View Poll Results: Should the pilots put off industrial action until the economy has stabilized
Yes
33
42.31%
No
41
52.56%
Undecided
4
5.13%
Voters: 78. This poll is closed
Union Action
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Union Action
Personally I think the union action being talked about is disgraceful.
Why?
-The economy is suffering already without added strain on those who are struggling which would be the case if there was any action
-Unemployment in HK is at the highest rate ever to be thinking about making good salaries and benefits even better
-The threat of redundancies within CX is not gone, pilots costs growing will only increase the chances of redundancy measures
-38% support for a union leader is hardly convincing, and the majority are not in favour of further industrial action.
Finally, if those pilots are so unhappy then why don't they leave? These unhappy ones do not reflect the majority, so go back to Aus, NZ, Canada, States, Sth Africa, U.K., or somewhere else in HK if you are from HK.
Everyone is sick of this annual event.
Why?
-The economy is suffering already without added strain on those who are struggling which would be the case if there was any action
-Unemployment in HK is at the highest rate ever to be thinking about making good salaries and benefits even better
-The threat of redundancies within CX is not gone, pilots costs growing will only increase the chances of redundancy measures
-38% support for a union leader is hardly convincing, and the majority are not in favour of further industrial action.
Finally, if those pilots are so unhappy then why don't they leave? These unhappy ones do not reflect the majority, so go back to Aus, NZ, Canada, States, Sth Africa, U.K., or somewhere else in HK if you are from HK.
Everyone is sick of this annual event.
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I reproduce this for the benefit of flybygirl and the other girl pilot shortly. You both need to understand the strength of feeling that some of our people have. I am not saying that I totally agree with these views but I do think you need to read them as I assume you do not have access to the AOA web site.
"I too hope that we can resolve this dispute without such drastic measures but am beginning to believe that severe industrial action is our only hope.
12 months ago the company tried to intimidate me and my family by firing 51 people. What they succeeded in doing was to turn a moderate wife into a militant one who was so disgusted by mgt's behaviour that she is willing to move heaven and earth to ensure they do not get away with it.
I am afraid I am at a loss to understand the political position of Phil and his supporters. We are all a little scared, we are all certainly a little tired and frustrated. But to believe the same people who fired 51 colleagues are capable of genuine negotiation, to give them the benefit of the doubt, to honestly believe that a well-intentioned chat will have any impact at all, is more naive than I thought possible.
I spoke to the wife of a 49er a few weeks ago who was feeling pretty isolated and was worried about the upcoming election and the fact that Phil and his supporters on CPRUNE seemed more concerned about their "secure" jobs than they did about the plight of her family. I promised her that there were many more people in the AOA who would see this though and make sure her family regained their security and future. I promised her I would NEVER give up and would continue to fight for her family with the same determination as I would my own.
I stand by that promise. If that means we have to strike, then we strike...at least we will be able to sleep with a clear conscience knowing that we did everything humanly possible to keep our word, our dignity and our promise."
"I too hope that we can resolve this dispute without such drastic measures but am beginning to believe that severe industrial action is our only hope.
12 months ago the company tried to intimidate me and my family by firing 51 people. What they succeeded in doing was to turn a moderate wife into a militant one who was so disgusted by mgt's behaviour that she is willing to move heaven and earth to ensure they do not get away with it.
I am afraid I am at a loss to understand the political position of Phil and his supporters. We are all a little scared, we are all certainly a little tired and frustrated. But to believe the same people who fired 51 colleagues are capable of genuine negotiation, to give them the benefit of the doubt, to honestly believe that a well-intentioned chat will have any impact at all, is more naive than I thought possible.
I spoke to the wife of a 49er a few weeks ago who was feeling pretty isolated and was worried about the upcoming election and the fact that Phil and his supporters on CPRUNE seemed more concerned about their "secure" jobs than they did about the plight of her family. I promised her that there were many more people in the AOA who would see this though and make sure her family regained their security and future. I promised her I would NEVER give up and would continue to fight for her family with the same determination as I would my own.
