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Losing recency

Old 25th Apr 2020, 14:23
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Losing recency

Wondering if the ones losing recency will be fired first....
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 23:21
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More likely to be the ones with a join date of April 2020!

Last edited by Aero Vodochody; 26th Apr 2020 at 07:56.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 05:52
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Originally Posted by C152Heavy View Post
Wondering if the ones losing recency will be fired first....
no, seniority.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 07:35
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Bases first?
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 08:03
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Originally Posted by cabbages View Post
Bases first?
Unlikely because they can simply return to Hong Kong it's global seniority! Makes more sense to offer early retirements and incentives to more senior people to take redundancy before working the way from bottom to top on forced layoffs, but non the less it has to be bottom to top!
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 08:26
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I am as clueless as everyone else out there about this. There is a clause in the PBPA, 15.1, where it outlines crew can elect to return to HK other than in 'abnormal circumstances'. Could the company close a base and use this clause to prevent crew returning to HK?
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 08:34
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Originally Posted by cabbages View Post
I am as clueless as everyone else out there about this. There is a clause in the PBPA, 15.1, where it outlines crew can elect to return to HK other than in 'abnormal circumstances'. Could the company close a base and use this clause to prevent crew returning to HK?
Yes. Yes. And...yes.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 09:31
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Originally Posted by cabbages View Post
I am as clueless as everyone else out there about this. There is a clause in the PBPA, 15.1, where it outlines crew can elect to return to HK other than in 'abnormal circumstances'. Could the company close a base and use this clause to prevent crew returning to HK?
15.1 refers to a Voluntary return to Hong Kong base closure/reduction in crewing levels on home base falls under section 13.

13.1 clearly lays out what would happen in the event of a base closure/reduction in overall crewing levels and it doesn't include such language, so the based crew would return to Hong Kong if they wanted too.

The big concern here is actually what would happen in Hong Kong if they needed to reduce the workforce as the employment ordinance might allow Hong Kong based pilots to be made redundant out of Seniority given the circumstances, very concerning!
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 10:55
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Let's hope we get some clarity after the meeting with the AOA on the 29th.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 11:51
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Originally Posted by LLLQNH View Post
15.1 refers to a Voluntary return to Hong Kong base closure/reduction in crewing levels on home base falls under section 13.

13.1 clearly lays out what would happen in the event of a base closure/reduction in overall crewing levels and it doesn't include such language, so the based crew would return to Hong Kong if they wanted too.

The big concern here is actually what would happen in Hong Kong if they needed to reduce the workforce as the employment ordinance might allow Hong Kong based pilots to be made redundant out of Seniority given the circumstances, very concerning!
HTF did you get to any of that. ? Please supply the supporting reference. Last in, first out. At least in HK. And they ainít going to waste any money repatriating anybody on a base back to HK. To elevated salary, or benefits.
You rather pre suppose that any of this is anything other than moot. No money left, lights go out. Make your own way home. And the obligation to repatriate guys ( condition of employment visa. Not a condition of HK permanent ID ) is again moot if thereís no money left.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 12:22
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Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
HTF did you get to any of that. ? Please supply the supporting reference. Last in, first out. At least in HK. And they ainít going to waste any money repatriating anybody on a base back to HK. To elevated salary, or benefits.
You rather pre suppose that any of this is anything other than moot. No money left, lights go out. Make your own way home. And the obligation to repatriate guys ( condition of employment visa. Not a condition of HK permanent ID ) is again moot if thereís no money left.
The question was raised if bases would be the first to be laid off, and it was pointed out that they wouldn't as based pilots through the Basing agreement and their individual COS will be returned to Hong Kong in the event of a base closure or reduction on a base! The reference is the basing agreement and the COs all inline with Global seniority.

yes you are correct it is last in first out in Hong Kong and on all of the bases as it is a common seniority list globally! However the concern as several have pointed out is that the HK employment ordinance might allow out of seniority layoffs due to the situation, further more as the AOa have questioned it seems to be a bit of a concern that the Cos18 pilots aren't on the common redundancy list or something like that! If your an AOa member log in and have a look there they sent a letter to the DFO questioning this.

