Hong Kong dying
As the Western World and Organizations are struggling to battle through this deliberately released Chinese virus, a more sinister play is at hand. China are now bulldozing their way through HK and the S. China Sea and everyone else is too distracted with their countries and economies in freefall!
Unfortunately the majority of people will not see this until it is too late.
Of course the media are aware of this but they are being paid nicely by China to continue to stir the racist (USA) and covid (Europe) cauldrons.
Does anybody on here remember the Yellow Vest Protests in France for the past few years? Not really. Media. Blackout.
But hey, maybe I am crazy.
Unfortunately the majority of people will not see this until it is too late.
Of course the media are aware of this but they are being paid nicely by China to continue to stir the racist (USA) and covid (Europe) cauldrons.
Does anybody on here remember the Yellow Vest Protests in France for the past few years? Not really. Media. Blackout.
But hey, maybe I am crazy.
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controlledrest
Good luck smacking down the worlds second largest economy. Soon to be the largest economy, and hence then taking the spot from the US as the “worlds policeman”.
To be fair they would probably do a better job than the Americans did as long as you are the ones looking in and not the ones looking out.
Good luck smacking down the worlds second largest economy. Soon to be the largest economy, and hence then taking the spot from the US as the “worlds policeman”.
To be fair they would probably do a better job than the Americans did as long as you are the ones looking in and not the ones looking out.
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Hot 'n' High
You left out ‘money’.
That’s all they care about.
SMT said it himself; “I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China.”
If you think life is about living on the top floor of a 60 story building, having a DH carry your kid’s school bag for them, owning a Ferrari that has never averaged more than 40kph, having a 50ft yacht that you haven’t seen for 3 years, then knock yourself out- stay in Hong Kong China.
If you value the simpler things in life, then I suggest you get out now.
You left out ‘money’.
That’s all they care about.
SMT said it himself; “I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China.”
If you think life is about living on the top floor of a 60 story building, having a DH carry your kid’s school bag for them, owning a Ferrari that has never averaged more than 40kph, having a 50ft yacht that you haven’t seen for 3 years, then knock yourself out- stay in Hong Kong China.
If you value the simpler things in life, then I suggest you get out now.
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Regardless of wether it is Africa, Australia the UK or anywhere else getting into debt with China is going to end badly, its caused by shortsighted often corrupt politicians failing to develop national industries for short term gain or popularity. We are dealing with a Chinese Dictatorship intent on global economic takeover and we are letting it happen, even encouraging it, when we should be developing our own industry and technology. Cheap deals in the short term destroys home enterprise, when you have the ability to produce thats when the price goes up
Student protests only accelerated the speed that China absorbed HK, it was going to happen and no one outside was going to do more than mild protest.
Student protests only accelerated the speed that China absorbed HK, it was going to happen and no one outside was going to do more than mild protest.
Hot 'n' High
I feel for your family history and those of the three families you remember. At the end of the day one has to survive - and sacrifices has to be made - you know this better than I do, I’m privileged in comparison.
However, I believe it’s important to strive to compare with stronger and successful democracies and not corrupted undemocratic regimes like the Chinese one and more and more so the Hong Kong one. It’s a natural human instinct to look at those worse off and then feel ok, but it’s ultimately not a healthy one. Admire freedom and democracy - Hong Kong has fallen down the wrong path.
I feel for your family history and those of the three families you remember. At the end of the day one has to survive - and sacrifices has to be made - you know this better than I do, I’m privileged in comparison.
However, I believe it’s important to strive to compare with stronger and successful democracies and not corrupted undemocratic regimes like the Chinese one and more and more so the Hong Kong one. It’s a natural human instinct to look at those worse off and then feel ok, but it’s ultimately not a healthy one. Admire freedom and democracy - Hong Kong has fallen down the wrong path.
LapSap, you do have a point re "being driven by money" - like parts of all societies to some extent - but that is but one aspect of national development.
