Finally some truth on the subject by the press
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Here we go with the "let's not forget it was really bad...".
Yes it was. It was very bleak. HK had lost its mind, they went crazy and they are still paying the price for the damage they did to themselves.
But it the contracts cathay canceled overnight, without any discussions with pilots, in fact refusing the many pleas from the only representative body for the pilots, included provisions for such unforseen events. It was called "first in, last out". A furlough provision. It was there for decades. For exactly such circumstances. Cathay did not follow the contract when the time came.
instead they canceled the contract and cut everyone's pay and benefits by 50% , permanently.
No discussions about consessions temporarily until things improve. No. Your pay and benefits are cut in half. Sign or be fired in 2 weeks.
Don't give me the BS about how But everyone's jobs were saved...". No. We all ended up with half of our jobs left, not our jobs, 1/2 our jobs each individually. Nobody kept their job at cathay. They kept half of it.
Furlough is what airlines do at times like this. And when they need you back, they recall you. If you're still interested, you're put back to work at the same pay and position you were before. We had a first in last out in our contracts. Cathay decided to show the contracts we were working under for decades were not worth the toilet paper they were signed on.
What they did was far more egregious than furlough. A furlough would have been understood and we would have come back when possible. There wouldn't be such a mass exodus of experience to continue permanently.
i would have come back from a furlough, gladly and without any hard feelings towards cathay for laying me off. This is afterall how its always been done at airlines and if I didn't know at least this much about the industry I work in from my first day, I'd truly be a moron.
Instead l left without a single day of notice. Because a job with Cathay was lowered to garbage level, due solely to what cathay itself had done.
In comparison, in the last 2 decades cathay had many pilots who were on furlough while working for cathay. Some for close to 10 years. But when their previous airline called them back, they left cathay and went back.
cathay pilots laugh out loud and cuss at the suggestion of going back to cathay. Very few would do it.
So yes things were bad. But what cathay did was not the proper response. It was taking advantage and not letting a crisis go unused. They miscalculated very badly due to their own Incompetence and are paying the price for it badly..it's very well deserved and they should pay much greater consequences.
Yes it was. It was very bleak. HK had lost its mind, they went crazy and they are still paying the price for the damage they did to themselves.
But it the contracts cathay canceled overnight, without any discussions with pilots, in fact refusing the many pleas from the only representative body for the pilots, included provisions for such unforseen events. It was called "first in, last out". A furlough provision. It was there for decades. For exactly such circumstances. Cathay did not follow the contract when the time came.
instead they canceled the contract and cut everyone's pay and benefits by 50% , permanently.
No discussions about consessions temporarily until things improve. No. Your pay and benefits are cut in half. Sign or be fired in 2 weeks.
Don't give me the BS about how But everyone's jobs were saved...". No. We all ended up with half of our jobs left, not our jobs, 1/2 our jobs each individually. Nobody kept their job at cathay. They kept half of it.
Furlough is what airlines do at times like this. And when they need you back, they recall you. If you're still interested, you're put back to work at the same pay and position you were before. We had a first in last out in our contracts. Cathay decided to show the contracts we were working under for decades were not worth the toilet paper they were signed on.
What they did was far more egregious than furlough. A furlough would have been understood and we would have come back when possible. There wouldn't be such a mass exodus of experience to continue permanently.
i would have come back from a furlough, gladly and without any hard feelings towards cathay for laying me off. This is afterall how its always been done at airlines and if I didn't know at least this much about the industry I work in from my first day, I'd truly be a moron.
Instead l left without a single day of notice. Because a job with Cathay was lowered to garbage level, due solely to what cathay itself had done.
In comparison, in the last 2 decades cathay had many pilots who were on furlough while working for cathay. Some for close to 10 years. But when their previous airline called them back, they left cathay and went back.
cathay pilots laugh out loud and cuss at the suggestion of going back to cathay. Very few would do it.
So yes things were bad. But what cathay did was not the proper response. It was taking advantage and not letting a crisis go unused. They miscalculated very badly due to their own Incompetence and are paying the price for it badly..it's very well deserved and they should pay much greater consequences.
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Well said VforV.
