Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Group redundacy, BS

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Group redundacy, BS

Old 24th Sep 2020, 14:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 160
https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20200...MM5JZ5T26JCNE/
fly1981 is online now  
Old 24th Sep 2020, 15:46
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Na
Posts: 0
Its easier to just let go of 1200 pilots they dont need rather than to not have them fly and pay them half pay.


destiny78 is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2020, 15:53
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: All over
Posts: 624
Thanks Gnads!
b.
boocs is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 01:36
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by destiny78 View Post
Its easier to just let go of 1200 pilots they dont need rather than to not have them fly and pay them half pay.
easier in the short term, no one can predict when travel will return to full swing, it could be next week, it could be in 2026. With the 3rd runway well ahead of schedule, slots will be on the market soon, with competitors chomping at the bit. I imagine the group will be wanting to maintain resources as far as possible. Itís easy to make 1200 pilots redundant, when demand picks up, itís not so easy to just get pilots back in the seat. Substantial long term pay cut across the board would make sense, followed by redundancy as a last resort.
that's just a guess, only time will tell.

Last edited by fly1981; 25th Sep 2020 at 01:56.
fly1981 is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 01:42
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
easier in the short term, no one can predict when travel will return to full swing, it could be next week, it could be in 2026. With the 3rd runway well ahead of schedule, slots will be on the market soon, with competitors chomping at the bit. I imagine the group will be wanting to maintain resources as far as possible. Substantial long term pay cut across the board would make sense, followed by redundancy as a last resort.
that's just a guess, only time will tell.
Keep dreaming!!!

Btw, itís ďchampingĒ, not ďchompingĒ.
cxorcist is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 03:15
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
KA pilots and DPA have always done their own thing and for the large part did better than CX pilots and HKAOA. This "I'm alright Jack, f*** you" attitude
has come back to bite them in the ass now. "You reep what you sow".
Hmmm. Do I detect a hint of hostility towards the KA boys and girls?!

Apart from doing our own thing what was it we were supposed to be doing for you United?

As you are saying we are about to be 'bitten in the ass' could you please give us the benefit of your inside knowledge because we all want to know what the big plan is for the Dragonair scum.

Are you saying CX pilots will be exempt from the changes coming next month? News flash for you United: You're not special. None of us are, we're just group employees.

The company will do what they need to do and there is nothing the HKAOA or the DPA can do about it other than sit and wait for the update next month. Good luck to everyone in the group, including you United.
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 03:31
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
Hmmm. Do I detect a hint of hostility towards the KA boys and girls?!

Apart from doing our own thing what was it we were supposed to be doing for you United?

As you are saying we are about to be 'bitten in the ass' could you please give us the benefit of your inside knowledge because we all want to know what the big plan is for the Dragonair scum.

Are you saying CX pilots will be exempt from the changes coming next month? News flash for you United: You're not special. None of us are, we're just group employees.

The company will do what they need to do and there is nothing the HKAOA or the DPA can do about it other than sit and wait for the update next month. Good luck to everyone in the group, including you United.
I couldn't give a toss about KA or the DPA and vice versa.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 03:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Great White North of the 49th
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
easier in the short term, no one can predict when travel will return to full swing, it could be next week, it could be in 2026. With the 3rd runway well ahead of schedule, slots will be on the market soon, with competitors chomping at the bit. I imagine the group will be wanting to maintain resources as far as possible. Itís easy to make 1200 pilots redundant, when demand picks up, itís not so easy to just get pilots back in the seat. Substantial long term pay cut across the board would make sense, followed by redundancy as a last resort.
that's just a guess, only time will tell.
Ummm No. No one can predict when travel will return but it definitely wonít be next week. Thatís not a prediction, itís a fact.
Drc40 is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 04:27
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Straya
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
easier in the short term, no one can predict when travel will return to full swing, it could be next week, it could be in 2026. With the 3rd runway well ahead of schedule, slots will be on the market soon, with competitors chomping at the bit. I imagine the group will be wanting to maintain resources as far as possible. Itís easy to make 1200 pilots redundant, when demand picks up, itís not so easy to just get pilots back in the seat. Substantial long term pay cut across the board would make sense, followed by redundancy as a last resort.
that's just a guess, only time will tell.
Strategically speaking, if the ultimate goal is to save the company while replacing all expats with local workforce, this might be a golden opportunity for them. You just can't come up with any better reason other than being made redundant.
ChrissyPrezzie is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 05:16
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by Drc40 View Post
Ummm No. No one can predict when travel will return but it definitely wonít be next week. Thatís not a prediction, itís a fact.
Ummmm, No. there are no FACTS( ie a point proven to be true) highly unlikely, agreed, but no one knows... least of all, the pilots.
fly1981 is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 05:22
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by ChrissyPrezzie View Post
Strategically speaking, if the ultimate goal is to save the company while replacing all expats with local workforce, this might be a golden opportunity for them. You just can't come up with any better reason other than being made redundant.
for sure, however, it is not cheap to make expats redundant( especially senior pilots)
fly1981 is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 05:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 16
It wouldn't make financial sense to reduce pay across the fleet but still keep crew members at home doing nothing.