So, for example, will China wish to "normalise HK" and blend it more into mainland China? In a way, it's a bit embarrassing politically having a "legacy jewel" so they may wish to make an example of the place - a message for those on the margins of China who might be looking towards independence - such as Tibet. The protests we have seen will simply have strengthened Chinese resolve in that department. It also depends if the Chinese elite wish to maintain their own private "getaway" on the coast. And how will HK, in the longer term, fit in to overall Chinese economic development; how HK developed before the handover is no indication of how it will move forward from here. As noted by some, China is now off-loading production elsewhere on cost grounds so the economy itself is starting to morph. And there is the whole "The South China Sea's Gathering Storm" Thread in "Military Aviation" which makes HK just an "annoyance", the solution to which will pale into insignificance compared to what else is going on in the region.
I really don't know. However, in closing, I return to my view that, in setting up the transition arrangements, the UK implied things would happen in a certain way when it was quite clear that another path would be followed. Either the UK Government were naive - or they simply lied. TBH, with the UK, it's hard to know which!!!!
So, for example, will China wish to "normalise HK" and blend it more into mainland China? In a way, it's a bit embarrassing politically having a "legacy jewel" so they may wish to make an example of the place - a message for those on the margins of China who might be looking towards independence - such as Tibet. The protests we have seen will simply have strengthened Chinese resolve in that department. It also depends if the Chinese elite wish to maintain their own private "getaway" on the coast. And how will HK, in the longer term, fit in to overall Chinese economic development; how HK developed before the handover is no indication of how it will move forward from here. As noted by some, China is now off-loading production elsewhere on cost grounds so the economy itself is starting to morph. And there is the whole "The South China Sea's Gathering Storm" Thread in "Military Aviation" which makes HK just an "annoyance", the solution to which will pale into insignificance compared to what else is going on in the region.
I really don't know. However, in closing, I return to my view that, in setting up the transition arrangements, the UK implied things would happen in a certain way when it was quite clear that another path would be followed. Either the UK Government were naive - or they simply lied. TBH, with the UK, it's hard to know which!!!!
Update - I see Sam Ting Wongs' post to which I refer has gone - I'll leave this post in place - Mods, please delete if now superfluous.
Sam Ting Wong, I apologise as my comments were not intended to be condescending nor hypocritical - maybe "sad despair mixed with weariness". What those people did as individuals is, as you say, to be highly commended and extremely brave, just as Tiananmen Square was 3 decades ago, and countless other examples over the years, Tibet being yet another good example.
The point I was making (badly it seems) is that the response of the HK protesters was, I suspect, based on what they believed would happen during and after the transition. That vision was generated by what Britain believed it had negotiated with China ahead of the withdrawal. But was that "vision" realistic in the first place? We have many cases where Britain has assumed things would work out in a certain way when, in fact, from those on the ground, it was quite obvious that a disaster was opening up. Zimbabwe is a classic case where they thought one thing would happen where those on the ground knew what the true result would be when Mugabe seized power. The result was cataclysmic - and predictable - for the entire population - and the West did nothing. And that was against a tin-pot Dictator where no-one actually knows how many were dumped down mineshafts. Lets say 100,000 which falls in the lower end of the estimates I've come across - and that's before you even consider the Zimbawean economy - if that's what you call it - and those who have died of avoidable famine and political thuggery.
If, as I believe, the HK handover agreement for 50 years was destined to unravel earlier based on China's "form", then the valiant struggles of the protesters is based on being sold an unachievable dream in the first place. That is the great sadness. Of course, "we are where we are" and there are rallying cries about it - Lord Patten said today/yesterday that "if the EU went ahead with the economic deal with China, which has not yet been ratified by the European parliament, it would make a 'mockery' of Europe's ambitions to be taken seriously as a global and economic player.". So that has to be backed up by action or else it is yet more hollow words.
