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Pilot Shortage in Hong Kong

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Pilot Shortage in Hong Kong

Old 6th Jul 2022, 06:02
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
Oli77 The answer to your question = a Cathay source earlier this week.
I have been told though that 99% the same information is also freely available on the internet.

I have not checked leasing of the whole fleet as it is fluid with many older aircraft being returned to the leasers month by month with another ex dragon being returned this week and some aircraft on loan to other airlines.
If you have the urge to post more deliberately misleading information presumably with the aim of of painting a falsely negative picture of the health of the airline then I suggest that you perhaps find a more productive pursuit as you and several others posting the same sort of nonsense over the past months, with presumably the one intention of destroying the general perception of the airline, are in danger of turning this important forum into a dangerous Trumpesk comedy thread.

Demand - Boston and daily NY and LA back this month as well as flights to the sub-continent with most passenger flights now full both ways and several with waiting lists.


There's your answer, you said it --> "I have not checked..." and a "Cathay source" bla bla bla
Trying to defend someone who jumps up and down and says that CX lease 2 aircraft etc and own the rest, please.

READ
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Old 6th Jul 2022, 06:24
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Ok Oli lets read page 73: as of FY 2021 the GROUP has 58 aircraft on Operating Lease (CPA 31, HKE 27).

The 31 Cathay Pacific leased aircraft comprise 2 x A350, 15 x B777, 4 x A330, 10 A320F. 31 leased aircraft out of a fleet total of 193.

Last edited by Rico_Corp; 6th Jul 2022 at 06:24. Reason: Delete AHK
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Old 6th Jul 2022, 08:48
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Its now mid 2022 fellows....not a lot of point in quoting an outdated 2021 document to make your case.

The only reason that I became involved in this thread was the very silly post (below) from Oli777 which was a continuation of the calculated factious malevolent nonsense posted here by the usual 4 or 5 suspects aimed solely at misleading others re Cathay .

"Swire 101, lease aircraft because interest rates are low, oops... now interest rates are through the roof and repayments cost a fortune. Oh well, in 24 days time the music stops and the board members won't have seats to sit on."
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Old 6th Jul 2022, 09:58
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I don't understand the line of your argument,V.

You say people don't want to see the bad news, the ugly side, the negative, the lack of pilots if demand comes back.

Actually, your prediction is the overly optimistic one. I want a pilot shortage. Lack of manpower is the only chance for contract improvements. Plus it would mean more productivity hours.

The negative view is the opposite, no shortage.


Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 6th Jul 2022 at 13:03.
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Old 6th Jul 2022, 10:57
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
I don't understand the line of your argument,V.

You say people don't want to see the bad news, the ugly side, the negative, the lack of pilots if demand comes back.

Actually, your prediction is the overly optimistic one. I want a pilot shortage. Lack of manpower is the only chance for contract improvements. Plus it would mean a lot of productivity hours for the existing work force.

The negative view is the opposite, no shortage.
Quiet a bit of delusional material you put forward.

First of all, what contract?! Cathay pilots are not working under a "contract" since Jan. 2021. Cos 18 states in the FIRST paragraph, that the company can change anything they want, anytime they want at their sole discretion. Well that is by definition not a contract. A contract is a 2 way street, binding and not changeable by one party in it's entirety at their sole discretion. And by having proven via legal precedence in hk that an employment "contract" which is what we had, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on, especially when signed by cathay pacific, and can be canceled overnight replaced by a "company policy" document which you're told to sign in 2 weeks or you're fired, they can no longer even pretend to offer an employment contract which anyone with any reason and logic will believe. So get a dictionary and educate yourself on what the word "contract" means. You're no longer working under one, and never will again in Hong Kong, and certainly never again at cathay pacific. Only an idiot will not laugh out loud when cathay pacific utters the word "contract" now.

If you're simply referring to the increasing of your pay regarding productivity pay, it will only ever be temporarily until the next hiccup when cathay will take it back down to wherever they wish to, at their sole discretion. Leaving you to look and feel like a fool for not having taken a job elsewhere when you could even at lower pay but stable and under an enforceable "contract".

And when hoping productivity will take your pay back to previous rate, remember your housing and children's education allowance, medical coverage have also been cut over 50% (for which you now have to pay out of pocket or downgrade accordingly). All that will have to be raised too or company business flourishing once again will not trickle down to you in a meaningful way.
so no, productivity pay will not bring back what you had before, while cathay will have the profits it had before while paying you 1/3 housing and children's education allowance, which you'll either pay out of pocket or downgrade your life and your family's life accordingly.