I stand by that promise. If that means we have to strike, then we strike...at least we will be able to sleep with a clear conscience knowing that we did everything humanly possible to keep our word, our dignity and our promise."
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Mole, you do it mate, go for it strike and see what happens. One of the non issues in all this, do the pilot body realise that 56% or so of the employees at CX earn less than 10 000 HKD a month? No other benefits, no housing etc. Your salaries seem obscene to these people, let alone the other conditions. Your support base is shrinking fast. I don't care what others think, I hear you say well in that case I say an early goodbye. That burst before still doesn't answer the question - why do we have 51 martyrs to union ineptitude?
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Flybygirl.
The two candidates opposing Nigel, standing on the "peace at all cost ticket" got even less support! Thats the nature of democracy.
By the way, A Cathay Pacific director has stated on news radio here in HK that the "Ban" is stopping "good" pilots from joining CX but that the pilots ignoring the ban and joining were "adequate". Thanks Tony.
The two candidates opposing Nigel, standing on the "peace at all cost ticket" got even less support! Thats the nature of democracy.
By the way, A Cathay Pacific director has stated on news radio here in HK that the "Ban" is stopping "good" pilots from joining CX but that the pilots ignoring the ban and joining were "adequate". Thanks Tony.
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Nudger, forget the company what about the effect on the local economy.
All you can say is how much CX made, you obviously feel they owe you something because they made money. Well that is between you and the company.
What is a bigger picture issue is the effect on those innocent ones who are hurt by CX when pax and cargo are inconsistently delivered to and from HK.
If the CX Pilot community wishes to be a part of the HK community then they should think about the long term as well as short term effects on others and not just themselves.
All you can say is how much CX made, you obviously feel they owe you something because they made money. Well that is between you and the company.
What is a bigger picture issue is the effect on those innocent ones who are hurt by CX when pax and cargo are inconsistently delivered to and from HK.
If the CX Pilot community wishes to be a part of the HK community then they should think about the long term as well as short term effects on others and not just themselves.
Last edited by Flybygirl; 9th Aug 2002 at 04:37.
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CCA despite the poor economy the union had commenced industrial action before anyone was fired. I think you need to get your facts straight.
You are implying that the action is a result of the sackings.
If you had a better attitude you would be more community minded, but since you choose to have selective memory that is your issue to deal with.
You are implying that the action is a result of the sackings.
If you had a better attitude you would be more community minded, but since you choose to have selective memory that is your issue to deal with.
Contracts Written on Ricepaper with Disappearing Ink
Actually the 56% or so of the employees at CX who earn less than 10 000 HKD a month and no other benefits, are watching very closely how the management are treating the pilots and how the management are reneging on the pilots' contracts.
This year the 56% have already had their 13th month salary taken off them by management.
The 56% also know that if the pilots are done over by a meglomaniac management, then there is absolutely no hope at all for any of the members of the remaining Cathay unions.
This year the 56% have already had their 13th month salary taken off them by management.
The 56% also know that if the pilots are done over by a meglomaniac management, then there is absolutely no hope at all for any of the members of the remaining Cathay unions.
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OK so there were some redundancies in CX and affiliated companies a while ago. But still very complimentary to CX management that they publicly stated, and kept their word, that no-one would be laid off after 9/11. Other airlines are still laying folk off, gardening leave etc. CX management accepted the fact that poor bottom line was acceptable for up to two years before they would do anything to the workforce. That sort of attitude engenders support and they have it. You don't like CX middle management, especially FOPS. When the call came out for volunteers for these positions did you apply? No of course you didn't, too comfortable. It is said you get the management and politicians you deserve - aint that the truth. And you have got it. Please don't rabbit on about the 49ers, different issue all together, their situation was caused by union ineptitude not CX mis-management. That CX action was regrettable but thoroughly understandable. The only hope has gone and that was a new union executive. Stalwart of you to show such support for ND and co. However the company are chuckling now with ND still at the reins. No reason to talk is there.
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flybygirl is it OK with you to to hold industrial action when the "local economy is doing well".
Also why didn't you quote;
They have the power to end this just as the pilots do.
