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End of year Restructure

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

End of year Restructure

Old 4th Jul 2020, 07:30
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Angel End of year Restructure

There are several potential restructuring strategies and tricks to cut costs further to save the airline even after the gov bailout...

1) All people change to newer COS (E.g. 99 -> 08, 08->18, 18->20)
2) New COS 20 with lower base and hourly rate, maintain target hours (monthly/yearly) [Almost to the max anyway, just to minimise productivity pay]
3) Suspend pilot recruitment for SO or cadet (FO recruitment may continue due to resignation/retirement)
4) Possible redundancies if merge with UO (Certain demotions for each rank, may temporarily impose no-pay leave for new join SO [period: 2 months or more], last step: Last-in-first-out)
5) Delay contract signing for new joiner
6) Some training captains will drop to line captain UFN
7) Downsizing KA's route and fleet
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 08:40
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Ahhh, you make it so complicated! Why not make it more simple and all pilots just work for nothing?

.......F&@king idiot
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 09:05
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Originally Posted by Brown Nose View Post
Ahhh, you make it so complicated! Why not make it more simple and all pilots just work for nothing?

.......F&@king idiot
Indeed. [email protected]
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 20:49
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Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
if you don’t agree at least debate him but just being insulting doesn’t strengthen your argument.
I can easily see the company trying to impose a new contract and trimming down of KA.
Those expectations are being managed already in the red corner by judicious leaks.
Our own senior management are equally “pessimistic” and would be delighted to attempt the same.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 23:44
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Exactly. Notice it's the OP's first post. Expectation Management leak. Management 101, and CX has been doing it for years.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 00:46
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You’d have to be crazy to not think something will happen. For 5 months the airline has operated at somewhere between 5-20% normal capacity. All other airlines around the world have laid off significant numbers of staff and are expecting this crisis to continue well into 2021. What makes us think Hong Kong is any different?

Can any of us predict exactly what will come, probably not. I don’t think anyone saw the government contributing a 5 billion dollar bailout. I’m sure if that didn’t go through we’d already have experienced whatever cuts are to come.

until then I’m still being paid and better off than most of my colleagues at other airlines.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 02:06
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
Exactly. Notice it's the OP's first post. Expectation Management leak. Management 101, and CX has been doing it for years.
🙄if I had a dollar for every time there has been a ‘management leak’ in the last few months, I would not need to fly again...NOT ONE of These ‘apparent’ leaks has proved even remotely true.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 02:17
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Yes I came to PPRuNe to listen to well-connected authorities like "unitedcx" whose speculation was consistently and wildly inaccurate. Should have stuck with my own sources from the HK Club. Below was from April. Leaks at the time, about a week before the latest fuel hedge fiasco became known, said the situation hopeless without a government bail out and that the "they'd" got it wrong again with fuel.

Only murmurs I'm hearing now are jobs must be saved for locals.

Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
Yes, this is bailout territory now. Was heartening to hear rumours of the ease of credit available recently. But if its paying off a bad fuel hedge bet, rumours of a government intervention requirement plausible and where will Air China play out?

The intent of a more rapid transfiguration of Hong Kong, aided by a crisis, will have implications for a highly visible flagship.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 6th Jul 2020 at 03:17.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 03:20
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item 6, what a pisser that would be for the 'volunteers'!
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 06:34
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Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
What an absolutely ludicrous thread.
Why would the company allow 99 to go to 08? Why not everyone on cos18?

I guess the only thing that has been written here that might, MIGHT be correct is - I agree KA will be downsized ( HKE can do all the work they do ), and when CX is allowed to shit the slots/ route rights over they will.

Personal opinion.
now that the government is involved in the group, China will become the priority( not to mention the fact that they are the highest traveling nation in the world) ka is not going anywhere, They own 85 percent of the Chinese routes, with the Neo’s arriving they will fit the position perfectly for the lower capacity forecast, not necessarily in China, but many other group destinations. A new top dog introduced, followed by an advert for flight deck crew placed on the 18th June 2020 must make ka one of the only ‘hiring’ airlines in the world. Cx has been trying to merge ka since they bought the airline, if it’s not demerit points, it’s another excuse. If anything, hke is dead in the water, low cost airlines all over the world are folding everyday...holiday travel, which is what they exist for is not going to be back to ‘normal’ for a long time to come...a new cos across the board doesn’t make sense, after all it would unify the pilot body. Cost saving will come with the introduction of ‘minor’changes’ to current COS, policy’s that cost a lot of money will be changed, Early retirement offered for the top ranks, voluntary redundancy worst case scenario. At the end of the day, it all depends on which way this thing turns next, I don’t believe anyone in the driving seat knows exactly what is to come . One thing is for sure, the Hong Kong pilot pool has done a lot better than those in the Middle East, be grateful for that.