But like I said, if you don't have any other choice and if cathay goes down it will mean a career disaster for you because you can't get a job flying anywhere else, you'll continue to wear your rose colored glasses. Because if you take them off your situation is so utterly depressing and hopeless with an employer that has zero employer credibility left for it's employees making it completely impossible to plan any future, financially or professionally for it's pilots.

These are the subjects relevant to existance of a pilot shortage in hk, or not. It makes zero jack sh!t difference if cathay is leasing or owning how many of its aircraft. Zero.

Cathay's loss of credibility is not something any management group can ever fix in the future. It's been proven an employment contract signed in hk and especially by cathay pacific isn't worth the toilet paper it's signed on and that it never was all these decades. Who in yhe right mind will risk their career and financial stability to work for cathay again, unless they're either very desperate or very naive? (I didn't want to say stupid)
Even the most well intentioned management group which might exist in some dreamy future will be laughed at when asking for trust and credibility from its employees at Cathay. What was done by this management group can never be undone. It's over. Even of cathay prospers in the future, you as a cathay employees never will. Cathay's success or not is no longer relevant to you. You won't be allowed to share that success, only the pain every time they f'kkk it up. What else do they have to do to make that clear to you?

It has been time to leave as soon as you can for some time now. This show is over. The extremely high attrition numbers and the utter fIlure to recruit pilots despite having launched a recruitment campaign many months ago is a clear sign. Leave when you can.

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Old 6th Jul 2022, 12:00
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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14 years FO, my seniority goes up 3-5 spots a week, I am assuming they are mostly CNs leaving.
Where is my command course?
Again are we really short or critically short ?
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Old 6th Jul 2022, 14:39
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Even for guys currently out of a job, there are better options to apply to at the moment than CX
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Old 6th Jul 2022, 17:00
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VforVENDETTA View Post
Quiet a bit of delusional material you put forward.

First of all, what contract?! Cathay pilots are not working under a "contract" since Jan. 2021. Cos 18 states in the FIRST paragraph, that the company can change anything they want, anytime they want at their sole discretion. Well that is by definition not a contract. A contract is a 2 way street, binding and not changeable by one party in it's entirety at their sole discretion. And by having proven via legal precedence in hk that an employment "contract" which is what we had, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on, especially when signed by cathay pacific, and can be canceled overnight replaced by a "company policy" document which you're told to sign in 2 weeks or you're fired, they can no longer even pretend to offer an employment contract which anyone with any reason and logic will believe. So get a dictionary and educate yourself on what the word "contract" means. You're no longer working under one, and never will again in Hong Kong, and certainly never again at cathay pacific. Only an idiot will not laugh out loud when cathay pacific utters the word "contract" now.

If you're simply referring to the increasing of your pay regarding productivity pay, it will only ever be temporarily until the next hiccup when cathay will take it back down to wherever they wish to, at their sole discretion. Leaving you to look and feel like a fool for not having taken a job elsewhere when you could even at lower pay but stable and under an enforceable "contract".

And when hoping productivity will take your pay back to previous rate, remember your housing and children's education allowance, medical coverage have also been cut over 50% (for which you now have to pay out of pocket or downgrade accordingly). All that will have to be raised too or company business flourishing once again will not trickle down to you in a meaningful way.
so no, productivity pay will not bring back what you had before, while cathay will have the profits it had before while paying you 1/3 housing and children's education allowance, which you'll either pay out of pocket or downgrade your life and your family's life accordingly.

But like I said, if you don't have any other choice and if cathay goes down it will mean a career disaster for you because you can't get a job flying anywhere else, you'll continue to wear your rose colored glasses. Because if you take them off your situation is so utterly depressing and hopeless with an employer that has zero employer credibility left for it's employees making it completely impossible to plan any future, financially or professionally for it's pilots.

These are the subjects relevant to existance of a pilot shortage in hk, or not. It makes zero jack sh!t difference if cathay is leasing or owning how many of its aircraft. Zero.

Cathay's loss of credibility is not something any management group can ever fix in the future. It's been proven an employment contract signed in hk and especially by cathay pacific isn't worth the toilet paper it's signed on and that it never was all these decades. Who in yhe right mind will risk their career and financial stability to work for cathay again, unless they're either very desperate or very naive? (I didn't want to say stupid)
Even the most well intentioned management group which might exist in some dreamy future will be laughed at when asking for trust and credibility from its employees at Cathay. What was done by this management group can never be undone. It's over. Even of cathay prospers in the future, you as a cathay employees never will. Cathay's success or not is no longer relevant to you. You won't be allowed to share that success, only the pain every time they f'kkk it up. What else do they have to do to make that clear to you?

