Anyways. Judging by your stated circumstances aren’t you fortunate you not sacked like many others? Invest well!

Sounds like the golden days are back, hope you didn’t use up his whole 4k budget…

[magenta magnet]

Originally Posted by Piet Lood

And THAT defeatist attitude is the exact reason the abundantly rich are getting overabundantly rich and the middle class is disappearing.

If the Swires wanted they could re-install CoS 08 yesterday.
Hell, they could re-install CoS 96/A scale yesterday.
But why do that if you have thousands of you willing to fly for peanuts.

Good on the guys who looked at the offer, laughed and threw it back in their faces and hence remained the little bit of dignity that is still left in this sick industry.

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

[cygnet78]

Originally Posted by magenta magnet

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

WELL SAID !!!!!!!

[Piet Lood]

Originally Posted by magenta magnet

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

Your guess is wrong.
Your assumptions are wrong.
And some of your statements are wrong.
But you do you and continue the acceptance of the continuation of the deterioration of your conditions of service like so many others and reap what you sow.

Do you think the Swires, Musk, Branson, Buffet, Zuckerburg, Gates etc. cut THEIR lavish lifestyles?
Don’t complain that in a few decades the middle class will have disappeared.
YOU have done NOTHING to stop it.

I was busier than ever during covid and made more than I ever did in HKG.
There was quite a bit of luck involved, but cx is not the only airline on the planet that continued to pay a salary. Even though they cut those salaries by 60%.
AND continues to do so now that covid is a thing of the past.

“They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear” because there are THOUSANDS like you who utter and accept that statement.
I’m not one of them and am reaping what I sowed too.

[KABOY]

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

How many airlines place a document on the table that states:

'The parties do not intend any of these Conditions of Service to be enforceable under the Contract ordinance.'

And even better, 'The company may amend the handbook as well as any other rule, policy or direction issued by the company at any time at its sole discretion.'

So yes, some where paid whilst others were furloughed, but what sort of employment is this? It's like being paid a charitable donation, not compelled or enforced to do so.

How can anyone think that this company is ethical in any way with clauses like that! Welcome to 18th century labour laws, don't die on company property, the family will be charged for the cleanup.

[Sleepy Joe]

What I’m amazed by from the people who stayed is that they can make COS 18 work and that is the end of the cuts. Foolish thinking…..we can maybe talk when COS 27 or COS 30 is forced upon you with 2 weeks notice to make your mind up. You might earn less elsewhere but boy aren’t you happier away from that toxic place.

[KABOY]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Joe

What I’m amazed by from the people who stayed is that they can make COS 18 work and that is the end of the cuts. Foolish thinking…..we can maybe talk when COS 27 or COS 30 is forced upon you with 2 weeks notice to make your mind up. You might earn less elsewhere but boy aren’t you happier away from that toxic place.

With terms like this, they don’t need another COS. They have all the flexibility they need.

[Meursault]

Kaboy, Sleepy Joe, Piet Loot, Vebdetta, any other wiseguy

Where outside of the US ist it better? Name 5 airlines and we discuss.

Keep in mind that it must be accessible or make sense for:

typical new joiner, 22 year old non-pilot with a SAR or Chinese passport

FO, typically SA, Commonwealth or Euro Passport

CN with passport as above

Looking forward to your constructive suggestions ( or apologies).