as you said, personal opinion.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 06:46
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
now that the government is involved in the group, China will become the priority( not to mention the fact that they are the highest traveling nation in the world) ka is not going anywhere, They own 85 percent of the Chinese routes, with the Neo’s arriving they will fit the position perfectly for the lower capacity forecast, not necessarily in China, but many other group destinations. A new top dog introduced, followed by an advert for flight deck crew placed on the 18th June 2020 must make ka one of the only ‘hiring’ airlines in the world. Cx has been trying to merge ka since they bought the airline, if it’s not demerit points, it’s another excuse. If anything, hke is dead in the water, low cost airlines all over the world are folding everyday...holiday travel, which is what they exist for is not going to be back to ‘normal’ for a long time to come...a new cos across the board doesn’t make sense, after all it would unify the pilot body. Cost saving will come with the introduction of ‘minor’changes’ to current COS, policy’s that cost a lot of money will be changed, Early retirement offered for the top ranks, voluntary redundancy worst case scenario. At the end of the day, it all depends on which way this thing turns next, I don’t believe anyone in the driving seat knows exactly what is to come . One thing is for sure, the Hong Kong pilot pool has done a lot better than those in the Middle East, be grateful for that.

as you said, personal opinion.

I believe the NEOs are going into storage?
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 06:53
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Originally Posted by allwobbly View Post
i believe the neos are going into storage?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
if anything is going into storage it’s the 777’s at this rate.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 07:29
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HKE is taking delivery of a NEO this month and another in the next.

Dos not sound like an airline dead in the water.
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 07:33
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Originally Posted by Ecam321 View Post
HKE is taking delivery of a NEO this month and another in the next.

Dos not sound like an airline dead in the water.
thats great👍 The apparent restructure is only due 4th quarter. Guess only time will tell....
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Old 6th Jul 2020, 08:09
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
if anything is going into storage it’s the 777’s at this rate.
There will be lots (777and330) going into storage soon. They can’t be left in HK much longer as they’re rotting away.
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Old 8th Jul 2020, 02:31
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Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
https://www.reuters.com/article/heal...-idUSL4N2EC0NL

I wonder if LIFO will be the way they cut jobs?
Not sure what your contract says, but mine is very clear. I expect it to be followed. If it’s not, I expect my union to enforce the contract, in court if necessary.

Obviously, these cuts should have been made 4-5 months ago, but here CX is paying know nothing “pilots” for literally nothing. I know they are cheap, but they are not free. You have to be pretty cynical to think this is an industrial play against expats while the airline fights to survive.

Loyalty to non-essential staff is actually a betrayal of the airline as a whole in times like these. Apparently, CX has other plans, or maybe they don’t and are a truly rudderless ship.
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Old 8th Jul 2020, 03:07
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Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
https://www.reuters.com/article/heal...-idUSL4N2EC0NL

I wonder if LIFO will be the way they cut jobs?

not sure how that article leads to last in first out, airlines all over the world send aircraft to dry environments for storage, from a maintenance perspective makes complete sense. It will be interesting to see which fleets loose most airframes, as mentioned previously, my bet is 777 and 330’s to go first.
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Old 8th Jul 2020, 03:48
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
not sure how that article leads to last in first out, airlines all over the world send aircraft to dry environments for storage, from a maintenance perspective makes complete sense. It will be interesting to see which fleets loose most airframes, as mentioned previously, my bet is 777 and 330’s to go first.
Pretty simple maths 1981, parked airplanes equals excess pilots. Pilots aren’t geniuses, but do try to keep up mate!!!
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Old 8th Jul 2020, 03:59
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Pretty simple maths 1981, parked airplanes equals excess pilots. Pilots aren’t geniuses, but do try to keep up mate!!!
im not disagreeing with the excess pilot story ‘mate’( a term I really don’t like throwing around, especially as I doubt you and I would fall into that category) the fact that they are going into ‘storage’, and as you quit correctly stated, pilots are not geniuses, so, in case you cannot keep up, straight off Wikipedia is defined as:



storage

noun
  1. the action or method of storing something for future use.”

The excess pilot pool will no doubt exist, it could be temporary, possibly permanent, who knows, one thing is for certain, they won’t deal with that until they have a better idea. As for LIFO, no point kicking a dead horse, that point has been discussed. Ask your EK/QR/BA ‘mates’ how that is working out for them...



Last edited by fly1981; 8th Jul 2020 at 04:24.
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Old 8th Jul 2020, 04:56
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
im not disagreeing with the excess pilot story ‘mate’( a term I really don’t like throwing around, especially as I doubt you and I would fall into that category) the fact that they are going into ‘storage’, and as you quit correctly stated, pilots are not geniuses, so, in case you cannot keep up, straight off Wikipedia is defined as:



storage

noun
  1. the action or method of storing something for future use.”

The excess pilot pool will no doubt exist, it could be temporary, possibly permanent, who knows, one thing is for certain, they won’t deal with that until they have a better idea. As for LIFO, no point kicking a dead horse, that point has been discussed. Ask your EK/QR/BA ‘mates’ how that is working out for them...
Keep dreaming MATE! Good luck with your juniority. Maybe CX will give you an extra few bars just for being cheap. In the end, that’s all you’ve got going for you. Right?
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