It has been time to leave as soon as you can for some time now. This show is over. The extremely high attrition numbers and the utter fIlure to recruit pilots despite having launched a recruitment campaign many months ago is a clear sign. Leave when you can.

100% correct V, you summed it up perfectly. Now STW will come on here quoting how great this weeks pay rates compare to some LCC in Asia and that CX will be flush with high quality applicants.

Last edited by chards; 7th Jul 2022 at 08:32.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 02:16
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Finally, interesting and largely constructive comments here.
It is not all important to me that some do not agree with my stance that was to stop the rot and the nonsense that was being posted here.
My view is that if Cathay need to pay more and or improve conditions they will do so. They are a commercial organisation that ultimately answers to the shareholders.
Already they offer above market norm terms and conditions and had not timely decisive actions been taken the airline would have closed. Understandably these necessary actions caused great hurt and anger but were necessary for survival and over 6000 largely Hong Kong employees still having jobs.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 03:33
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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The “Wumao” are active of late !
The above market norm term used here was from the benchmarking done some 6 years back when CX renumeration was compared to a basket number of regional (note not legacy carrier) airlines. Strongly rumored that Australian regional airline Air North being one of them.(what a joke if verified true)
The timely action spoken of saved nothing and paled into insignificance as to the costs of having aircraft non/under utilized and idle/parked at Alice Springs so please stop with the smokescreens.
The 8th Floor saw an opportunity to slash and burn and it has brought a world class airline to it’s knees, to the extent that the prized Diamond Club members now shun CX for competitor airlines.

Occum’s Razor.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 06:05
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Rice power: Opinions differ but facts are facts and a fact is that the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels. Apart from the need to be competitive the Cathay packages worth well upwards of HK$4 million were clearly out of step with the then current industry levels and needed to change. It can perhaps be reasonably argued that the cuts went unnecessarily far and some believe that they were treated harshly but change was unavoidable and escalated by the pandemic and Hong Kong's handling of it.
Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life. Cathay is a business not a charity and needs to be completive to survive and If salary and benefits need to be raised to hold and attract a stable pilot workforce that is what will happen. .
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 07:41
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Another management ******. If Airlines can’t pay the same packages as before, punters can’t afford to fly, and the number of airlines and aircraft must decrease.

Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
Rice power: Opinions differ but facts are facts and a fact is that the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels. Apart from the need to be competitive the Cathay packages worth well upwards of HK$4 million were clearly out of step with the then current industry levels and needed to change. It can perhaps be reasonably argued that the cuts went unnecessarily far and some believe that they were treated harshly but change was unavoidable and escalated by the pandemic and Hong Kong's handling of it.
Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life. Cathay is a business not a charity and needs to be completive to survive and If salary and benefits need to be raised to hold and attract a stable pilot workforce that is what will happen. .
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 08:44
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Brown Nose :I'm afraid that your logic is rather beyond my understanding.
However I agree that the number of VIABLE airlines has decreased and in the short term is likely to decrease further.
This is very unlikely however to include any from the Cathay group but it is looking as though the small remaining rump Hong Kong Airlines is very probably terminal this time.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 08:45
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You wish to talk facts?
Okay, how about no-one on B scale was earning “well upwards of 4 mill”, even the rare few with BTC allowances
Renumeration for United/Delta/American and BA senior Captains are freely available on the internet for you to ponder over.
Really appreciate the BS lecture though.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 09:36
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Very old China hand. I served Cathay for over 30 years. For three decades, I had a front row seat to a never ending stream of cost efficiencies which manifested themselves in two ways: cuts to pay and benefits and cuts to operational expenses.

Pilot pay and benefits were constantly on the chopping block and cut with the regularity of an atomic clock. As lower pay packages attracted fewer and fewer real pilots recruitment standards were reduced. All the while, senior management would proclaim that no change to the legendary “Cathay Standard” was occurring. In fact, even long after experienced pilots were no longer being hired and untrained pilots with zero flight time were instead being hired off the street, senior Cathay managers continued to pretend that they were still able to attract top pilot talent. It was bizarre.

The ultimate effect was obvious to those on the flight deck. There were cuts to minimum training requirements, cuts to crew experience levels, cuts to minimum crewing levels; and once stringent flight time limitations were being manipulated. To top it all off was the rostering system that used flight time limits as performance targets, rather than “only when necessary” as intended by the law governing the limitations. It became alarming to witness the constantly diminishing standard on the flight deck. Multiple letters from the Cathay trainers, who went on the record to warn management about real safety concerns, were ignored; or the safety risks assessed as manageable. I know, because I had a hand in writing them.