Also why didn't you quote;
If the CX management community wishes to be a part of the HK community then they should think about the long term as well as short term effects on others and not just themselves.
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Too Little too late,
64% voting for Nigel is not enough, it shows how much ppl have lost faith in the direction the Union is going.
Strike? I dont think so, some of you guys are living in your own fantasy world. If there is a strike ballot, ask yourself this...are you willing??? It should have been done a year ago. This is now another desperate attempt to make an impact on the public b4 more ppl leave the union. Get real its not gonna happen the majority of guys dont have the guts, when it comes down to the day you have to choose. You guys should wake up and smeel the coffee. and stop your denial of the truth. if wot the Union has done is correct then why has so many ppl left? you can Rip into wot I am saying but the truth is the truth and it dosent matter wot you say but all you need to see is the union is built on support and if you dont have support then you are not representing the big majority of pilots therefore you are not doing the right thing for the pilots.
64% voting for Nigel is not enough, it shows how much ppl have lost faith in the direction the Union is going.
Strike? I dont think so, some of you guys are living in your own fantasy world. If there is a strike ballot, ask yourself this...are you willing??? It should have been done a year ago. This is now another desperate attempt to make an impact on the public b4 more ppl leave the union. Get real its not gonna happen the majority of guys dont have the guts, when it comes down to the day you have to choose. You guys should wake up and smeel the coffee. and stop your denial of the truth. if wot the Union has done is correct then why has so many ppl left? you can Rip into wot I am saying but the truth is the truth and it dosent matter wot you say but all you need to see is the union is built on support and if you dont have support then you are not representing the big majority of pilots therefore you are not doing the right thing for the pilots.
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The RIP,
One more time for those who don't understand democracy.
Nigels share of the vote increased
The voter turnout increased
The other two candidates added together didn't add up to Nigels vote
So if we stick to principals of democracy Nigel has a mandate , in fact he gets overwhelming support for his past policies and the so called silent majority that the management posters on this forum keep talking about dissappear.
The result of the vote is hardly surprising because Nigel and the GC were carrying out policies that the membership wanted!
Some questions, I don't know the answers but it would be fun to know.
In the UK how many people entitled to vote in the general election?
How many did vote?
how many voted for Blair?
Same for Bush in the USA.
I suspect that Nigel got a bigger mandate from his constituents than either of those two!
This doesnt change the fact that the membership now have to sh@t or get off the pot! I most certainly agree with that.
As I have stated before, I voted for Phil but am more than happy to do what it takes to defend my union either on this forum or against cx management.
(I'm off to bed)
One more time for those who don't understand democracy.
Nigels share of the vote increased
The voter turnout increased
The other two candidates added together didn't add up to Nigels vote
So if we stick to principals of democracy Nigel has a mandate , in fact he gets overwhelming support for his past policies and the so called silent majority that the management posters on this forum keep talking about dissappear.
The result of the vote is hardly surprising because Nigel and the GC were carrying out policies that the membership wanted!
Some questions, I don't know the answers but it would be fun to know.
In the UK how many people entitled to vote in the general election?
How many did vote?
how many voted for Blair?
Same for Bush in the USA.
I suspect that Nigel got a bigger mandate from his constituents than either of those two!
This doesnt change the fact that the membership now have to sh@t or get off the pot! I most certainly agree with that.
As I have stated before, I voted for Phil but am more than happy to do what it takes to defend my union either on this forum or against cx management.
(I'm off to bed)
Last edited by middle; 10th Aug 2002 at 02:39.
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Homework
So I've done some surfing and the results..
In the UK General Election of 2001.
The turnout was 59.4% of the people entitled to vote.
Of those votes cast Blair received 40.7% of the vote.
Take a thousand people entitled to vote in the UK Election.
1000 people entitled to vote
594 people voted
241 people voted for Blair
759 people didn't vote or voted for someone else.
For every one person that voted for Mr. Blair, 3.1 didn't
Blair is the Prime Minister of one of the worlds bastions of democracy, and rightly so. (Leaving Politics aside!)
Lets take the AOA membership.
Again taking the same thousand people.