Management flaws can have a big impact on a company. In the case of Cathay, their unethical labour relations and managerial misconduct have led to the massive decline of this once great company. A cautionary tale of a management that will look after the needs of themselves without considering the needs of the other people around them. A few minutes spent on this forum would be all the time needed to reveal unflattering terms as malicious, abusive, vicious, and toxic.
It had become clear to anyone who bothered to look that Cathay hated their pilots. To them, it seemed that the airline would run so smoothly if not for those pesky ingrates. But even in Hong Kong where labour laws protecting employees from unscrupulous management were scant they still felt shackled. Covid was a gift from above. It gave them the opportunity to attack pilots employment contracts without fear of push back from either the government or the pilot association.
So without any concern for future Company performance post Covid, the mask of a caring employer was cast aside and they unleashed their rath.Thus sealing their reputation as an unscrupulous employer amongst professional pilots world wide.
So today, as better managed companies around the world are thriving in the post Covid recovery, Cathay find themselves desperately in need of experienced pilots to fly their parked airplanes. But given the reputation they’ve rightfully earned, no first world pilot of repute will even consider them as an employer. A inept management are reaping what they’ve sowed and a once mighty legacy airline has been brought to its knees.
Only a complete and total management shake up from the top down might possibly rescue the business. The alternative would be to wither on the vine.
Management flaws can have a big impact on a company. In the case of Cathay, their unethical labour relations and managerial misconduct have led to the massive decline of this once great company. A cautionary tale of a management that will look after the needs of themselves without considering the needs of the other people around them. A few minutes spent on this forum would be all the time needed to reveal unflattering terms as malicious, abusive, vicious, and toxic.
It had become clear to anyone who bothered to look that Cathay hated their pilots. To them, it seemed that the airline would run so smoothly if not for those pesky ingrates. But even in Hong Kong where labour laws protecting employees from unscrupulous management were scant they still felt shackled. Covid was a gift from above. It gave them the opportunity to attack pilots employment contracts without fear of push back from either the government or the pilot association.
So without any concern for future Company performance post Covid, the mask of a caring employer was cast aside and they unleashed their rath.Thus sealing their reputation as an unscrupulous employer amongst professional pilots world wide.
So today, as better managed companies around the world are thriving in the post Covid recovery, Cathay find themselves desperately in need of experienced pilots to fly their parked airplanes. But given the reputation they’ve rightfully earned, no first world pilot of repute will even consider them as an employer. A inept management are reaping what they’ve sowed and a once mighty legacy airline has been brought to its knees.
Only a complete and total management shake up from the top down might possibly rescue the business. The alternative would be to wither on the vine.
"A few minutes spent on this forum would be all the time needed to reveal unflattering terms as malicious, abusive, vicious, and toxic."
Try the Qantas thread for REAL venom
Try the Qantas thread for REAL venom
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Even the shareholders can’t stand the board of directors. Lucky for CX the voting power lies with Swire, so they can install whichever puppet they want.
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By: Danny Lee | Jan 24 2024 at 08:45 AM |
Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. raised the allowance it gives to pilots to cover their kids’ school fees by 50% and locked in pay benchmarks for two years as it tackles a chronic shortage of aircrew that’s led to mass flight cancellations.
Hong Kong’s biggest airline will increase its school-fee cap 50% to HK$150,000 ($19,180) for each eligible child between 11 and 18 years’ old, according to a memo seen by Bloomberg News. Other incentives include a pledge to keep a metric of hours flown that’s tied to take-home pay the same through the end of 2025, essentially averting pay cuts.
Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. raised the allowance it gives to pilots to cover their kids’ school fees by 50% and locked in pay benchmarks for two years as it tackles a chronic shortage of aircrew that’s led to mass flight cancellations.
Hong Kong’s biggest airline will increase its school-fee cap 50% to HK$150,000 ($19,180) for each eligible child between 11 and 18 years’ old, according to a memo seen by Bloomberg News. Other incentives include a pledge to keep a metric of hours flown that’s tied to take-home pay the same through the end of 2025, essentially averting pay cuts.
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What idiots are these? So you keep the pay what it is now, and you will keep the same retention problem. Do you think your problem is solved at this pay rate?
They promise not to cut pay any further for the next 2 years! Really? This is comedic on o many levels.