In your last post you said, “Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life.”

You write with sincerity and I have no doubt that you are firm in your convictions as a business man, and let me say that I heard the same sentiment each time cuts were imposed. It was the same rationale used to fire 49 pilots in 2001. A seminal act of cruelty that would not have been tolerated in any other civilized business environment. All the casualties that you speak of were real people. People with families, obligations, and years and years of sweat equity spent honing their pilot skills. People with everything invested in Cathay and in Hong Kong. By any modern business or human standard you don’t just get to rationalize writing people off as an unnecessary business expense in a manner as if their lives didn’t matter. Certainly not since Dickens.

And this is what I’m trying to get across to you. Yes hard business decisions are sometimes necessary. But from my perspective, Cathay was never able to carry them out with any real finesse, or with a human touch. Instead changes were always heavy handed and arbitrarily imposed with an axe. With seemingly little thought or concern to the pain and misery it caused to the very people that once made Cathay the great airline it was. You may disagree, but this is what it felt like to those of us on the receiving end.

I choose to resign 18 months ago, after 30 years and nearing my retirement age of 65. Once again, with the finesse of a slap across the face, I was given three choices: Endure another in a long series of pay cuts by signing a new “contract”; be fired; or resign. I asked if I could continue for a few months until normal retirement on my current conditions but was flatly refused. So I choose Option 3 and resigned. I gave three months notice, packed up my family and left. A clerk oversaw my release and walked me to the door. Just another example of the lack of human touch, the lack of people skills, I referred to earlier.

In any case, do with my words as you please. It is with great sadness that the once legendary Cathay Pacific Airways has fallen into its current state.. I wish you luck in its rebuilding. Hopefully it will be successful with better people management skills.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 12:22
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
Finally, interesting and largely constructive comments here.
It is not all important to me that some do not agree with my stance that was to stop the rot and the nonsense that was being posted here.
My view is that if Cathay need to pay more and or improve conditions they will do so. They are a commercial organisation that ultimately answers to the shareholders.
Already they offer above market norm terms and conditions and had not timely decisive actions been taken the airline would have closed. Understandably these necessary actions caused great hurt and anger but were necessary for survival and over 6000 largely Hong Kong employees still having jobs.

Timely action? Respectable businesses and management take timely action on a temporary basis and do not cut to the bone forever in such a depraved and cynical manner.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 15:29
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Raven11. Thank you for a post that clearly explains the near depravity of the Swire management ethos. As a reminder to those who were not at CX at the time, the 49er incident resulted in the DEATHS of three people (two pilots, and the suicide of the wife of one of them). To all of those "star chamber" members at the time, don't think that your actions will not count against you in the next life. What you did to those people and their families should live in infamy. Shame on every one of you who participated. Truly one of the most detestable acts i've ever witnessed.

CX have now hit almost 30 years since their first 'Commitment Day" (when the first evidence of the company's attack against their pilots appeared). To all of the Swire and CX managers involved over that period of time: good job. ruined airline. ruined lives.

You couldn't make this up if you were a fiction writer.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 17:00
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Raven11. Spot on. Well-balanced and about as close to “the truth” as any individual can get to, at least the truth as I perceive it.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 17:25
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
Rice power: Opinions differ but facts are facts and a fact is that the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels. Apart from the need to be competitive the Cathay packages worth well upwards of HK$4 million were clearly out of step with the then current industry levels and needed to change. It can perhaps be reasonably argued that the cuts went unnecessarily far and some believe that they were treated harshly but change was unavoidable and escalated by the pandemic and Hong Kong's handling of it.
Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life. Cathay is a business not a charity and needs to be completive to survive and If salary and benefits need to be raised to hold and attract a stable pilot workforce that is what will happen. .
Where did you drag this figure of HK$4 million from? On a B scale?

You say "the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels." Wrong! Why are many airlines now paying record salaries and bonuses?

IF Cathay did this to "save the airline" and it was nothing to do with them despising the pilot workforce, why did they not put in CoS 18 that salaries would return once the airline returned to healthy profits? Why make it permanent? I'm certain most pilots would have gone along with a huge temporary pay cut to save the airline if asked and the result would have probably seen far less pilots resigning.
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Old 7th Jul 2022, 21:13
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VOCH,

What a load of BS. If you really are a VOCH you certainly didn't work for CX for the last 30 years.
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