Furloughing is always an option, sent home on either zero pay or maybe CX will still pay for housing / allowance, that's up to the board members, but I don't see them wanting to pay for anything. Normally one is not allowed to work anywhere else whilst on furlough. A 6 month furlough is an easy option for CX, but I wouldn't bet on it because they would have done it already, what's on the table is a huge change, and that can only be redundancies. How many.. well the figures are looking like 1000 for CX and 200 for the others give or take. They may only keep 100 on furlough and let the rest go, who knows. If the company offer 6 months furlough, go home and save money, and when I say home I don't mean HK. Don't bankrupt yourself living in HK waiting for the call, I'll be on the first plane out of HK just to save money, if you have a house then rent it out etc. There is NO guarantee they will call you in 6 months, they can just keep postponing it.

My personal opinion is that they will furlough pilots from HKE and KA with a very small basic salary to keep them around, but CX I see only redundancies..

Things will not go back to normal or the levels we have seen for many years to come and CX know that. Regional flying I don't see a problem with in say a year, but long haul is a tricky one with tourism, I think it will take two or three years for people to start to forget about this COVID-19.

Anyone know of the number of Captains / First Officers / Second Officers currently at Cathay?
Oli777 is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 07:05
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 10
How will they go about a LIFO? Dosent make sense for company to get rid of cos18 guys , defeats the whole purpose of a new COS. Plus majority them is on 747.
WeelardPassord is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 08:00
  #34 (permalink)  
Rie
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by WeelardPassord View Post
How will they go about a LIFO? Dosent make sense for company to get rid of cos18 guys , defeats the whole purpose of a new COS. Plus majority them is on 747.
From my understanding the purpose of the new COS is to LIFO. So in theory this does creates a "parallel" seniority list of people who cannot be affected by LIFO. LIFO therefore starts from those at the back end on COS99/08/18.

If someone was willing to sign onto COS18 I can assure you they will get numbers signing COS20 to protect themselves.

Last edited by Rie; 25th Sep 2020 at 08:00. Reason: Additional info that added nothing
Rie is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 09:05
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Rie View Post
From my understanding the purpose of the new COS is to LIFO. So in theory this does creates a "parallel" seniority list of people who cannot be affected by LIFO. LIFO therefore starts from those at the back end on COS99/08/18.

If someone was willing to sign onto COS18 I can assure you they will get numbers signing COS20 to protect themselves.
I don't see any pilots on ARAPA signing over to a COS20 type contract. I don't see any pilots taking pay cuts to save jobs below their seniority number. So the only way to do things fairly is to stick to the contract. Redundancies should be made LIFO! Be it 20-25% of the pilot work force then that's just tough luck. It seems that 20-25% has been the standard in the industry. Considering CX will bounce back strong I predict about 20% of pilot cuts across both KA and CX.

With regards to redundancies (LIFO) and the concern about the COS18 747 pilots (FO), ask yourself why are they now transferring even more pilots across to the 747? They will be transferring around about 100 pilots in total..seems like they trying to fill a gap? Don't fool yourself they will have to do the same on the airbus soon.

I am sure that pilots that are lucky enough to keep their positions will all have to take some kind of pay cut for a few years. One thing we know for certain is CX will tell us soon, they need to have a quick and clean break up. I will definitely be affected by these numbers I am predicting. Yes it sucks but I won't be pointing fingers to people etc. Take it on the chin, you have hopefully saved money(well hopefully), you are not over spending now (hopefully). The sun will come up again tomorrow and so will the world continue. One day the governments are going to realise their banks are empty and they will open up!

Enjoy people, life is not all about a job.
herewego75 is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 13:48
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 361
Which people would you like us to enjoy ?
Globocnik is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 14:16
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 513
herewego75.

A very good post. I agree. Follow the contracts, LIFO. Get on with life. Things will eventually turnaround when governments realize that Covid is not the bubonic plague and can be dealt with more rationally, that money doesnít grow on trees, and economies reopen. At some point, in the not too distant future, expect to be recalled/rehired in seniority when things turnaround (they always do). Come back at that time if it suits you, otherwise continue down a new path in life.
raven11 is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 16:00
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DSOTM
Posts: 197
Effectively increasing the block hour unit cost in this environment is not something the accountants would have recommended.

The recent murmurs of everyone getting their notice and them offering COS20 -1200 or so pilots (whether they be redundant or on furlough, whatever that may mean) just sounds a lot more like a corporate solution given the amount of flying we will all be doing for the foreseeable future.

We will see soon enough, either way it is going to suck. I however donít see them keeping the same contracts for everyone whilst they cut off the cheapest part of their workforce. It might not be fair, but life isnít fair is it.
drfaust is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 20:37
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
I couldn't give a toss about KA or the DPA and vice versa.
What was that you were saying about a 'fxxk you, I'm alright Jack attitude'? There I was wishing you all the best and that's the response. Says it all really.
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 21:38
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 621
herewego75

"It seems that 20-25% has been the standard in the industry. Considering CX will bounce back strong I predict about 20% of pilot cuts across both KA and CX. "

Dreaming ???
Without question you cannot compare CX to "industry standard"...
For example, US airlines (pre China Virus) would have 20000+ domestic flights PER DAY. How many does CX have ?
It's unquestionable fact that international flights will be the hardest hit AND be the last sector to recover with some economists saying "if ever"
Australia, for example, "may not" allow international flights until July 2021 !!! What then, back to normal overnight?
Additionally, if you wish to call KA mainland flights "domestic", that sector is 100% controlled by the thugs up North which have ZERO empathy for poor old Swires .

Sad, every way you look at it..

#CXIT

Flex88 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.