As in there has been until now a possibility of even lower pay than whe rare that has gotten cathay into such a **** deadend? Now everyone can rest easy cathay wont go even further?! Oh what a relief!!! And who in the right mind would accept cathay's word on anything ever again? They’ve proven beyond belief their word is ****.
The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18. And it doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't have kids in school in hk. It only affects some people.
There's really nothing cathay management can do to solve this pilot shortage problem. They lost all credibility when they canceled contracts overnight. The entire pilot body has been and always will be working under no contract . This is made clear in the first paragraph of cos18.
Even if cathay were to again claim to have a binding contract, their word is sh!t for eternity so it wouldn't change anything. It could temporarily fix the problem if cathay paid at a premium above and beyond what they paid before to fool people to take the risk of working for them while other less paying but stable employment is available to them. But even that wouldn't solve the issue in longer term.
Maybe if hk government stepped in and placed a legally binding contract in place taking it out of cathay's hands to be able to flush it down the toilet like before. But does hk government and ots legal system have any credibility for this?
Remember there is nothing in hk law that prevents a company to summarily cancel your employment contact at a moment's notice. Like cathay did to us. Will they pass legislation to prevent these situations from being so easy to cause by consequential employers in hk such as cathay? Hong kong's recovery is now fukked because of the situation cathay has caused for itself because they had too much rope to hang themselves and they did it. Thats a serious consequence. If hk government didn't want to be in this situation, they shouldn't have allowed it to happen. They're just as implicit and indeed deserving of it all.
Will they pass legislation to prevent this to happen again? I doubt they're smart enough?
Popcorn...
They promise not to cut pay any further for the next 2 years! Really? This is comedic on o many levels.
As in there has been until now a possibility of even lower pay than whe rare that has gotten cathay into such a **** deadend? Now everyone can rest easy cathay wont go even further?! Oh what a relief!!! And who in the right mind would accept cathay's word on anything ever again? They’ve proven beyond belief their word is ****.
The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18. And it doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't have kids in school in hk. It only affects some people.
There's really nothing cathay management can do to solve this pilot shortage problem. They lost all credibility when they canceled contracts overnight. The entire pilot body has been and always will be working under no contract . This is made clear in the first paragraph of cos18.
Even if cathay were to again claim to have a binding contract, their word is sh!t for eternity so it wouldn't change anything. It could temporarily fix the problem if cathay paid at a premium above and beyond what they paid before to fool people to take the risk of working for them while other less paying but stable employment is available to them. But even that wouldn't solve the issue in longer term.
Maybe if hk government stepped in and placed a legally binding contract in place taking it out of cathay's hands to be able to flush it down the toilet like before. But does hk government and ots legal system have any credibility for this?
Remember there is nothing in hk law that prevents a company to summarily cancel your employment contact at a moment's notice. Like cathay did to us. Will they pass legislation to prevent these situations from being so easy to cause by consequential employers in hk such as cathay? Hong kong's recovery is now fukked because of the situation cathay has caused for itself because they had too much rope to hang themselves and they did it. Thats a serious consequence. If hk government didn't want to be in this situation, they shouldn't have allowed it to happen. They're just as implicit and indeed deserving of it all.
Will they pass legislation to prevent this to happen again? I doubt they're smart enough?
Popcorn...
Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 26th Jan 2024 at 06:34.
"The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18"...... Not exactly VfV in fact in many cases it is more now than previously paid
Many pilots families have for years attended AIS (Australian international School -HK) where I have paid school fees for the past 20 years - the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.
Many pilots families have for years attended AIS (Australian international School -HK) where I have paid school fees for the past 20 years - the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.
. The 2024 tuition fees for primary and secondary students at AIS are in the range $164,700 to $239,600 p.a., not including the capital levy. That's not "well under the rate being paid even for the senior school" by any stretch of the imagination.AIS - 2024 Tuition Fees
"The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18"...... Not exactly VfV in fact in many cases it is more now than previously paid
Many pilots families have for years attended AIS (Australian international School -HK) where I have paid school fees for the past 20 years - the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.
Many pilots families have for years attended AIS (Australian international School -HK) where I have paid school fees for the past 20 years - the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.