My frustration is not with the poor protesters - but with what I believe was an unrealistic goal from the outset - that the "one country, two systems" would remain until 2047. My argument is that the protesters were let down and that a more realistic acceptance by Britain back in the 80's and early 90's of how a more rapid transition should have been managed was not pursued - the 50 year deal seems very much like "kicking a can down the road" until it becomes another generations problem. Beijing signed to get a signature - that was it and they now are clearly tired of "kicking the can". So, where do we go on a global basis? China has never been one for backing down and they have considerable expansionist plans which involve far, far more than HK. It's clear the Western world is undecided as to how far to push and what can be achieved. The risk of a major confrontation is growing - the out-turn of which is something I don't think anyone can know.
However, from my connections in Beijing, the people seem to get on, have a reasonable way of life with, I know, areas of abject poverty too. But China has been improving conditions - and will continue to do so. You, yourself said at Post #6 that "The ascent of China and Asia has just begun, and with a loyal government in charge HK will have the continuous support of Beijing. I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China.". I guess the question, for HK at least, is would it be better to accept the "50 year deal" was unachievable so work with Beijing and accept that HK is making the best of a bad job and that full integration happens before 2047 - or to hold out for broke. That is for HK locals to decide. As for the wider expansionist plans by Beijing; well, that's a whole new problem the West must try and figure out.
Sam Ting Wong, I apologise as my comments were not intended to be condescending nor hypocritical - maybe "sad despair mixed with weariness". What those people did as individuals is, as you say, to be highly commended and extremely brave, just as Tiananmen Square was 3 decades ago, and countless other examples over the years, Tibet being yet another good example.
The point I was making (badly it seems) is that the response of the HK protesters was, I suspect, based on what they believed would happen during and after the transition. That vision was generated by what Britain believed it had negotiated with China ahead of the withdrawal. But was that "vision" realistic in the first place? We have many cases where Britain has assumed things would work out in a certain way when, in fact, from those on the ground, it was quite obvious that a disaster was opening up. Zimbabwe is a classic case where they thought one thing would happen where those on the ground knew what the true result would be when Mugabe seized power. The result was cataclysmic - and predictable - for the entire population - and the West did nothing. And that was against a tin-pot Dictator where no-one actually knows how many were dumped down mineshafts. Lets say 100,000 which falls in the lower end of the estimates I've come across - and that's before you even consider the Zimbawean economy - if that's what you call it - and those who have died of avoidable famine and political thuggery.
If, as I believe, the HK handover agreement for 50 years was destined to unravel earlier based on China's "form", then the valiant struggles of the protesters is based on being sold an unachievable dream in the first place. That is the great sadness. Of course, "we are where we are" and there are rallying cries about it - Lord Patten said today/yesterday that "if the EU went ahead with the economic deal with China, which has not yet been ratified by the European parliament, it would make a 'mockery' of Europe's ambitions to be taken seriously as a global and economic player.". So that has to be backed up by action or else it is yet more hollow words.
My frustration is not with the poor protesters - but with what I believe was an unrealistic goal from the outset - that the "one country, two systems" would remain until 2047. My argument is that the protesters were let down and that a more realistic acceptance by Britain back in the 80's and early 90's of how a more rapid transition should have been managed was not pursued - the 50 year deal seems very much like "kicking a can down the road" until it becomes another generations problem. Beijing signed to get a signature - that was it and they now are clearly tired of "kicking the can". So, where do we go on a global basis? China has never been one for backing down and they have considerable expansionist plans which involve far, far more than HK. It's clear the Western world is undecided as to how far to push and what can be achieved. The risk of a major confrontation is growing - the out-turn of which is something I don't think anyone can know.
However, from my connections in Beijing, the people seem to get on, have a reasonable way of life with, I know, areas of abject poverty too. But China has been improving conditions - and will continue to do so. You, yourself said at Post #6 that "The ascent of China and Asia has just begun, and with a loyal government in charge HK will have the continuous support of Beijing. I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China.". I guess the question, for HK at least, is would it be better to accept the "50 year deal" was unachievable so work with Beijing and accept that HK is making the best of a bad job and that full integration happens before 2047 - or to hold out for broke. That is for HK locals to decide. As for the wider expansionist plans by Beijing; well, that's a whole new problem the West must try and figure out.
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Was just about to put in a non-directional form hotn high.Cheers.