1000 people entitled to vote
788 people voted
497 people voted for Nigel
503 people didn't vote or voted for someone else
Lets take the ALL the pilots in CX ( 1660, I think) because I know a lot of you will start screaming if I don't.
1000 people could have voted ( had they been in the AOA)
546 people voted
345 people voted for Nigel
654 people didn't vote or voted for someone else.
For every one person that voted for Nigel, 1.9 didn't vote or voted against. If you criticize this, well remember the two candidates standing against Nigel combined did worse!
Nigels share of the vote went up remember.
So lets just say that Nigel has more right to represent my UNION than Mr. Blair has to represent the people of the UK. Is everyone in the UK that didn't vote for Mr. Blair rushing in to renounce his or her citizenship? No the people of the UK have spoken and the system in the UK accepts that, as well as the governments of other countries.
Mr. Blair has a cabinet and an opposition to help him make the right decisions. Nigel has the same in the shape of his General Committee. The committee has widely varying views and so Nigel despite having a far larger mandate than Mr. Blair will have a harder job getting everything his own way.
I am sorry if this has bored a few of you but the usual management and anti AOA rhetoric has tried to insinuate that the election wasn't representative. Well I think I have shown that democracy isn't perfect but it works, and it works very well at the HKAOA.
So, moan away all you want, but don't tell me Nigel isn't the legitimate president of the HKAOA and that the policies don't represent the memberships wishes.
It's up to the members now.
(I'm off to bed)
In the UK General Election of 2001.
The turnout was 59.4% of the people entitled to vote.
Of those votes cast Blair received 40.7% of the vote.
Take a thousand people entitled to vote in the UK Election.
1000 people entitled to vote
594 people voted
241 people voted for Blair
759 people didn't vote or voted for someone else.
For every one person that voted for Mr. Blair, 3.1 didn't
Blair is the Prime Minister of one of the worlds bastions of democracy, and rightly so. (Leaving Politics aside!)
Lets take the AOA membership.
Again taking the same thousand people.
1000 people entitled to vote
788 people voted
497 people voted for Nigel
503 people didn't vote or voted for someone else
Lets take the ALL the pilots in CX ( 1660, I think) because I know a lot of you will start screaming if I don't.
1000 people could have voted ( had they been in the AOA)
546 people voted
345 people voted for Nigel
654 people didn't vote or voted for someone else.
For every one person that voted for Nigel, 1.9 didn't vote or voted against. If you criticize this, well remember the two candidates standing against Nigel combined did worse!
Nigels share of the vote went up remember.
So lets just say that Nigel has more right to represent my UNION than Mr. Blair has to represent the people of the UK. Is everyone in the UK that didn't vote for Mr. Blair rushing in to renounce his or her citizenship? No the people of the UK have spoken and the system in the UK accepts that, as well as the governments of other countries.
Mr. Blair has a cabinet and an opposition to help him make the right decisions. Nigel has the same in the shape of his General Committee. The committee has widely varying views and so Nigel despite having a far larger mandate than Mr. Blair will have a harder job getting everything his own way.
I am sorry if this has bored a few of you but the usual management and anti AOA rhetoric has tried to insinuate that the election wasn't representative. Well I think I have shown that democracy isn't perfect but it works, and it works very well at the HKAOA.
So, moan away all you want, but don't tell me Nigel isn't the legitimate president of the HKAOA and that the policies don't represent the memberships wishes.
It's up to the members now.
(I'm off to bed)
Last edited by middle; 10th Aug 2002 at 03:02.
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Who cares what the poms do? Who cares if they vote for a characterless, used car salesman. That's just their psyche, can't blame them really. Who else could they have voted for? The relevance in comparison to our situation here leaves some to the imagination. Why don't you do the US elections to, Bush or Clinton - in each case they did not get a majority of people in their favour, some mandate. Are you just proving that all elections are a farce and we get the leaders we deserve?
The Reverend
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Nigel is a pom, John Findlay is a pom, Nick Rhodes is a pom, Turnbull is a pom and the greatest of them all is Graeme Ogilvie, who I hear is slated to "run" Air Hong Kong once more.