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The skippers at my new airline ask where I’ve come from and as soon as they hear it’s CX they almost look on me in pity! Every single one of them comments about how far the airline has fallen and what a shame it all is.
I am very grateful for the time I spent at CX, their training is top notch and they got me into a position where my family and I are now extremely happy and looked after by a national carrier. Thank you CX!
All the flag carriers around the world can’t believe their luck that there are so many experienced CX drivers “coming home”
I would always recommend CX now as a great place to get trained up and move on.
I am very grateful for the time I spent at CX, their training is top notch and they got me into a position where my family and I are now extremely happy and looked after by a national carrier. Thank you CX!
All the flag carriers around the world can’t believe their luck that there are so many experienced CX drivers “coming home”
I would always recommend CX now as a great place to get trained up and move on.
Bull. The 2024 tuition fees for primary and secondary students at AIS are in the range $164,700 to $239,600 p.a., not including the capital levy. That's not "well under the rate being paid even for the senior school" by any stretch of the imagination.
AIS - 2024 Tuition Fees
. The 2024 tuition fees for primary and secondary students at AIS are in the range $164,700 to $239,600 p.a., not including the capital levy. That's not "well under the rate being paid even for the senior school" by any stretch of the imagination.AIS - 2024 Tuition Fees
From AIS web site
2023–2024 AIS Tuition Fee Annual Fee 2024
Early Childhood 2 – Grade 1 Junior HK$137,800
Grade 1 – Grade 4 HK$139,000 HK$34,750
Grade 5 – Grade 8 HK$149,400
The payment of the Capital Levy is offered as an alternative option to the Depreciating Debenture. The capital levy must be paid on acceptance of being offered a place. The levy amount is reviewed each year and is currently HK$21,840 per student per annum. The capital levy is payable annually at the beginning of each school year.
Not correct -I have the invoices for both son and grandson -in 20 years we have never been asked for any capital levy
From AIS web site
2023–2024 AIS Tuition Fee Annual Fee 2024
Early Childhood 2 – Grade 1 Junior HK$137,800
Grade 1 – Grade 4 HK$139,000 HK$34,750
Grade 5 – Grade 8 HK$149,400
From AIS web site
2023–2024 AIS Tuition Fee Annual Fee 2024
Early Childhood 2 – Grade 1 Junior HK$137,800
Grade 1 – Grade 4 HK$139,000 HK$34,750
Grade 5 – Grade 8 HK$149,400
As mentioned above by KAPAC, at the Australian school there is a choice of paying either a debenture (currently $120,000 per student, renewable every eight years), or an annual capital levy (currently $21,840 per student), in addition to the annual tuition fees. An annual capital levy is also payable at the American school.
In any case, you previously said "the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school". That claim is still bull
, no matter which school you meant to say. The 2023-24 tuition fee for Grades 9-12 at the American school is $164,000. That's not "well under the rate being paid". Would you care to explain why you excluded those fees in the figures you quoted?Last edited by BuzzBox; 27th Jan 2024 at 04:29.
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The new education allowance is definitely an improvement, now comparable to the pre-covid CEA (a slight improvement if your secondary school child’s annual tuition fee is around the 150k mark, though not as good as it was if in a more expensive school like HKIS or CIS).
This improvement only affects a small part of the pilot population however (with kids 11-18), and doesn’t really address the elephant in the room: the overall Cos18 package is still dramatically inferior to precovid Cos99/08. Basic pay is down 40%, PF is down 60% when flying below threshold, and housing assistance is gone. In addition it is all mere policy, amendable at a whim.
The assurances that thresholds will not be adjusted upwards (and even that only until end next year) is actually just a promise of no further pay cuts in the near future. This is clearly not enough if they want to attract experienced crew, not to mention retain them.
This improvement only affects a small part of the pilot population however (with kids 11-18), and doesn’t really address the elephant in the room: the overall Cos18 package is still dramatically inferior to precovid Cos99/08. Basic pay is down 40%, PF is down 60% when flying below threshold, and housing assistance is gone. In addition it is all mere policy, amendable at a whim.
The assurances that thresholds will not be adjusted upwards (and even that only until end next year) is actually just a promise of no further pay cuts in the near future. This is clearly not enough if they want to attract experienced crew, not to mention retain them.