Considering how easy it apparently is to brainwash thousands of alledgedly free American deplorables to storm the Capitol, all that just with a few tweets by an evil president, a bit of Foxnews and a selection of Facebook feeds, maybe spare a thought for the poor mainland Chinese. They grow up within a ruthless state school system, life-long surveillance and a wrong word could land you in a labor camp. Let's not mix up the government with the people.
Considering how easy it apparently is to brainwash thousands of alledgedly free American deplorables to storm the Capitol, all that just with a few tweets by an evil president, a bit of Foxnews and a selection of Facebook feeds, maybe spare a thought for the poor mainland Chinese. They grow up within a ruthless state school system, life-long surveillance and a wrong word could land you in a labor camp. Let's not mix up the government with the people.
No probs STW. I completely agree - and am sorry that it came across otherwise. A dreadful situation to find yourself in as a local - made worse by the politicians who brokered the deal in the first place? And, yes, the boys played the tightrope from Day 1 - but still love the Chinese (people). Anyway, I'll bow out here as I've bored everyone enough I suspect! Cheers, H 'n' H
Sam Ting Wong
I thought the French media had the better perspective, they distinguish between the bulk of the demonstrators and the 'casseurs', the people who are there to break things. The Germans have the 'chaoten', the chaos producers.
These individuals rely on the cover of the mass demonstration to perform violent acts, in the expectation of creating worse. It seems a form of political terrorism which is very effective. The sponsorship would be very interesting imho.
I thought the French media had the better perspective, they distinguish between the bulk of the demonstrators and the 'casseurs', the people who are there to break things. The Germans have the 'chaoten', the chaos producers.
These individuals rely on the cover of the mass demonstration to perform violent acts, in the expectation of creating worse. It seems a form of political terrorism which is very effective. The sponsorship would be very interesting imho.
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Oh, cry me a river, STW!
Have a look at the pictures of DC from the riots in June! Not a "deplorable" to be seen! Just "mostly peaceful" black folks, looking for some education.........
Have a look at the pictures of DC from the riots in June! Not a "deplorable" to be seen! Just "mostly peaceful" black folks, looking for some education.........
etudiant
That is spot on.
The vision of over a million peaceful marchers from all walks of HK society on a couple of weekends in 2019 was extremely moving and sending a reasonable message to Beijing.
As soon as the 100 or so extremely athletic looking (much more than any wimpy HK uni student I had seen in 20 years) and ‘geared up’ radicals or casseurs as you put it appeared on the scene, trashing public infrastructure, the whole original impetus of the ordinary people was lost.
Who they were (always seemed to be the same ones who magically ran just before police arrived) and who was responsible for their sponsorship was always a big question mark for me.
That is spot on.
The vision of over a million peaceful marchers from all walks of HK society on a couple of weekends in 2019 was extremely moving and sending a reasonable message to Beijing.
As soon as the 100 or so extremely athletic looking (much more than any wimpy HK uni student I had seen in 20 years) and ‘geared up’ radicals or casseurs as you put it appeared on the scene, trashing public infrastructure, the whole original impetus of the ordinary people was lost.
Who they were (always seemed to be the same ones who magically ran just before police arrived) and who was responsible for their sponsorship was always a big question mark for me.
All these posts about freedom and moral righteousness. It's actually very simple. Hong Kong is the meat in the Sandwich of a great power struggle. The struggle is not a struggle between 800lb Gorillas (USA and China) it's a struggle of one growing silverback (China) against a coalition of others (USA, UK, China, India, Australia etc.) who are growing tired of it's tyrannical, coercion.
Hong Kong will no longer be relevant in the world and, as long as China remains communist, they and their growth will be contained. Manufacturers are already leaving and many business interactions with China are being made illegal.
If I was in Hong Kong, I'd get out while I still could.
Hong Kong will no longer be relevant in the world and, as long as China remains communist, they and their growth will be contained. Manufacturers are already leaving and many business interactions with China are being made illegal.
If I was in Hong Kong, I'd get out while I still could.