Anyhow its all a bit silly as you suggest, the way it has to be done and the way it has always been done around the world is last in first out regardless of base etc, after all this is the main advantage of seniority and a reward for staying with an employer even if better jobs are available!
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:01
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Where does it say the HK EO allows for out of seniority lay offs. ? It makes no such pronouncements. In fact it doesnít even discuss seniority. Our C of S does. And again if they have reached the situation that they are impoverished enough to consider lay offs you can kiss goodbye to individuals returning from their bases to HK, so called global seniority or not. And our C of S are worthless then anyway.
And what recourse would these based individuals then have. ? If things are that dire they are hardly unlikely to be able to sue a non existent organization. Take a look at what can be done with an allegedly superior EBA (Oz vs HK as an example). Hasnít done them too many favours there, has it ?
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:30
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Cargo is currently the companyís lifeline. Do you really think that they are going to lay off junior 747 pilots and then pay to retrain others to fill those slots? I donít, never mind the time involved. They will do whatever they need to in order to survive and it isnít going to be pretty.
Our current lifestyle is over and no-one knows what the near future looks like, let alone 5-10 years down the line.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:40
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If your name is in the bottom 1/4 to 1/3, maybe even 2/5, I would have an exit plan.

If youíre on a base and unwilling to return to HK, I would have an exit plan.

If the Swires sell out to the ChiComs, we all need to be ready for mayhem, beyond the normal fuel hedging debacles, 49er episodes, 13th month shaftings, policy changes, punitive rostering, etc...
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:41
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747 captains are hardly junior these days...in the main. You downsize the Company, force draft guys to the jumbo if nec....theyíd probably get enough volunteers anyway. And backdraft the guys that recently went to the bus. Very senior, all of them. If they donít like it, well the door is always open. Someone has stolen it.
Lower ranks... s/oís are easily trained. 777 conversion to a -8 fairly straightforward.
As you say all bets are off.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:42
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Originally Posted by Fly747 View Post
Cargo is currently the companyís lifeline. Do you really think that they are going to lay off junior 747 pilots and then pay to retrain others to fill those slots? I donít, never mind the time involved. They will do whatever they need to in order to survive and it isnít going to be pretty.
Our current lifestyle is over and no-one knows what the near future looks like, let alone 5-10 years down the line.
Itís a very short and quick course from the 777 to the 747. CX is already training pilots on the 747, might as well be guys and gals who are going to be around in 6 months.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:58
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Itís a very short and quick course from the 777 to the 747. CX is already training pilots on the 747, might as well be guys and gals who are going to be around in 6 months.
Yes. You have to train them how to fly again. Apart from that the -8 is a more advanced machine than the 777. So conversion is a fairly short matter.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 14:53
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Canadian base agreed to a 20% cut to basic salary for no flying in May and June. Add that to total loss of credit for those months and itís a 30% pay cut overall. Thatís 100 pilots who will run out of recency and it will take months to get them all recurrent as long as we have enough trainers to do it! They might be back on the line in September just in time for the second wave of Covid19 to hit. Bases are dead!
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 15:18
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Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
Where does it say the HK EO allows for out of seniority lay offs. ? It makes no such pronouncements. In fact it doesnít even discuss seniority. Our C of S does. And again if they have reached the situation that they are impoverished enough to consider lay offs you can kiss goodbye to individuals returning from their bases to HK, so called global seniority or not. And our C of S are worthless then anyway.
And what recourse would these based individuals then have. ? If things are that dire they are hardly unlikely to be able to sue a non existent organization. Take a look at what can be done with an allegedly superior EBA (Oz vs HK as an example). Hasnít done them too many favours there, has it ?
Have a look on the Labour Department website you'll be able to find it in about 2 mins, of course it doesn't mention Seniority and airline specific items it's about employment contracts in Hong Kong and how companies can break them or amend them in certain situations.

https://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/faq/cap57k_whole.htm#q4

here you go even done the hard work for you! Question 4

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Old 26th Apr 2020, 15:23
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Originally Posted by SanMig View Post
Canadian base agreed to a 20% cut to basic salary for no flying in May and June. Add that to total loss of credit for those months and itís a 30% pay cut overall. Thatís 100 pilots who will run out of recency and it will take months to get them all recurrent as long as we have enough trainers to do it! They might be back on the line in September just in time for the second wave of Covid19 to hit. Bases are dead!
Bases might be dead, but it has NOTHING to do with recency. Almost seems like wishful thinking from SanMig, as if s/he will benefit somehow. More probable... YVR and YYZ bases close and some of those pilots come to HK while SanMig gets made redundant.

Also, 70% pay for zero work seems like a pretty good deal to me. Where do I sign up?
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